Morality and Dating

I am a slave to morality. All of my friends regard me as the most morally aligned person they know. But there are times where it seems I am too moral. Times where being moral actually results in me not having a better time. These times are when I am dealing with women. This sounds weird, but let me explain. In fact, I have a perfect example from a few years ago.

I was nineteen, and I went to Las Vegas with a buddy to visit some of his friends out there. By chance one of those friends turned out to be a drop dead gorgeous 16 year old girl. As luck would have it (and to make a long story short) this girl wanted to have sex with me. Being Mr. Morality, I quickly deterred her advances as I thought it was illegal. But then my friend’s buddies threw me a curveball. In Las Vegas Nevada, the consenting age for sex is 16. It was legal. I was now free to legally have sex with this bombshell of a girl. But I still felt it was wrong. In fact my argument for not having sex with her was “I’m not going to allow the state of Nevada to decide what is morally acceptable to me”. Basically this girl did not come from a healthy family. She was in foster care and had a generally troubled childhood. I felt that if I had sex with her, I would be taking advantage of her because she did not yet have the foresight to realize that what she wanted was not in her best interest.

My friends argued “who am I to decide what is in her best interest?” And I think that is my question to all of you. Should I have given the girl more credit that she was able to make a mature decision? Or a better question: should I have even cared?

It’s not black and white morally speaking, as the more mature people should “protect” people who are naïve (I’m not talking about age, just personal maturity). The question is would it have been taking advantage of the woman?

I think sex between consenting adults is always moral, as sex is fun and if the people enjoy it then what’s the harm, (of course protection should always be used to stop complications). Our society is hung-up on sex, seeing it sometimes as something dirty seedy, not respectable. But it is a fundament driving force that shapes our entire life, some would go as far as saying it’s our reason to exist. So that being said, how can it be a bad thing?

Most of the problems with sex come from objectification of women and men as mere object for sexual gratification. Is this wrong? The reason I have to ask this, is because there are lots of people who go out on a Friday and Saturday night only looking to have sex, and are seeking like mind people to share in the experience. If both people want to have sex for the sake of personal pleasure is it then morally wrong? I’d say no. But it’s a difference story if one person is trying to build a long-term relationship, while the other is only in it for the sex, as this is deceitful. This is what I would find as objectification, as only one person is looking for sex, the other is really looking for a relationship and is using sex as part of the building process. Sex to me is only moral when both people are having sex for the same reasons, if it’s personal pleasure, so long as this is what both want then fine, if it’s both trying to build a relationship then that’s fine. But if the individuals involved see this act of sex as something different then the other person does, then there’s a morality problem. This also goes for group sex, swings, or any other sex related act. So long as everybody is getting treated the way they want to it’s okay. Of course this goes against almost every world religion, but that’s a completely different story.

So back to the starting question: Would it have been taking advantage of the woman? Did she want it just as much as you? Was she mature enough to make this decision? As when I was growing up I new many people in their early 20’s who weren’t mature enough to be having sex, so it’s more about mental maturity then age, but of course you do need to have a legal protection to stop the abuse of young teenagers who think they know it all.

Ultimately whatever way you look at it, she is always going to be the one that got away. I know I have many, as it’s taken me along time to get over my initially very religious attitudes towards sex, to seeing sex as something fun that two consenting adults can both share and enjoy, sex isn’t about pleasuring yourself, that’s masturbation, sex is about pleasuring your partner and if you do that you’ll always have a healthy and moral sex life.

I don’t see that as being too moral, it just means you are consistent and comitted to your morals, which in my opinion is a very redeeming characteristic. Doing things that are moral and pleasureable is perhaps not as difficult as those that are moral and deny pleasure.

Perhaps living in a society where the age of consent was not 16 has conditioned you to think it is immoral to sleep with a 16 year old girl? This is just a speculation, being the enlightened thinker that you are Matthew i’m sure it is not the only reason!

I don’t think this is about ‘giving credit’. You are not her parents or friends, you were to be the person she was going to sleep with so you were directly involved. It’s obvious that you felt uncomfortable and from previous knowledge of this girl you believed there was a possibility that she wanted to sleep with you for the wrong reasons. For that reason alone, I think it was a wise decision not sleep with her because the positive outcome of actually having sex with her would probably not outweigh the negative that could come out of it.

