Re:Zion reality another Matrix
My thoughts:
Zion will prove to be another matrix. Neo proved that when he shut the sentinels down and went coma.
As to the ending
Machines created humans.
I thought Reloaded was TERRIFIC!..
Two questions though (for now)
spoilers
-Remember when two captains, left behind to receive a message from the Oracle, which was to be delivered to Neo, where trying to exit the matrix? As they were exiting, one of them put the enveloped message in his jacket pocket, picked up the phone and was gone.
My question is how could he bring that massage physically into ‘the real world’. So what?.. he got unplugged and magically found a message in his hand?
The only thing I could think of to explain this is; the act of placing the message in his pocket allowed the operator to upload it from the matrix as the captain was exiting.
Then that info was downloaded onto a physical thing which was to be given to Neo later on in the movie… anyone have another opinion?
Also,
-Remember when an agent Smith killed one of the captains who was trying to exit ‘the matrix’ and picked up the phone instead?
That agent then entered Zion and tried to stab Neo as he was departing… but before that he cut his hand (and started bleeding).
Why did he do that, why did he cut his hand?
About Neo’s coma …
I remember when I saw that, the first thing I thought was “OMG he woke up yet again… HOLY CRAP…â€
I interpreted his coma as him waking up to another level of consciousness, brought on by the sudden shock of discovering the truth about ‘the real world’ first hand ( 
get it … cause he used his hand… 
) and his ability to bend the rules there as well.
To those who think it is just another Matrix, prima facie I too thought it was going to be another Matrix, but within seconds I realized that it is exactly what they want us to think. Too many movie have played on that angle, a world within a world within a world, a reality within a reality etc. I think the Wacho. Bros. were betting on getting the message across to the audience that magical things can happen in real life if only we believe bad enough. I think they will keep to reality and show that Neo IS really the one because he can not only change the matrix as he sees fit, but he can also change reality. To the ONE, there should be no borders.
Silver stated:
Hmmm…good question. I’m not sure what to tell you, but I know playing Enter the Matrix would help you get some insight (won’t spoil it for ya). Much of the plot in the movie that never gets portrayed, is portrayed in the game. One of which is the disk scene.
Furthermore, one idea could be that they weren’t brought back to the real world, but instead they were put into a safe computer construct in which they deciphered the disk. Similar to the computer construct (exterior to the matrix) that we see when the gates of zion open and there are people in a white room pressing transparent screens.
Silver stated:
In my opinion he was revelling in the emotion of pain, especially because of his line in the first movie about our existance being experienced through pain and misery, which is why the first Matrix failed and they lacked the programming language to create the perfect world. I also thought that maybe he was doing it because he knew Neo was coming, but his new body was making his feel anxiety, fear, and nervousness at doing such an unspeakable thing as trying to kill the one. Having these feelings he may not know any other way of getting rid of them but to harm himself enough for the pain to take over and the fear to subside so he could make his attack. I know one other person who believes that he was harming himself because he hated this reality more than the Matrix. He didn’t have respect from his comrades as was illustrated during the council meeting. His life and purpose in the situation would make no sense, since they were all their to defeat the AI, which is the last thing Smith would want to do. So he was angry and wanted to get out of this body and got pleasure by mutilating it.
Silver stated:
I couldn’t agree more sista. 
What’s your take?
I think you guys might find this article interesting; not to mention disturbing.
No Skeptic, you’re not the only one who thought it was a poor film. Perhaps as a stand-alone movie it would have met my standards, but it definatly does not live up to the legend of the original Matrix. I’m sorry to say I was more then a little disappointed with it.
I thought the entire cloning of Agent Smith bit was rather useless, and the silly one-liners he kept saying to his newly-cloned ‘other’ selfs only made it worse. In the original Matrix Agent Smith was one of -if not THE- coolest ‘bad guy’ I’ve ever seen, nearly as cool as Neo himself. After Reloaded, however, he just seems foolish. They took away all of his mystery, darkness, and general Smithness that made him so unique in the first film so that now he reminds me of a villain out of a comic book or some such. That’s not even to mention the ridiculous fight seen w/Neo and like a billion Smiths.
Speaking of fight scenes, I was again disappointed. The first Matrix set the standard of fight scenes upon it’s release. As a sequel, it is Reloaded’s job to not meet, but surpass the standard and it failed to do so. Sure they were alright I guess, but who cares about alright? We want to be awed, we expect to be awed. I’ve seen fights as good in Bulletproof Monk, and twice as good in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.
