What's in a name?

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

Re: What's in a name?

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:07 pm

Also an astrological chart at the time of your birth will be fixed but you as a person over your lifetime are in a state of perpetual change
You are not a machine that performs like clockwork to a set of pre ordained prescriptive rules because that is not how we function at all
We are in a state of flux from birth to date which is determined by our psychological make up and the environment that we interact with
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:00 pm

The claim that astrology works because what happens in our brains is not independent of what happens outside of them is a non sequitur as it stands
I would want to see something much more convincing than that before I could start to take that claim seriously because right now I see nothing at all

Obviously nothing in the Universe operates entirely independently of anything else but that does not mean
however that there is a direct causal link between any two random phenomena as that is definitely not true

The link between psychopathy and full moons is even more of a non sequitur and is not even remotely serious
I would want to see the so called evidence this nonsensical claim is based on to see why it is accepted as such

Evidence is the only thing that will convince me about any claim and so in the absence of any I become skeptical
Even if the claim in question is true unless it can be demonstrated to be so it really should not be accepted at all
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Mowk » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:30 pm

I agree. Currently a birth chart is a mistaken piece of documentation. Like Fixed stated, It's not so much a snapshot but a map.

But how specific could a horoscope be if it were a continuously running program that took your specific spatial position on the planet into account in every moment it was queried?

I stand 6 ft tall and the view of this planet around me as result of it's size and curvature allows me a six mile diameter horizon of the planet. Moving my location just six miles would allow me to see a slightly different star field. Some stars in the direction I moved would become visible over the horizon and some stars I was moving away from would become obscured. Just changing my elevation on the planet has a similar effect, making my horizon larger as I move higher in elevation. Simply cutting the planet in two at the equator to determine the star field in the northern or southern hemispheres is a dramatic over simplification itself.

One of my problems with astrology is I have never seen the question asked what was your elevation at the time of your birth? Elevation would change the size of your horizon, and as result the angular relationship to all the planets as well. I don't ever get to see half the stars in the sky as I can never see beyond the curvature of the planet. What if for example I was born on a satellite in geosynchronous orbit directly above a particular coordinate position on the planet, say on the moon if it were in a geosynchronous orbit. My distance from the planet would be great enough that my horizon view of the planet would be the size of disc out in space, I would be exposed to a far greater number of stars and the planets in their orbits would be obscured by the planet earth for far less time. If it is angular relationship to the planets that defines a birth chart and what influences it, a chart for someone born in geosynchronous orbit would have to be much different then that of a person born at a specific location and time on the planet. The sun and all the planets would become visible, and the effect based on angles and what is visible and what is obscured and their anticipate results would have to change as well.

If I were born at the top of cliff or at sea level at the base of the cliff my angles in relationship to all the planets would be different. Every astrological chart I've looked at has a two dimensional position on the planet and a time. I haven't found one that asks what your elevation is, and elevation changes the size your horizon. The higher up you go the larger the horizon becomes. Imagine in the future inhabiting the moon. A child born on the moon would have entirely different angles and vantage points to the planets then someone born on earth. Being born at sea level would give you a different chart then being born at 5,000 ft. I've seen no evidence that, to date, astrology has taken this into account. Astrology is based on simple angles and I've seen no evidence that it takes into account an azimuth.

If at ground level your horizon is just 1.3 miles or defines a circle 2.6 miles in diameter, then two people born just 6 miles apart at the same date and time should have dramatically individual charts as their personal horizons would expose a different star field and different planetary positions in the sky and a child born on a plane 30,000 feet over head would have a different chart as well.

And man is just an animal, if this effect takes place for man then every animal on the planet would be subject to the same reasoning. But to ask astrology to take these complexities into account is asking a lot from a pseudo science. The first question on the chart should be what's your species? Because the same rules should apply to every EM emitting life form on the planet. The horoscope of a house plant should change if I moved it to a different window. At the very best astrology is an extremely over simplified codification system, how ever complex the calculations of all the variable are.

And that doesn't even begin to explain how a celestial mass as far away as Pluto can effect any life form that comes into being, on a specific planet in a solar system. What is the effect of the planet earth if you were born on Mars? Find the mechanism of this effect, don't just postulate it as result of a correlation being a cause.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby promethean75 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:17 pm

one thing astrology does is exploit the opportunity to say 'our behaviors are caused by physical forces and events'. this is something established by neuroscience, but neuroscience deals with much smaller, localized observations that can be repeated in controlled environments. astrologers then come along and say 'how do we know astral bodies and their activities don't also have a direct affect on behaviors, dispositions, etc.?' and because we have to answer 'we don't know', they reverse the burden of proof and effectively conceal their argument from ignorance.