The fact is, it’s not the end of the world that you didn’t sleep with her. Yes she was hot, yes she was willing, but it could have turned very sour for the very reasons you gave. In my opinion, if there’s any doubt in your mind about sex, don’t do it because it spells danger.

Definitely. I think it shows a superior sense of morality to consider not only your feelings in a given situation, but that of others. I think you made the right decision based on the right reasons.

I really appreciate the responses. I’m gathering that Pax and Ben are speaking from an experienced and mature perspective. I think my post represents a fear that I may regret passing up oportunities that I will not be able to capitalize on in the future (i.e when I’m married).
Ben- your response has (atleast for the time being ) reassured me that I did indeed make the correct decision. As far as being too moral, perhaps that was not the most precise wording I could have used. Now that I am reflecting on what I wrote, I probably should have stated “I ponder whether I should be more selfish”.

Pax Stated:

I’m not sure. If I decide that I interpreted the situation correctly, I will not feel that I let her “get away” but I will feel that I did not contribute to a girl’s already turmoiled life. But if I later change my outlook on morality, then she will be the one that “got away”.

Pax also stated:

I’m still undecided as to whether two people can just ‘casually’ have sex. I think no matter how much someone says they won’t mind “just having sex”, they are only ignoring the fact that a very deep attachment is made when a couple has intercourse. Unless you’re willing to be in a committed relationship, I think it will just be bad news in the end. Someone always seems to grow more attached (which is never good). Altough I do accept that there are times (like spring break ) when I can honestly say that I had a great time for that one evening. But afterwards, I would have an uncomfortable feeling inside of me. Whether this is the result of deep religious attitudes, or possibly something entirely ‘natural’ I haven’t yet decided. But if I ever come to the conclusion you have Pax, I’m going to have a lot of regret coming my way

I think I phrased that wrongly, what I mean is: No matter what you decide, if you live a reflective life you will revisit this memory on more then one occasion. And depending on your current outlook on morality what you would do now might be different from what you did then (but not necessarily, it depends on character). Even though you did the right thing, there can still be a form of regret… if only “something” was different, then I would have been able to share a wonderful experience, etc… But if you where someone who didn’t see sex as something special and had lots of sexual partners then you would more then light not spend much time thing about what you missed as you’ll to busy getting more.

That’s a very subjective comment, as I know many people who would say it doesn’t have any deep attachment at all and the only deep attachment is what I choose to place on it. Sex is a physical act, like rubbing your hands together, the only difference being it has the ability to create life. Please excuse this personal comment, but you seem to be a person who would only use sex as something to help with the building of a relationship, and sex outside of a relationship is seen as somehow inappropriate. It would seem that sex is inseparable from a relationship. Healthy sex can only occur as part of a relationship, while sex for the fun of it on a one-night stand is dirty. Is it wrong to give into desire? (I know that the situation discussed isn’t like this, as you choose on different moral grounds)

I don’t live with regret; yes I look back and think about it, but not with regret. I have always chosen what was right for me at that time in my life, and while I know now I would do it differently that doesn’t mean I have regrets. It just means in this world filled with grey sometimes there isn’t much of a difference between what is right and what is wrong.

I can understand how you came to that conclusion about me Pax. I apologize for not being too clear. I don’t believe that sex outside of a relationship is inappropriate by any means. From my experience many people think they can handle having sex outside of a relationship, but come to find that they really can’t. My concern arises when I notify girls that I’m not looking for a relationship (before we have sex), and they ultimately realize that they really wanted one- and not casual sex. I find myself in quite a quandary, as I feel responsible for determining whether or not a girl simply wants sex, or just thinks she does. The last thing I want to do is have sex with a girl and have her crave the emotional attachment that I’m not willing to provide at this time in my life.