As for Neo’s power, I found it inconsistant. How fast must he be able to move if he can travel from one side of the world to another in 10 minutes? Obviously very very very fast. He can stop bullets, and bring people back to life with a kiss. And yet, when faced with opposition, he still resorts to karate chops and drop kicks. Am I the only one who thinks that a little ilogical? Obviously, as an action film, it is expected to have action, but for the sake of the story line I think they should have saved the pesky fighting scenes for Trinity and Morpheous. Or if they absolutly needed to make Neo fight, it should have been something completely different then the traditional martial arts we’ve become accoustumed to seeing in… well like every movie following the original matrix. Too powerful? No I don’t think they made him powerful enough.
But that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Oh and the skit on the MTV awards were hilarious. Will Farrel always cracks me up.
Matthew, thanx for the link. I thought the article was interesting. Personally, I’d love to have a look at the movies that didn’t get banned in Egypt this year and compare. I was also wondering, if maybe you had access to info about the strict criteria movies go through to get into Egypt, if so please let me know.
What’s your take?
I did a google search and found this article. It gives a rather thorough account of what is permissable and what’s not. Here’s the link:
http://www.metimes.com/cens/censored.htm
It’s interesting to know that Spanish-Inquisition type behavior is still practiced in what I had always believed to be a free country. I think these people need to read Milton’s Areopagitica.
I saw the movie last night. One of the advantages of seeing a movie later is that you hear the bad reviews and reduce your expectations, “Gee, it wasn’t that bad.”
I haven’t read the articles presented yet, and I’ve only perused Pax Vitae’s telling comment, but I think he’s on the right track. What I think they’re doing is Helgelian Pragmatism (the cameo by Cornell West is telling here).
What you have is a series of oppositions:
Neo/Smith
–Yes, the religious aspect is there. Smith give a whole new meaning to the phase, “I am Legion”
Matrix/Zion
–The world of the mind v. the world of physicality. The dance scene is an attempt to show the physical nature of human life.
Architect/Oracle
–Actor v. Observer. I loved this addition as I never like the Oracle in the first place. Are they working together or in contention. Hard to say, but I suspect that they are indeed setting something or at least the stage for something like Milton’s “On Christian Doctrine” rather than “Paradise Lost”.
Morpheus/ex-girlfriend
–Faith v. Logic. I laughed out loud when she said the name of her ship was “The Logos.” I suspect she’ll become more pivotal in the third movie.
Where I disagree with PV (unless I’ve misread him) is in the belief that the war is over. I think the goal, the unstated goal, is the synthesis of man and machine (not there mere dependence) and I think that synthesis will occur between Smith and Neo thereby breaking the chain (of six one’s no less). The key factor in this synthesis will be trinity as, no doubt, her name indicates, it is the third factor that allows us to break from the antimonies presented above. The difference is that PV sees the synthesis as already happened and I see it as yet to come.
As far as the real/matix dichotomy, I would like them to just slam it in everybody’s face, “That it doesn’t matter!” but that ain’t gonna satisfy most people (an no doubt my bias is present in that that is what I’ve been arguing since the movie came out). So, I suspect they’ll pull a Phil Dick on us (or if you want a Luis Borges), have the new man/machine discover the real world but leaving the question of the reality/matrix undetermined.
Another possibility is to do something like what Gene Wolfe did in his “Book of the New Sun” and show that all of this is a continual process, to take the Neitzchean idea of ‘eternal recurrence’ seriously. But that would be a dramatic letdown from my view of things.
And of course I could be completely wrong, I’ve only seen the second one once.
On a further note, it seems clear that the distinction between reality and the matrix is not as distinct as many have stated it. Trinity kisses Neo (Real/Matrix), Neo fixes her heart (Matrix/Real) so the realms influence and affect each other regardless of what you want to call them. I’m not as comfortable as Magius is about the Matrix giving someone the ability to cirumvent physical laws (so far, no one has died in the read world and then been resuscitated), but it is a possibility. What would happen to humans in the real world if we were somehow permanently plugged in with the ability to freely traverse one world or the other?
Immortality?
It’s a question that hasn’t been answered yet, but it is a possibility.
I hope not though.
Yes, I agree with your interpretation, yet still believe the war is over. The idea of Man & AI synthesis was the main theme of the movie ‘Ghost in the Shell’ which had a very strong influence on the first Matrix movie. So I definitely think you’re onto something!
I watched the film for the first time yesterday and was generally suprised.
Matrix is massive, and all the moan’s ive been hearing of people saying it not as good as the first one. It was alright. It was slow. Well that was always going to happen film’s-naturally lose some originality( like come on… the first film he realise’s his THE ONE), i thought it was a good film.