'well because you don't know, were gonna go ahead and assume they do.'

but then the problem of accurately mapping these assumed relationships between people and astral bodies arises. to address this problem, the mapping is made so complex that everything has an explanation... as a kind of fail-safe. if they claim that jupiter being here at time x should mean this and that, and instead something different happens, they'll say 'oh that's because we didn't account for this other factor; neptune being here at time y.'

another problem astrology exploits is the ambiguity of language. for example, there is no single way to define the behavior of 'being aggressive', or 'opportunistic', or 'romantic', or 'timid', or 'risky', etc. this way, if a taurus, who's supposed to be sensual, doesn't exhibit behavior that we'd expect is sensual, we can take advantage of the ambiguity of that definition and stretch it out to accommodate the taurus's behavior, whatever it may be.

astrology is a kind of 'make it up as you go' system of explanations, none of which can be verified experimentally like neuroscience. those who practice it are either genuinely ignorant of its sophistry, or using it to try an dazzle people to gain their admiration.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:46 pm

It is no small thing to know ones own deep psyche.

For me it has been a proven and simple formula: a person who is afraid of the world is afraid of astrology. This is not only normal but inevitable. Self-valuing logic, will to power - which in most men is a will to not be confronted with a lack of power.

Whats the funny part is that grown up men manage to convince themselves that they're able to judge the mechanics of something of which they categorically refuse to lift the hood to study it. It makes an insect look respectable.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby surreptitious75 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:08 pm

It is indeed no small thing to know ones own psyche but I do not think that there is merely one way to achieve this
Studying that of which you have little or no knowledge is a path to understanding it but that does not mean it that has to be accepted as well
Ideologies and philosophies pertaining to self and to ones place in the grand scheme of things have always existed but they cannot all be true
Being open minded extends to acknowledging alternative interpretations but not to uncritical acceptance of them
But if something is true for someone on a fundamental level what others think of it should not really be a problem
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Mowk » Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:03 am

surreptitious75,

What's the story behind your user name? You have entered the "what's in a name zone", by your own volition. Reciprocity is due.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:58 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:But if something is true for someone on a fundamental level what others think of it should not really be a problem

Thats certainly true.
And with my own logic, I kind of enjoy the fact that it is hard for people to grasp and I find myself privileged being part of a small minority understanding it.

With astrology however it has long bothered me how it is judged by people who normally think like scientists but on this subject do not think they should research it thoroughly before judging it.
The explanation for this is simply: the massive fraud and soothsaying that is absolute trash that occurs under its name. On the other hand, do we dismiss chemistry because of the lies of big Pharma? Thats actually something fundamental Christians do.

Anyway thanks for the discussion.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:08 pm

Mowk wrote:I agree. Currently a birth chart is a mistaken piece of documentation. Like Fixed stated, It's not so much a snapshot but a map.

But how specific could a horoscope be if it were a continuously running program that took your specific spatial position on the planet into account in every moment it was queried?

I stand 6 ft tall and the view of this planet around me as result of it's size and curvature allows me a six mile diameter horizon of the planet. Moving my location just six miles would allow me to see a slightly different star field. Some stars in the direction I moved would become visible over the horizon and some stars I was moving away from would become obscured. Just changing my elevation on the planet has a similar effect, making my horizon larger as I move higher in elevation. Simply cutting the planet in two at the equator to determine the star field in the northern or southern hemispheres is a dramatic over simplification itself.

One of my problems with astrology is I have never seen the question asked what was your elevation at the time of your birth? Elevation would change the size of your horizon, and as result the angular relationship to all the planets as well. I don't ever get to see half the stars in the sky as I can never see beyond the curvature of the planet. What if for example I was born on a satellite in geosynchronous orbit directly above a particular coordinate position on the planet, say on the moon if it were in a geosynchronous orbit. My distance from the planet would be great enough that my horizon view of the planet would be the size of disc out in space, I would be exposed to a far greater number of stars and the planets in their orbits would be obscured by the planet earth for far less time. If it is angular relationship to the planets that defines a birth chart and what influences it, a chart for someone born in geosynchronous orbit would have to be much different then that of a person born at a specific location and time on the planet. The sun and all the planets would become visible, and the effect based on angles and what is visible and what is obscured and their anticipate results would have to change as well.

If I were born at the top of cliff or at sea level at the base of the cliff my angles in relationship to all the planets would be different. Every astrological chart I've looked at has a two dimensional position on the planet and a time. I haven't found one that asks what your elevation is, and elevation changes the size your horizon. The higher up you go the larger the horizon becomes. Imagine in the future inhabiting the moon. A child born on the moon would have entirely different angles and vantage points to the planets then someone born on earth. Being born at sea level would give you a different chart then being born at 5,000 ft. I've seen no evidence that, to date, astrology has taken this into account. Astrology is based on simple angles and I've seen no evidence that it takes into account an azimuth.

