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Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:14 am
by Bob
Dasein (German pronunciation: [ˈdaːzaɪn]) is a German word that means "being there" or "presence" (German: da "there"; sein "being"), and is often translated into English with the word "existence". It is a fundamental concept in the existential philosophy of Martin Heidegger, particularly in his magnum opus Being and Time. Heidegger uses the expression Dasein to refer to the experience of being that is peculiar to human beings. Thus it is a form of being that is aware of and must confront such issues as personhood, mortality and the dilemma or paradox of living in relationship with other humans while being ultimately alone with oneself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasein


A strange thought to me after awakening this morning and it was concerned with the use of this word. I would, quite naturally, associate dasein with animal life, lacking consciousness, but in fact it is used exactly the other way around. The experience of being that is peculiar to human beings is due to consciousness, and therefore dasein relates to that experience.

What then would we describe as a being without consciousness? The reason I ask is because I had an experience about twenty years ago that worried us for some time. According to my wife, I awoke and washed, had breakfast and drove off to work. The thing that was strange for her was that I was less talkative than usual. At work, I took over from the night shift. Again, I was less talkative than usual but didn’t seem impaired in any way. I then walked down the ward and in a patients room I suddenly became conscious that I didn’t know how I arrived at work. I looked out of the window to check if I had come by car. That was the case.

The question arises, whether I wasn’t conscious through this episode, or did I lose my memory? I can’t remember any part of it. It does, however, illustrate the fact that consciousness is having memories and thoughts of the future, whereas the state I seem to have been in was only concerned with the present and seems to have been either habit or instinct. I would have called this state dasein, if it wasn’t already used for the state of consciousness.

What do you think?

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:58 am
by Karpel Tunnel
Bob wrote:A strange thought to me after awakening this morning and it was concerned with the use of this word. I would, quite naturally, associate dasein with animal life, lacking consciousness, but in fact it is used exactly the other way around. The experience of being that is peculiar to human beings is due to consciousness, and therefore dasein relates to that experience.
I am not quite sure what you mean by consciousness here. And I am not quite sure how Dasein is involved, either with animals or with your story.

What do you think?
It could have been a minor fugue state:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugue_state

It could have been Transient Global Amnesia....
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20378531

Though really, these are descriptive, not really giving you an understanding.

I think we are much more complicated than most people notice or want to notice. Could have been physiological anomalies that led you to be not really present in that time. Could have been that you had a traumatic dream, which you did not remember, and this threw you into all sorts of defense mechanisms and a kind of reduction of consciousness, a bit like freezing when a predator is leaning over you and you cannot run or fight: the third reaction 'freezing' but one that was not complete, so you were able to move, but you were not really 'there'. I have experienced that and relate it to childhood trauma getting retriggered.

I was once walking about a little town, encountered an acquaintance and felt really quite unreal. I felt distant in myself. A bit like how alcohol can make things feel distant but I was sober.

somewhere between Derealization....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derealization

and Depersonalization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization

I think most people have so many defenses that these states are harder for them to experience. They are not introspective as a rule, and so the boundary between the unconscious and the conscious is much more closed to them. So no storms come sweeping out the unconscious to affect the way they experience things. They are no doubt affected by storms from the unconscious - and are in a bad mood for 'no reason', but the phenomenology of their experiencing is pretty much the same. But if the boundary between the consciousn and unconscious is more open and in fact one is conscious of one's unconscious - from therapy, spirituality, meditation, shamanism, traumatic experiences, curiosity, creative work, whatever - many more states of consciousness are possible, both pleasant and unpleasant.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:04 pm
by Bob
Karpel Tunnel wrote:I am not quite sure what you mean by consciousness here. And I am not quite sure how Dasein is involved, either with animals or with your story.

It’s probably just the speculation of someone who during the day time mostly speaks German. “Being there” (dasein) can mean physically or mentally “there”.
It could have been a minor fugue state:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugue_state

I don’t think so, but thanks for your input.
It could have been Transient Global Amnesia....
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20378531

This sounds right though.
I think we are much more complicated than most people notice or want to notice. Could have been physiological anomalies that led you to be not really present in that time. Could have been that you had a traumatic dream, which you did not remember, and this threw you into all sorts of defense mechanisms and a kind of reduction of consciousness, a bit like freezing when a predator is leaning over you and you cannot run or fight: the third reaction 'freezing' but one that was not complete, so you were able to move, but you were not really 'there'. I have experienced that and relate it to childhood trauma getting retriggered.