Agent Smith/ Mr Anderson= What a fight with that metal bar! wow was the word when i was watching it. Agent smith really does have some affinity with neo, the fact that they both killed each other in the first-shows that something was going on with matrix/reality interplay. Plus agent smith is class! and working for the oracle.
When neo fight’s those agent’s near the start, they say “YEA let’s seabass him, his only human”, So neo fight’s them and win’s without doubt but he say’s while fighting them “umm upgrades” hinting that reality was for him the matrix.
When there walking toward’s a lift in the real world and laddo with the “im going to cut my hand” gives him the spoon; is that all the oracles doing?
She seem’s to be more evil than expected, neo seems like the 0.1% she cant predict–who’s the rock hard chinese golden glow man?
This architect trying to get a cause, just as that french thing wouldnt stop ranting on about it; but the dreadlock twins, will open up the next film but particularly architect and oracle are at war with each other. This just leaves that french man? not sure missed his start.
WITHOUT A DOUBT Neo is going to super ultra transformer go-go power ranger’s style in the final part. One thing that i wanted more from Neo was that “wait a minute, a used to be a loser computer person who was confused as hell” kind of thing going on- but i suppose he had to save everyone else all the time anyways, so he probably didnt have time been the One and all.
Agent smith could do anything! The concept’s we were coming up with during the film;
The best one was just blow Neo up with a nuclear weapon-- see if he takes it. Along others more silly than world/reality/matrix world that the film was
about.
Morpheus the general, but lose’s it at the end like his lost his faith or something(lusty sex seens in the next film, with his sexy ex-girlfriend).
Trinity is the “trinity” as it’ll be Neo’s reason that changes the state of affair’s that she’s certainly in the middle ( remember the sexy women with that french goomba ).
Anyweres ive been looking forward to seeing it and finally i have; it was more watching with other people who kept talking over it. Four-three years of waiting, predicting and conjuring story lines up didnt make it disappointing as the papers made it out. Soon the third will be out and lord of the ring’s third film, so all in all im watching it again.
I agree that part of why we do not love the second movie as much as the first is because of our love for the slacker/computer hacker who must adapt or change his surroundings. The film fit this nitch with the first, the second was more of an action nitch
I consider Reloaded to be more of a set-up for the third movie, and not so much an ‘entity’ in itself, so I can’t quite compair it to the first. There really aren’t any major lettdowns in my opinion, both are different and both are great…
i posted in the wrong place.
On reloaded; ive seen it again-pissed though.
Now it’s all changed, trinity is the matrix, been the cause.
Morpheus is after france(but im still hugely unsure about it cause ive been massively stoned both time’s ive seen it).
I’ve deleted the post in question, as it’s already posted in the correct topic.
Hi,
Just a quick question about Matrix Reloaded. I saw it last night and was impressed, definitely provoked some thoughts in me.
SPOILER AHEAD
My question is this: In the scene where Neo massages Trinity’s heart she is brought back to life. From what I understood from the first Matrix, when you are hurt in the Matrix, your mind is so convinced it is being hurt, it transfers the wound/pain to the real world. The same rule applies to dying, when you suffer a wound so great in the matrix that would cause you to die in the real world, your mind cannot overcome this sense of dying.
Ok, now we’ve established that rule, how then is Trinity bought back to life if her mind is unaware of it? Neo is not really massaging her heart because they are both in the matrix. If her mind cannot see that her heart is being massaged back to life, how can it be transferred to the real world since that is the connector between them.
Does that makes sense?
- ben
I was under the impression that your real self isn’t complelty dead, because you sub-concious is still aware of the Matrix. Not only that, but when Neo was stroking her heart, he was in essence … … . . damn, I can’t explain it.
Ben, you’re just now watching Reloaded? Do you also read yesterday’s newspaper?
Anyhow, to answer your question- signals from the Matrix enter your body, the same way signals from your mind enter the matrix. When Trintiy “died”, Neo massaged her heart, and those “massaging” signals entered the dead brain of Trinity. Meaning, that the electrical pulses revived her. I suppose it’s analogous to a heart being shocked into beating again with a defibulator. That’s the way I explained away the loophole anyhow 
.
I love finding loopholes in movies. Sad thing is that if it is a movie you like, you try to give solutions for it. Instead of admitting that the people that wrote the movie were on crack when they tried to plot out the movie.
I think you guys are confused about what it means to die. There is no clear cut off between living and dying, they just sort of fade into one another. It is possible to ‘bring someone back to life’ once their heart has stopped beating. What you’re saying is like saying anyone in the matrix who was sent to a hospital in a critical condition, can’t be ‘brought back to life’ once their heart has stopped. When as you all know, thats not true.
So no loop hole I’m afraid.