If at ground level your horizon is just 1.3 miles or defines a circle 2.6 miles in diameter, then two people born just 6 miles apart at the same date and time should have dramatically individual charts as their personal horizons would expose a different star field and different planetary positions in the sky and a child born on a plane 30,000 feet over head would have a different chart as well.

And man is just an animal, if this effect takes place for man then every animal on the planet would be subject to the same reasoning. But to ask astrology to take these complexities into account is asking a lot from a pseudo science. The first question on the chart should be what's your species? Because the same rules should apply to every EM emitting life form on the planet. The horoscope of a house plant should change if I moved it to a different window. At the very best astrology is an extremely over simplified codification system, how ever complex the calculations of all the variable are.

And that doesn't even begin to explain how a celestial mass as far away as Pluto can effect any life form that comes into being, on a specific planet in a solar system. What is the effect of the planet earth if you were born on Mars? Find the mechanism of this effect, don't just postulate it as result of a correlation being a cause.

I might as well ask you to find the mechanism of gravity before you postulate the existence of gravity. But I don't enjoy repeating myself!

We are living in a much less understood universe than you seem to presume.

Here is a curious video fragment telling you a bit of the first moment of breath.
https://youtu.be/gcmJ7uDQmDw?t=1344

II don't expect this video to be taken seriously at all mind you - but his fragment is an answer to your earlier question.
Here is some literature for context.
https://www.sevenray.org/uploads/2/9/0/ ... estry2.pdf

I know it is all very weird. Don't think I voluntarily got drawn to it. I fucking loathed all this shit, these queasy making people and the "soul definitions" - ridiculous.
But at there heart I found something really terrifying.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Mowk » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:14 pm

I might as well ask you to find the mechanism of gravity before you postulate the existence of gravity.


Mass, a lot of mass.

I'll take a look at your links, thanks.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Mowk » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:08 pm

I might as well ask you to find the mechanism of gravity before you postulate the existence of gravity.


Mass, a lot of mass. Escape velocities, gravity slingshots, reverse thrust requirements, speed mass requirements to maintain an orbit. Newton's law. Mathematically defined relationships of masses.
But I don't think the two questions are equivalent. With gravity, Newton and Galileo could experiment to determine it's results. No one invented it's effect.
I'll take a look at your links, thanks.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:51 pm

Them's not mechanisms of gravity, only mechanisms that depend on it.

The only thing I have against you re astrology FC is that you perpetuate the idea that we somehow owe an explanation. My gf used to say that too: that's not enough to convince me to look into it. Well lol. It was you who asked you stupid bitch.

The origins of my name are deep and misterious and not for your ears.

Mowk is a cool name though.

And that is one of the most badass origin stories ever. Movies tend not to offer so good ones. I am enthralled.

Probably your Libra expectation date manifests as this largely succesful search for style from an unmistakeably virgan soul. The disdain of a squirel. Majestic.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:16 pm

59 was a good year.

Hard as shit though. It is this hardness that makes its natives so sweet.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:19 pm

We all believe in astrology though.

Otherwise, why would you disclose such personal information yet censor your birth date?
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:21 pm

And I'd be a dick if I didn't concede, that

Mass, a lot of mass

Is an extremely good explanation for the question of gravity. Very good.

That quote Fixed Cross left in The Philosophers thread about dropping something all the way to the bottom is also very illuminating.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:38 pm

Mowk wrote:
I might as well ask you to find the mechanism of gravity before you postulate the existence of gravity.


Mass, a lot of mass. Escape velocities, gravity slingshots, reverse thrust requirements, speed mass requirements to maintain an orbit. Newton's law. Mathematically defined relationships of masses.
But I don't think the two questions are equivalent. With gravity, Newton and Galileo could experiment to determine it's results. No one invented it's effect.
I'll take a look at your links, thanks.

What Im asking after is not what gravity is and how it corresponds, because all that is known about astrological law as well.
You asked after cause, I ask after a cause. What is the cause of the mass attracting another mass?
Science is only concerned with the consistency of the fact of correspondence.

Granted, I mentioned something about electromagnetic isolation which the brain does not provide, so I speculated about causes, but the validity of astrology, to the astrologers mind, is derived strictly from the absolute consistency in correspondences of concepts and realities, the consistent accuracy of correspondences, as it is with anything worthy of being called a science.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:52 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Them's not mechanisms of gravity, only mechanisms that depend on it.

Yeah in short.