Now, twenty or so years later, I can’t recall anything that may have triggered the experience, but it could be that I forgot that as well. I never did recover my memory of the time between waking and coming to my senses.
I was once walking about a little town, encountered an acquaintance and felt really quite unreal. I felt distant in myself. A bit like how alcohol can make things feel distant but I was sober.
somewhere between Derealization....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derealization

I haven’t experienced that before.

Or this ...
I think most people have so many defenses that these states are harder for them to experience. They are not introspective as a rule, and so the boundary between the unconscious and the conscious is much more closed to them. So no storms come sweeping out the unconscious to affect the way they experience things. They are no doubt affected by storms from the unconscious - and are in a bad mood for 'no reason', but the phenomenology of their experiencing is pretty much the same. But if the boundary between the consciousn and unconscious is more open and in fact one is conscious of one's unconscious - from therapy, spirituality, meditation, shamanism, traumatic experiences, curiosity, creative work, whatever - many more states of consciousness are possible, both pleasant and unpleasant.

I very often feel that I am more introspective than others, but it may be that people don’t open up on that in normal conversations. Sometimes I have had the feeling that if people talking to me were more introspective, that they would have less problems. Other times have not been able to fathom out how they came to their assumptions.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:17 pm
by Karpel Tunnel
Bob wrote:It’s probably just the speculation of someone who during the day time mostly speaks German. “Being there” (dasein)
Hm, I never considered it before, but perhaps Kozinski who wrote the book was hinting at Heidigger with Being There.

I very often feel that I am more introspective than others, but it may be that people don’t open up on that in normal conversations. Sometimes I have had the feeling that if people talking to me were more introspective, that they would have less problems. Other times have not been able to fathom out how they came to their assumptions.
Introspection leads pretty fast to cognitive dissonance. It also shows us our mixed feelings about things we don't want to have mixed feelings about. It also let's us in on reasons for our beliefs which are not are official reasons for our beliefs. It is not encouraged from without. And it is scary within.

But then, I can't imagine what life would be like without it. I mean, without prioritizing it.

If I hadn't, I would be living some other guy's life.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:27 pm
by Ierrellus
I sometimes have the conscious experience of being the only me in the universe. If this is an experience of dasein, it is, for me, depressing. The only way out of the depression of supposed isolation is when I can feel the empathy of realizing that everyone else goes to this existential place or could and that I am a part of the universe.
As for running on autopilot, I think it is a common experience. Whether or not the state signifies dasein
is beyond me to explain.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:44 pm
by Fixed Cross
Heideggers "Being and Time" shouldn't be seen as his magnum opus, as he left it unfinished, as he realized he was running into the same walls of solid grammar.

He then moved on to specialize in Nietzsche and the Prescoratics and delivered a beautiful corpus of lectures. But then the war came.

After the war, he became focused on the question of technology.
In this, he steps back into Dasein.

His most archetypical piece of writing of that period is here, "Building, Dwelling, Thinking" - and through this text you are guaranteed to gain an understanding of what Heidegger means with Dasein - his understanding had much matured since the 1920s, and he had become humble.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:46 pm
by Bob
Fixed Cross wrote:His most archetypical piece of writing of that period is here, "Building, Dwelling, Thinking" - and through this text you are guaranteed to gain an understanding of what Heidegger means with Dasein - his understanding had much matured since the 1920s, and he had become humble.


So according to Heidegger, Dasein has to do with dwelling (verweilen), which includes the building of the dwelling-place, and suggests peace and cultivation in that place. But the whole argument that is put forth in those ten pages is a matter of semantics, since, as Heidegger noted, the original meaning of the words has been lost.

It would be interesting though, to ask ourselves whether we dwell because we are conscious beings, or is it natural for animals to dwell as well. It appears that many of them do, albeit they do not cultivate themselves or the ground around them. I have been in houses where animals would feel at home (and very often they can be found there) whereas a cultivated human being would find it unpleasant and contrary to cultivation. Does this mean that in spite of our consciousness, in many cases we choose not to cultivate? Does that suggest that Dasein is not one thing, but has variances?