By no means did I intend to imply that you lived with regret. I was just trying to make a joke. I apologize if that is how I was interpreted. What I meant was that if in the future I concluded I was thinking about the needs of these girls too much, I would have many regrets about my decisions (implying that I’m passing up sex left and right, that was the funny part ). I imagine we have the same view on regret: while we may act differently now, it took those experiences to learn what we wanted.

from a girl’s perspective…

matthew e. you seem to be incredibly effected by the responses/actions/situations of your partner to the extent that it seems to be a major influence of your actions in a relationship. you wrote that you didn’t sleep with the 16 year old because:

and then you spoke how you are hesitant about casual sex because:

i know i’m taking things out of context and i apologize for what seems to be gross generalization. but i think, besides what are probably incredibly very good looks, one of the reasons that all these girls are attracted to you is b/c you’re obviously so sensitive to their feelings. i would reconsider, personally, being this affected by a partner to the extent that it seems to paralyze your actions. do what you like and the rest will follow.

To trix-

Interstingly enough, I have never spoke to a girl about my apparent dilemna. Funny that you advocate “I should do what I like and that the rest will follow”. Would you mind giving the reasons behind your suggestion?

matthew e. – are you looking for a defense of epicurianism? or liberalism, perhaps? look, when it comes to relationships that are at the beginning, i think it is important that you stick to who you are and what you want (Pax argued this point well, i think). stopping to assess for the other person, who they are and what they want, is dangerous. you’re also not giving enough credit to the girl. no offense, but the 16 year old might have more to the story than you think and sleeping with her might have helped her out in ways that you could have overlooked (i.e. looking to make an ex-boyfriend jealous, etc). furthermore, it is incredibly benifical at the start of a relationship to remain true to who you are, so that way, your partner can assess for themselves if they want to be with you. by self-censoring your actions in advance cheats the girl from knowing the real ‘matthew e’.

First off I just think that last comment about getting to know the real “Matthew” was not exactly the most informed statement I’ve ever heard.

Afterall, we are talking a casual sex and on to the next fish type scenario here. What I derived and I think is apparent to readers at this stage of the discussion is commitment, which of course must be the key to the contention (with a little age-maturity factor on the side pushing the conservative to a majority vote, if you will) - the whole core to good Matt’s dilemma of moral conscience was that he was unprepared to provide emotional support and attachment in the case that the girl’s intentions became skewed by her hormones and the night after followed her own deeper desires through to a web of complications.

Secondly, Matt should definitely stick to his morals, although his laurels (or maybe I should say hers) is the real hot spot in this excursion to the room of the Libertine lover.

In fact, I have to thank Matt for sharing his problem of conscience on-line, being that I myself, here in Quebec Canada (where the age of consent is somewhere in the area of 15-16 too) have run up against the same scenario and contention, of a beast-with-two-backs type flavor and class.

And I’m worried, Matt. I only hope that the conservatism I myself advocate (along with the minority following this subject area) can provide enough of a stronghold that my morality might standup against the tide of a feminine touch.

Anyway nothing done, nothing for which to be said. And indeed nothing more shall be said. Although the joys of the inference leave trails of questions in their wake.

Anyway, cheers to you. I don’t know much about morality a priori. Objectivity is somewhere out there and I’m reaching. So all the best to you and to anyone whose upbraiding concerns mirror those of my own.

Bequisto.

Bequisto wrote-

Fire away, friend. I do not wish to be responsible for the sleepless nights of an articulate Canadian, because questions I fathered persist in plaguing his mind.

Bequisto also wrote-

I’m finishing up a course in Social Ethics, and I am beginning to realize that there may not be such a thing as moral objectivity. An example that demonstrates my suspicions follows: several doctors conclude that a pregnant woman will not survive child birth. Surgery will be equally as hazardous to her health. If she decides to proceed with giving birth (either through surgery or naturally), the baby will live, at the cost of her demise. Who should live? I just can’t seem to find any objectivity as far as how to proceed in this example. Perhaps flipping a coin would be objective.

Any thoughts?