The only thing I have against you re astrology FC is that you perpetuate the idea that we somehow owe an explanation. My gf used to say that too: that's not enough to convince me to look into it. Well lol. It was you who asked you stupid bitch.

Lol. When someone asks you to teach him to swim, most cases they'll be willing to jump in the water to begin with. With astrology, not so. It is really strenuous and you're right.
If someone wants to know she'll not need me to find out.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:59 pm

Using the Newtonean order as a standard though we can still say something to make understood how even small bodies contribute in significant ways; note that Pluto as other outer bodies was first hypothesized because there was a measurable inconsistency in the movements of the other planets. Reifying the inconsistency mathematically someone disclosed the location of a hypothetical object, the physical version of which was then indeed discovered in the predicted place. In the same way its presence in the chart is sleek and insidious, very subtle and very, very deep behind the other paths -note also that Pluto's orbit is slanted on one of the axes with respect to the paths of the others.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Mowk » Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:05 pm

Otherwise, why would you disclose such personal information yet censor your birth date?

Cause I wish no one to wish me a fuckin happy birthday. I get enough robotic well wishes now.
Last edited by Mowk on Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:07 pm

Mhm....
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:02 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
With astrology however it has long bothered me how it is judged by people who normally
think like scientists but on this subject do not think they should research it thoroughly


It requires a certain degree of will power to take the time to learn something you think is intellectually redundant and therefore superfluous
It is true regardless of subject matter and of how open minded anyone is because everyone has their blind spots for no one is immune to this

I do not think absolute open mindedness is possible for both moral and logical reasons but one can strive over time to become less closed minded
I have become more detached as I get older so see things more as an observer than a participant and I think it helps me to be more open minded

Astrology as a subject does not actually interest me that much although I do have a book about Chinese astrology
I read physics / philosophy / math / biology / history / politics but astrology for me is not in the same category as any of those
Although I am interested in religion even though I am an atheist and Greek mythology which I find more relevant than astrology

I have also read all of Everything You Need To Know But Have Never Been Told by David Icke which is very heavy with regard to symbolism and astrology [ particularly in relation to Saturn ] none of which I think is true [ such as the Moon being an ancient artificial satellite created by cosmic life forms ] but I still read it nonetheless because its an interesting insight into how his mind works - I try though as a general rule not to dismiss something entirely less I am absolutely certain that it is false
[ the Earth being flat for example which it clearly is not ]
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:03 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
With astrology however it has long bothered me how it is judged by people who normally
think like scientists but on this subject do not think they should research it thoroughly

It requires a certain degree of will power to take the time to learn something you think is intellectually redundant and therefore superfluous
It is true regardless of subject matter and of how open minded anyone is because everyone has their blind spots for no one is immune to this

I do not think absolute open mindedness is possible for both moral and logical reasons but one can strive over time to become less closed minded
I have become more detached as I get older so see things more as an observer than a participant and I think it helps me to be more open minded

Astrology as a subject does not actually interest me that much although I do have a book about Chinese astrology
I read physics / philosophy / math / biology / history / politics but astrology for me is not in the same category as any of those
Although I am interested in religion even though I am an atheist and Greek mythology which I find more relevant than astrology

I have also read all of Everything You Need To Know But Have Never Been Told by David Icke which is very heavy with regard to symbolism and astrology [ particularly in relation to Saturn ] none of which I think is true [ such as the Moon being an ancient artificial satellite created by cosmic life forms ] but I still read it nonetheless because its an interesting insight into how his mind works - I try though as a general rule not to dismiss something entirely less I am absolutely certain that it is false
[ the Earth being flat for example which it clearly is not ]
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Mowk » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:28 am

surreptitious75,

You have entered the "what's in a name zone" again, by your own volition. Past due.
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby surreptitious75 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:56 am

surreptitiously is my favourite word but that word as username had already been taken and so I decided to drop the last two letters
The numbers have no real significance but must be symmetrical because I have OCD and the mind will not accept them otherwise
I had been surreptitious57 else where for 8 years but I had to change it here 2 years ago when I could not remember my password

Many people have a username that is some clue to who they are but mine is completely inscrutable and I very much like this
Because you could not ascertain not a single thing about who I was if this was all the information you actually had about me
I see no reason why one should not be as imaginative as possible when choosing a username but each to their own I suppose
I like my username too because although entirely unintentional it has a rather nice rhythm to it when actually spoken aloud
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Re: What's in a name?

Postby Mowk » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:03 am

Thanks for entering the zone. Mowk doesn't exactly lend itself to the story behind my user name either. You didn't have to live with being greeted 'M' 'o' 'w' 'k' either.

I don't get the number 75 being symmetrical. Would you explain that? I mean you don't have to, your dues have been paid in full.
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