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:39 pm
by Fixed Cross
Bob wrote:So according to Heidegger, Dasein has to do with dwelling (verweilen),

Actually, dwelling is a translation of Wohnen.
Curious isn't it, that English doesn't have a real word for this. It would have to be "living" ("Ich wohne hier" is "I live here", but "Das ist meine Wohnung" could be "that is my dwelling".)

which includes the building of the dwelling-place, and suggests peace and cultivation in that place. But the whole argument that is put forth in those ten pages is a matter of semantics, since, as Heidegger noted, the original meaning of the words has been lost.

It is certainly not semantics, it is a rather thorough philological exercise offering an opportunity for a modern continuation of Presocratic philosophy.

It would be interesting though, to ask ourselves whether we dwell because we are conscious beings, or is it natural for animals to dwell as well. It appears that many of them do, albeit they do not cultivate themselves or the ground around them.

Birds build nests, otters build dams, ants build hills, and many animals groom themselves and each other.
Humans are quite quick to overlook the work of animals, but without the cultivating work of bees alone we'd go extinct.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:45 am
by Pedro I Rengel
"Das ist meine Wohnung"

Mi vivienda.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:19 am
by Fixed Cross
When a burglar comes you'd say
Mein Haus! Raus und geh, schleich dich!

One could also translate bauen wohnen denken (Jesus what a battle with autocorrect) as building living thinking btw -
rather acquire a little extra meaning than a lot less.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:27 am
by Pedro I Rengel
Living in?

maybe that's too convoluted then.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:18 am
by Fixed Cross
Point to note though is that Deggerdegger is not translatable.
Not even into language, really.
Only into grass, cows, huts, ploughs, clouds, rain, farmers markets and Japan.

But we can give a negative definition of Dasein as building, dwelling and thinking, and in German, no less.
Nicht-Dasein

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:41 am
by Bob
Fixed Cross wrote:Actually, dwelling is a translation of Wohnen.
Curious isn't it, that English doesn't have a real word for this. It would have to be "living" ("Ich wohne hier" is "I live here", but "Das ist meine Wohnung" could be "that is my dwelling".)

dwell (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dwell?s=t)
[ dwel ]
verb (used without object),  dwelt or dwelled, dwell·ing.
to live or stay as a permanent resident; reside.
to live or continue in a given condition or state: to dwell in happiness.
to linger over, emphasize, or ponder in thought, speech, or writing (often followed by on or upon): to dwell on a particular point in an argument.
(of a moving tool or machine part) to be motionless for a certain interval during operation.
There is a case for my translation of dwelling as “verweilen”, even though in the colloquial it will always be regarded as “wohnen”. Reside may also translate as “wohnen”, but if I write in German that I “verweile” somewhere, I suggest that it is a lingering, tarrying, or is temporary, “sich an einem bestimmten Ort für eine Weile aufhalten, für eine kürzere Zeit bleiben“ as against saying “ich wohne”, which is definitely “to live” somewhere.
It is certainly not semantics, it is a rather thorough philological exercise offering an opportunity for a modern continuation of Presocratic philosophy.

I didn’t mean to reduce the text in any way, but don’t you get the feeling that philology can get caught up in semantics? I have a friend who is a philologist and he has opened biblical texts in a fascinating way, showing the depth of Hebrew and Greek in comparison to Latin. A text tends to mean a lot more when he adds his perspective. But he too suggested that we not get caught up in ancient texts too much, because otherwise we get caught up in an ivory tower and lose contact with life. He said that his studies were much like the internet (before there was an internet) in which he could spend hours and forget to eat or drink.

Birds build nests, otters build dams, ants build hills, and many animals groom themselves and each other.
Humans are quite quick to overlook the work of animals, but without the cultivating work of bees alone we'd go extinct.
[/quote]
This is what I mean. There is cultivation that comes from how creatures are “wired” to do something and cultivation that brings societies progressively forward. Agriculture, for example, helped overcome the daily struggle to find something to eat, although primitive culture was around when performing the rituals connected to hunting. Today, I get the feeling that we are forgetting the culture and instead, submitting ourselves unconsciously to sub-cultures, thereby foregoing the progress that culture has brought us as a society, and we fail to learn the lessons that got us there. If we had to pick up the pieces after some kind of conflict, we would probably start over again.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:43 am
by Bob
Bob wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Actually, dwelling is a translation of Wohnen.
Curious isn't it, that English doesn't have a real word for this. It would have to be "living" ("Ich wohne hier" is "I live here", but "Das ist meine Wohnung" could be "that is my dwelling".)