Matthew I just read your first post and decided that was one of the most mature things I have ever heard a nineteen year old say. You have to trust your feelings, they are the only thing that can tell you wrong or right for sure. You sensed there was something wrong about the situation and you backed away. Good decision. Think about it, if a beautiful “knock-out” wanted you, chances are it will happen again and maybe next time you will feel right about it. Don’t let macho idiots tell you that you wimped out, alot of those people want to see a good, moral man fall just so they can label the world as “bad” or “corrupt”.

thank you for those words, I’d never have thought they might come out of a man. I think they are something of a best expressed words ever. I’ll use them as an argument in a concluding word of our reationship with my ex., if we happen to have one. i’ve saved this part, it’ll be safe in my computer.thanks again.

and, I don’t think it may come out of the religious attitudes, it is quite normal, perhaps most of men have those attitudes, they are just obliged to hide them (so as not to be mocked by their friends or something). my ex wasn;t religious and he still had the same echo in him. but he didn;t listen to it.

matt -

i have no answere for you. i think that every situation is different and everyone has their own view on sex. it says a lot about a person when they actually take time to think about a very intimate act before they do it. even more so for a 19 year old.

my answere to your question on weather two people can just have casual sex? personally, i have had casual sex before with someone i knew very well and secretely had a crush on in high school…the next day he went back to school and i never talked to him again. i didn’t exactly regret it, but i knew that it was not the best thing for me at the time.

i guess it is possible to have casual sex with someone, but not everyone. i guess it depends on the person and situation. is it moraly right? i think that is in the eye of the beholder. some will argue to death that it is wrong, and some will argue that there is nothing wrong with it. it comes down to a choice. it comes down to that little voice in your head.

it is very important to let that other person know your intentions.

i think it is easier to have casual sex with someone you just met than with a friend. with friends it gets difficult and sometimes messy. there is always attachment. but at the same time, it is not always safe to have sex with someone you just met. i don’t know…it is too complicated.

personally, i try to steer clear from the casual sex situations, it just causes too much stress in my head. you never know what kind of disease someone might have, or you never know if you are about to sleep with a complete psycho who will get too attached and hunt you down. you never know. you could even get some complete stranget pregnant.

just think before you do anything.

YOU ARE NOT A MAN. YOU SHOULD HAVE FUCKED HER BRAINS OUT. WHY BE MORAL THAT EXTENT? FOR WHAT REASON?

Ok ok, I know replies like that mean nothing to you, but if your friends didn’t tell you that they should have. Here is my real argument as to why you messed up.

YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT MORALITY IS. No one knows. Hell philosophers are still arguing about if there is such a thing as morality or not.

So basically you didn’t get laid, she didn’t get laid, you got blasted by your friends.For what? A false sense of self propriety in being a moral person. A utilitarian could argue that you were being IMMORAL in this situation as you were denying happiness.

In conclusion were you really acting moral? You don’t know. And you just denied yourself pleasure.

I dunno, something about this situation has really bothered me…

Probably because I’ve had and am having a similar one right now.

Either way, it’s … you’re putting it off… but I think I finally realized the problem. It wasn’t that she was 16 and wasn’t ready. She was making the advancement, she was pushing into you, she didn’t seem to present even one iota of interest in a relationship (or so I interpret from your post). But you did not want to do it.

I doubt think it was because she was 16 that bothered you. I think that was more projection. I think it’s because you weren’t ready to become emotionally attatched. And while you did say that this was the case as well, the age is merely as mitigating factor of the real point.

Right? It was mature for you to be upset, but if you keep fooling yourself into a more stringent ruleset than you may be willing to uphold later, you’re going to be a very easily discouraged person later on. This is the development process for unnecessary inhibitions. At least, in my limited experience that seems to be the case.

Am I off base? I can’t tell… but that’s what’s bothering ME in MY life right now…getting over these inhibitions and ideals… and realizing the myth that women are all about emotional attatchment and guys are all about sex is not black and white true for ALMOST EVERY case. Women… women are just as capable of being shallow sex bots as men are.

In times like these I do not believe that knowledgeable people can still be so ignorant. Bill, your statement does no good to society, in fact it is that type of mentality that leads to wars because individuals are afraid to question the impact of their actions.

There is such a thing as morality, everything you do is based on a set of principles, whether conscious or not you do live by your own principles or principles you borrowed from others. Principles are either right or wrong depending upon the individual.

I commend Matt for considering the impact his actions will have on another human being, because without that attitude we would all be dead. You may not even be here today Bill. Sex is such a beautiful thing, but when we trivialize it and use it to hurt others( whether male or female), it becomes dirty and dangerous

What do you believe as a person?, forget what the philosophers say or what the utilitarians think. We use words to run from questioning the validity of our actions. What is pleasure? is that the same as happiness? who cares what his friends think? he has a mind of his known, his brain does not belong to his friends. If a person does only what others think is appropriate then that person is a “slave”. I do not think a life like that is a happy one.