dwell (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dwell?s=t)
[ dwel ]
verb (used without object),  dwelt or dwelled, dwell·ing.
to live or stay as a permanent resident; reside.
to live or continue in a given condition or state: to dwell in happiness.
to linger over, emphasize, or ponder in thought, speech, or writing (often followed by on or upon): to dwell on a particular point in an argument.
(of a moving tool or machine part) to be motionless for a certain interval during operation.
There is a case for my translation of dwelling as “verweilen”, even though in the colloquial it will always be regarded as “wohnen”. Reside may also translate as “wohnen”, but if I write in German that I “verweile” somewhere, I suggest that it is a lingering, tarrying, or is temporary, “sich an einem bestimmten Ort für eine Weile aufhalten, für eine kürzere Zeit bleiben“ as against saying “ich wohne”, which is definitely “to live” somewhere.
It is certainly not semantics, it is a rather thorough philological exercise offering an opportunity for a modern continuation of Presocratic philosophy.

I didn’t mean to reduce the text in any way, but don’t you get the feeling that philology can get caught up in semantics? I have a friend who is a philologist and he has opened biblical texts in a fascinating way, showing the depth of Hebrew and Greek in comparison to Latin. A text tends to mean a lot more when he adds his perspective. But he too suggested that we not get caught up in ancient texts too much, because otherwise we get caught up in an ivory tower and lose contact with life. He said that his studies were much like the internet (before there was an internet) in which he could spend hours and forget to eat or drink.

Birds build nests, otters build dams, ants build hills, and many animals groom themselves and each other.
Humans are quite quick to overlook the work of animals, but without the cultivating work of bees alone we'd go extinct.

This is what I mean. There is cultivation that comes from how creatures are “wired” to do something and cultivation that brings societies progressively forward. Agriculture, for example, helped overcome the daily struggle to find something to eat, although primitive culture was around when performing the rituals connected to hunting. Today, I get the feeling that we are forgetting the culture and instead, submitting ourselves unconsciously to sub-cultures, thereby foregoing the progress that culture has brought us as a society, and we fail to learn the lessons that got us there. If we had to pick up the pieces after some kind of conflict, we would probably start over again.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:43 am
by Bob
Bob wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Actually, dwelling is a translation of Wohnen.
Curious isn't it, that English doesn't have a real word for this. It would have to be "living" ("Ich wohne hier" is "I live here", but "Das ist meine Wohnung" could be "that is my dwelling".)

dwell (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dwell?s=t)
[ dwel ]
verb (used without object),  dwelt or dwelled, dwell·ing.
to live or stay as a permanent resident; reside.
to live or continue in a given condition or state: to dwell in happiness.
to linger over, emphasize, or ponder in thought, speech, or writing (often followed by on or upon): to dwell on a particular point in an argument.
(of a moving tool or machine part) to be motionless for a certain interval during operation.
There is a case for my translation of dwelling as “verweilen”, even though in the colloquial it will always be regarded as “wohnen”. Reside may also translate as “wohnen”, but if I write in German that I “verweile” somewhere, I suggest that it is a lingering, tarrying, or is temporary, “sich an einem bestimmten Ort für eine Weile aufhalten, für eine kürzere Zeit bleiben“ as against saying “ich wohne”, which is definitely “to live” somewhere.
It is certainly not semantics, it is a rather thorough philological exercise offering an opportunity for a modern continuation of Presocratic philosophy.

I didn’t mean to reduce the text in any way, but don’t you get the feeling that philology can get caught up in semantics? I have a friend who is a philologist and he has opened biblical texts in a fascinating way, showing the depth of Hebrew and Greek in comparison to Latin. A text tends to mean a lot more when he adds his perspective. But he too suggested that we not get caught up in ancient texts too much, because otherwise we get caught up in an ivory tower and lose contact with life. He said that his studies were much like the internet (before there was an internet) in which he could spend hours and forget to eat or drink.

Birds build nests, otters build dams, ants build hills, and many animals groom themselves and each other.
Humans are quite quick to overlook the work of animals, but without the cultivating work of bees alone we'd go extinct.

This is what I mean. There is cultivation that comes from how creatures are “wired” to do something and cultivation that brings societies progressively forward. Agriculture, for example, helped overcome the daily struggle to find something to eat, although primitive culture was around when performing the rituals connected to hunting. Today, I get the feeling that we are forgetting the culture and instead, submitting ourselves unconsciously to sub-cultures, thereby foregoing the progress that culture has brought us as a society, and we fail to learn the lessons that got us there. If we had to pick up the pieces after some kind of conflict, we would probably start over again.
[/quote]

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:44 am
by Bob
Bob wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Actually, dwelling is a translation of Wohnen.
Curious isn't it, that English doesn't have a real word for this. It would have to be "living" ("Ich wohne hier" is "I live here", but "Das ist meine Wohnung" could be "that is my dwelling".)

dwell (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dwell?s=t)
[ dwel ]
verb (used without object),  dwelt or dwelled, dwell·ing.
to live or stay as a permanent resident; reside.
to live or continue in a given condition or state: to dwell in happiness.
to linger over, emphasize, or ponder in thought, speech, or writing (often followed by on or upon): to dwell on a particular point in an argument.
(of a moving tool or machine part) to be motionless for a certain interval during operation.
There is a case for my translation of dwelling as “verweilen”, even though in the colloquial it will always be regarded as “wohnen”. Reside may also translate as “wohnen”, but if I write in German that I “verweile” somewhere, I suggest that it is a lingering, tarrying, or is temporary, “sich an einem bestimmten Ort für eine Weile aufhalten, für eine kürzere Zeit bleiben“ as against saying “ich wohne”, which is definitely “to live” somewhere.
It is certainly not semantics, it is a rather thorough philological exercise offering an opportunity for a modern continuation of Presocratic philosophy.

I didn’t mean to reduce the text in any way, but don’t you get the feeling that philology can get caught up in semantics? I have a friend who is a philologist and he has opened biblical texts in a fascinating way, showing the depth of Hebrew and Greek in comparison to Latin. A text tends to mean a lot more when he adds his perspective. But he too suggested that we not get caught up in ancient texts too much, because otherwise we get caught up in an ivory tower and lose contact with life. He said that his studies were much like the internet (before there was an internet) in which he could spend hours and forget to eat or drink.

Birds build nests, otters build dams, ants build hills, and many animals groom themselves and each other.
Humans are quite quick to overlook the work of animals, but without the cultivating work of bees alone we'd go extinct.

This is what I mean. There is cultivation that comes from how creatures are “wired” to do something and cultivation that brings societies progressively forward. Agriculture, for example, helped overcome the daily struggle to find something to eat, although primitive culture was around when performing the rituals connected to hunting. Today, I get the feeling that we are forgetting the culture and instead, submitting ourselves unconsciously to sub-cultures, thereby foregoing the progress that culture has brought us as a society, and we fail to learn the lessons that got us there. If we had to pick up the pieces after some kind of conflict, we would probably start over again.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:45 am
by Bob
Fixed Cross wrote:Actually, dwelling is a translation of Wohnen.
Curious isn't it, that English doesn't have a real word for this. It would have to be "living" ("Ich wohne hier" is "I live here", but "Das ist meine Wohnung" could be "that is my dwelling".)

dwell (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dwell?s=t)
[ dwel ]
verb (used without object),  dwelt or dwelled, dwell·ing.
to live or stay as a permanent resident; reside.
to live or continue in a given condition or state: to dwell in happiness.
to linger over, emphasize, or ponder in thought, speech, or writing (often followed by on or upon): to dwell on a particular point in an argument.
(of a moving tool or machine part) to be motionless for a certain interval during operation.

There is a case for my translation of dwelling as “verweilen”, even though in the colloquial it will always be regarded as “wohnen”. Reside may also translate as “wohnen”, but if I write in German that I “verweile” somewhere, I suggest that it is a lingering, tarrying, or is temporary, “sich an einem bestimmten Ort für eine Weile aufhalten, für eine kürzere Zeit bleiben“ as against saying “ich wohne”, which is definitely “to live” somewhere.
It is certainly not semantics, it is a rather thorough philological exercise offering an opportunity for a modern continuation of Presocratic philosophy.

I didn’t mean to reduce the text in any way, but don’t you get the feeling that philology can get caught up in semantics? I have a friend who is a philologist and he has opened biblical texts in a fascinating way, showing the depth of Hebrew and Greek in comparison to Latin. A text tends to mean a lot more when he adds his perspective. But he too suggested that we not get caught up in ancient texts too much, because otherwise we get caught up in an ivory tower and lose contact with life. He said that his studies were much like the internet (before there was an internet) in which he could spend hours and forget to eat or drink.