Does the fact that women are also “sex bots” justify the action? Learn to think and feel for yourself. If you do anything, let it be because you wanted to, not because everyone else thinks it is the appropriate thing to do. And if you feel it is not the right thing, let it be because you think so. Quite frankly, I am absolutely sick of this “think as I do” and “do as I do” mentality.

Wait, you’re sick of this think as I think mentality?

Sooo…should I think more like you instead and also be sick of the think as I think mentality.

It’s not a mentality, man. It’s a way of life. It’s argumentation. It’s trying to prove yourself wrong by failing to prove others wrong.

As for this mystical morality. I dunno… to me… sex is NOT a beautiful thing. It’s often awkward and goofy, almost comical. It’s sticky, and wet, and gross. It’s smelly and putrid at times, and I don’t see why I’m still so obsessed with it. It’s not love, though…I can tell you that.

You can believe what you want, but sex is sex is sex. It’s something you do to prevent yourself from humping knotted trees out of animal frustration.

Make love to your husband. Until then, have as much raw sex as you can.

By the way, this is the “new Rafa” speaking. When I was 18-20, I thought like Matt E. As a result, I remained a virgin. I got over it, though.

Q wrote

I never said he shouldn’t question his actons! I am telling him to question his actions! To stop assuming that what he is doing is the morally correct thing!

Wait, so now you are a relativist? Seems like you are contradicting yourself.

I never said he shouldn’t consider her feelings. She wanted to have sex. It was he who decided that he knew what was best for (that to me is not considering her feelings). And he wouldn’t have been using it for the intention of hurting her…so i don’t know where you get that from. Although like Rajafar said there is probably some very underlying principles at play here. I think he may be a little twisted.

Q wrote

In the words of Socrates…I know that I am not wise. Which is better than a person that thinks he is wise but is really not. Is pleasure that same as happiness? Well they are both just words that are not very well defined. So you would have to define them first.

Q wrote

I hope you realize that you are being hypocritical. If you are telling someone live as they think and this is what you do then you are telling them to “do as you do”. Besides this is so inherently stupid. What if I feel black people are inferior. Should I just keep in believing that? Not caring what anyone else has to say about it? What if no one tried to impose our own beliefs on Nazi Germany. Let’s just let them believe what they want. You see what I am saying?

Well, some interesting points have been made by everyone.

Rafajafar had a good insight, as I was probably not emotionally ready myself at the time to have sex with her. Still, I was concerned about taking adavantage of that girl more than I was worried about having sex. If she was 18 (hell, maybe even 17) I would have done it. But she wasn’t- she had just turned 16. Not many girls that have just turned 16 really know what they’re doing. She was probably having sex at such a young age because she was molested as a child, or had no father in her life (which was most likelythe case, as she was brought up different foster homes, etc.) Even still, now that I’m 24, I still wouldn’t have had sex with that girl. I’ve had enough sex to realize it’s not always the glamorous act it’s cracked up to be. Having sex with her probably would have been mediocre at best- at worst, I could have confused or warped that girl even more than she was already. I’m just personally not a fan of taking risks with other people’s livelihoods, especially when it’s so easy to go out and get laid.

It’s funny because a similar thing occurred during my Spring Break this year. I was in Orlando for a night, and ended with a girl from the bar back at my room. I found out that she was only 18 (apparently all the bars in Orlando are 18 and over). But hell, she’s 18, she’s in a bar, she knows what she’s doing. We had drunk sex, it was mediocre, and I woke up to her phone number on the table. Do I know if this girl was mature enough to know what she was doing? Not really, but if she wasn’t, she’s definitely going to be better at dealing with it then a 16 year old.

So Bill, there is nothing wrong with having casual sex, I don’t disagree with you. But you have to admit that a bit of maturity is necessary in order to have it. Where you draw the line and where I do is just different. I’m sure you have a limit as well. Would you have sex with a 13 year old girl that was ready and willing? I imagine not (but don’t answer, because I’m not too sure).