Birds build nests, otters build dams, ants build hills, and many animals groom themselves and each other.
Humans are quite quick to overlook the work of animals, but without the cultivating work of bees alone we'd go extinct.
[/quote]
This is what I mean. There is cultivation that comes from how creatures are “wired” to do something and cultivation that brings societies progressively forward. Agriculture, for example, helped overcome the daily struggle to find something to eat, although primitive culture was around when performing the rituals connected to hunting. Today, I get the feeling that we are forgetting the culture and instead, submitting ourselves unconsciously to sub-cultures, thereby foregoing the progress that culture has brought us as a society, and we fail to learn the lessons that got us there. If we had to pick up the pieces after some kind of conflict, we would probably start over again.[/quote]

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:46 am
by Bob
Bob wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Actually, dwelling is a translation of Wohnen.
Curious isn't it, that English doesn't have a real word for this. It would have to be "living" ("Ich wohne hier" is "I live here", but "Das ist meine Wohnung" could be "that is my dwelling".)

dwell (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dwell?s=t)
[ dwel ]
verb (used without object),  dwelt or dwelled, dwell·ing.
to live or stay as a permanent resident; reside.
to live or continue in a given condition or state: to dwell in happiness.
to linger over, emphasize, or ponder in thought, speech, or writing (often followed by on or upon): to dwell on a particular point in an argument.
(of a moving tool or machine part) to be motionless for a certain interval during operation.

There is a case for my translation of dwelling as “verweilen”, even though in the colloquial it will always be regarded as “wohnen”. Reside may also translate as “wohnen”, but if I write in German that I “verweile” somewhere, I suggest that it is a lingering, tarrying, or is temporary, “sich an einem bestimmten Ort für eine Weile aufhalten, für eine kürzere Zeit bleiben“ as against saying “ich wohne”, which is definitely “to live” somewhere.
It is certainly not semantics, it is a rather thorough philological exercise offering an opportunity for a modern continuation of Presocratic philosophy.

I didn’t mean to reduce the text in any way, but don’t you get the feeling that philology can get caught up in semantics? I have a friend who is a philologist and he has opened biblical texts in a fascinating way, showing the depth of Hebrew and Greek in comparison to Latin. A text tends to mean a lot more when he adds his perspective. But he too suggested that we not get caught up in ancient texts too much, because otherwise we get caught up in an ivory tower and lose contact with life. He said that his studies were much like the internet (before there was an internet) in which he could spend hours and forget to eat or drink.

Birds build nests, otters build dams, ants build hills, and many animals groom themselves and each other.
Humans are quite quick to overlook the work of animals, but without the cultivating work of bees alone we'd go extinct.

This is what I mean. There is cultivation that comes from how creatures are “wired” to do something and cultivation that brings societies progressively forward. Agriculture, for example, helped overcome the daily struggle to find something to eat, although primitive culture was around when performing the rituals connected to hunting. Today, I get the feeling that we are forgetting the culture and instead, submitting ourselves unconsciously to sub-cultures, thereby foregoing the progress that culture has brought us as a society, and we fail to learn the lessons that got us there. If we had to pick up the pieces after some kind of conflict, we would probably start over again.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:46 am
by Bob
Fixed Cross wrote:Actually, dwelling is a translation of Wohnen.
Curious isn't it, that English doesn't have a real word for this. It would have to be "living" ("Ich wohne hier" is "I live here", but "Das ist meine Wohnung" could be "that is my dwelling".)

dwell (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dwell?s=t)
[ dwel ]
verb (used without object),  dwelt or dwelled, dwell·ing.
to live or stay as a permanent resident; reside.
to live or continue in a given condition or state: to dwell in happiness.
to linger over, emphasize, or ponder in thought, speech, or writing (often followed by on or upon): to dwell on a particular point in an argument.
(of a moving tool or machine part) to be motionless for a certain interval during operation.

There is a case for my translation of dwelling as “verweilen”, even though in the colloquial it will always be regarded as “wohnen”. Reside may also translate as “wohnen”, but if I write in German that I “verweile” somewhere, I suggest that it is a lingering, tarrying, or is temporary, “sich an einem bestimmten Ort für eine Weile aufhalten, für eine kürzere Zeit bleiben“ as against saying “ich wohne”, which is definitely “to live” somewhere.
It is certainly not semantics, it is a rather thorough philological exercise offering an opportunity for a modern continuation of Presocratic philosophy.

I didn’t mean to reduce the text in any way, but don’t you get the feeling that philology can get caught up in semantics? I have a friend who is a philologist and he has opened biblical texts in a fascinating way, showing the depth of Hebrew and Greek in comparison to Latin. A text tends to mean a lot more when he adds his perspective. But he too suggested that we not get caught up in ancient texts too much, because otherwise we get caught up in an ivory tower and lose contact with life. He said that his studies were much like the internet (before there was an internet) in which he could spend hours and forget to eat or drink.

Birds build nests, otters build dams, ants build hills, and many animals groom themselves and each other.
Humans are quite quick to overlook the work of animals, but without the cultivating work of bees alone we'd go extinct.

This is what I mean. There is cultivation that comes from how creatures are “wired” to do something and cultivation that brings societies progressively forward. Agriculture, for example, helped overcome the daily struggle to find something to eat, although primitive culture was around when performing the rituals connected to hunting. Today, I get the feeling that we are forgetting the culture and instead, submitting ourselves unconsciously to sub-cultures, thereby foregoing the progress that culture has brought us as a society, and we fail to learn the lessons that got us there. If we had to pick up the pieces after some kind of conflict, we would probably start over again.

Re: Dasein

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:46 pm
by Fixed Cross
Bob wrote:dwell (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dwell?s=t)
[ dwel ]
verb (used without object),  dwelt or dwelled, dwell·ing.
to live or stay as a permanent resident; reside.
to live or continue in a given condition or state: to dwell in happiness.
to linger over, emphasize, or ponder in thought, speech, or writing (often followed by on or upon): to dwell on a particular point in an argument.
(of a moving tool or machine part) to be motionless for a certain interval during operation.

There is a case for my translation of dwelling as “verweilen”, even though in the colloquial it will always be regarded as “wohnen”. Reside may also translate as “wohnen”, but if I write in German that I “verweile” somewhere, I suggest that it is a lingering, tarrying, or is temporary, “sich an einem bestimmten Ort für eine Weile aufhalten, für eine kürzere Zeit bleiben“ as against saying “ich wohne”, which is definitely “to live” somewhere.

Yes, indeed - I am Dutch and speak a fair bit of German having lived in Vienna, and the languages being quite close.
Indeed, the argument against "verweilen" here, which does intuitively very much compute with "dwelling" is that it isn't permanent, that one isn't cultivating a home.

It is certainly not semantics, it is a rather thorough philological exercise offering an opportunity for a modern continuation of Presocratic philosophy.

I didn’t mean to reduce the text in any way, but don’t you get the feeling that philology can get caught up in semantics? I have a friend who is a philologist and he has opened biblical texts in a fascinating way, showing the depth of Hebrew and Greek in comparison to Latin. A text tends to mean a lot more when he adds his perspective. But he too suggested that we not get caught up in ancient texts too much, because otherwise we get caught up in an ivory tower and lose contact with life. He said that his studies were much like the internet (before there was an internet) in which he could spend hours and forget to eat or drink.

I would argue that getting lost in such powerful ancient works is life - very much so! I find the ancient languages I have some teaching in to be very refreshing and often bring a more acute sense of reality than the language in which we are used to ... verweilen.

It breaks automatisms, of our nation, and in general of modernity. But more than that, there simply is such immense life in much ancient literature.

Birds build nests, otters build dams, ants build hills, and many animals groom themselves and each other.
Humans are quite quick to overlook the work of animals, but without the cultivating work of bees alone we'd go extinct.

This is what I mean. There is cultivation that comes from how creatures are “wired” to do something and cultivation that brings societies progressively forward. Agriculture, for example, helped overcome the daily struggle to find something to eat, although primitive culture was around when performing the rituals connected to hunting. Today, I get the feeling that we are forgetting the culture and instead, submitting ourselves unconsciously to sub-cultures, thereby foregoing the progress that culture has brought us as a society, and we fail to learn the lessons that got us there. If we had to pick up the pieces after some kind of conflict, we would probably start over again.

I wholeheartedly agree.