Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Prismatic567 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:33 am

Pandora wrote:If you believe that a mind can be mistaken, or is capable of misperceiving reality, then you must consider the possibility that a hallucinating mind is having a wrong understanding of reality.

It is not 'wrong' understanding of reality.

It is a different perspective of reality which can potentially be insightful or merely useless visuals/experiences.

We need still knowledge, wisdom, rationality, psychology-proper, critical thinking to sieve out what is potentially useful for the individual's well being.

I understand those with Impulse Control Disorders will likely end up as addicts if we do not take care of such problem [or any other mental problems] before allowing anyone to venture into psychedelics.

Btw, there are natural means to trigger DMT [which is naturally in all humans] where the experiences may not be very significant but enough to trigger some kind of Altered States of Consciousness.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Jakob » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:42 pm

Artimas wrote:So I am putting this topic in the mind section due to my pondering about the psyche.

My last two trips have shaken me, it did not truly terrify or scar me but they put things into perspective most definitely.

I did lsd a while ago, probably a month or two ago.. It shook my entire existence and blank slated me.. I saw horror in what made me feel or think "it's all worth it", living this simple life full of complexities here on Earth, that are at least, mostly, manageable. It slapped me hard, very hard. I was the embodiment of "it"... The spectator.. The god, subconscious or Whatever you want to call it in your language or perception.

I was disassociated with my identity.. I could see in my mind a group of humans, thinking I can do whatever I want and existence is what I make out of it so build something great, I could see these people in my mind, a huge group, building stone statues/structures or having wars and doing whatever it may be that they have done in ancients past but while seeing this it was sped up like being played on a recorder and hit fast forward, it was all for it, it has been watching the entire time.. Our existence and progress.. It was with a sense of urgency of course, as if it were telling me my and the species capabilities and that something must be done or when we band together we are very powerful.

I smoked Dmt yesterday and it showed me death and the despair in what could be, the dimensions of nothingness, chaos, the void.. as if to make me understand to the extent of what I currently can, to appreciate being on Earth here, it felt as if my brain hurt from comprehension or my trying too comprehend and stretch myself.. The feeling is painful, it showed me that when two substances mix there is no going back, so if I understood I cannot be here on earth anymore in a sense, perhaps, the reaction may not be one that is willfully sought. There were lines everywhere and patterns, I was in different dimensions in my mind, I open my eyes and it is a mixture of reality and these patterns.. I felt panicked on this journey, it is near if not incomprehensible.. I felt as if there were entities in each one of these dimensions even though I did not go into one dimension specifically, it was as if I was in an escalator or a waiting line that moves, showing me just a glimpse of all of these places.. Even the white room of nothingness, it showed me reality is what we make it, existence.. But it can be much more terrible than this, much... Much more incomprehensible.. I had already known these simple facts but the point is to understand and so it slapped me like the silly human I am, it has felt like I have died, pieces of me lost in these trips even if nothing really has been lost but instead something gained or so I hope..
Artimas wrote:
Meno_ wrote:Well, 10 strips = more or less 1000 micro grams of LSD. If DMT is so much stronger , did the thought of panic occur to You ? Were You alone or with company? Athmosphere can make a huge difference.

I was with my gf. A bit panicked, dmt is the strongest hallucinogenic known to man so far.. It is released when near death and also when dreaming supposedly. Yeah this last lsd trip I only took 2 tabs but they were really strong I guess. Dmt is probably about x10 stronger than lsd too. Ayahuasca.


I did Ayahuasca in Brazil with an old poster here. Her father gave me a very big dose without telling me. Until after I had drank it.
So the trip came. Im rather experienced in meditation and have accomplished much in the occult.
The spirit of it told me to go home, that I know everything I need to know and I need to teach it. Very weird, as I had expected to be more or less pulled apart in some agonic understanding of some kind of new layer. But on the other hand I know damn well that what I arrived at philosophically is the result in part of processing psychedelic experiences.

I really appreciated the cleaning it gave my bowels.
Had to scrub the toilet the day after.

LSD equally didn't shake me. It just showed me how my mind could be rewired to come up with different experiences.

I feel as if I am at the limit of my minds power in terms of figuring out myself and it's power and that is why this trip was similar to my lsd trip but just a lot more potent. I felt like lady galadriel in LOTR, seeing silver and the screaming.. It feels as if I do not have much left to pursuit that I can comprehend with this mind of homosapien and is this not the urgency one feels to continue evolving but not being able to due too societies mundane redundancy?.. Does anyone else feel at the end? Is understanding that life is entropy/agony, the beginning and the end?

No, not at all. Obviously not. Entropy is a function of order. Ordering is a function of valuing, or Love, as it is ultimately recognized.
(This is what the Ayahuasca agreed with)

But one needs to be ready for it. Being aware of the true power of valuing requires full cognizance of entropy, death and horror.
Most people seek to avoid that knowledge and get "bad trips"
I never had a bad trip, as I have no talent for evasion.

https://youtu.be/K3VOf3CBGvw
On my lsd trip, this is how powerful it felt but it felt like my mind is merely a rubber band and i was trying to stretch or snap it by understanding more beyond.. I saw silver everywhere and held my head groaning, I heard noise like how she yells in this scene. It felt as if I am god but also have my limits of individuality of course..

Yeah I had this in my first trip on synthetic psychedelics. I nearly had to crash my head into the wall to make it stop. The cosmos just kept unfolding in continuously more dimensions where as a human I could barely handle the fifth. When it had ended I was just relieved to be back in a human mind.
Ive come along way since. But most people who trip don't come a long way. They don't realize the real work is done in sobriety, afterwards, and they just... fade away.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:21 pm

Jakob wrote:
Artimas wrote:So I am putting this topic in the mind section due to my pondering about the psyche.

My last two trips have shaken me, it did not truly terrify or scar me but they put things into perspective most definitely.

I did lsd a while ago, probably a month or two ago.. It shook my entire existence and blank slated me.. I saw horror in what made me feel or think "it's all worth it", living this simple life full of complexities here on Earth, that are at least, mostly, manageable. It slapped me hard, very hard. I was the embodiment of "it"... The spectator.. The god, subconscious or Whatever you want to call it in your language or perception.

I was disassociated with my identity.. I could see in my mind a group of humans, thinking I can do whatever I want and existence is what I make out of it so build something great, I could see these people in my mind, a huge group, building stone statues/structures or having wars and doing whatever it may be that they have done in ancients past but while seeing this it was sped up like being played on a recorder and hit fast forward, it was all for it, it has been watching the entire time.. Our existence and progress.. It was with a sense of urgency of course, as if it were telling me my and the species capabilities and that something must be done or when we band together we are very powerful.

I smoked Dmt yesterday and it showed me death and the despair in what could be, the dimensions of nothingness, chaos, the void.. as if to make me understand to the extent of what I currently can, to appreciate being on Earth here, it felt as if my brain hurt from comprehension or my trying too comprehend and stretch myself.. The feeling is painful, it showed me that when two substances mix there is no going back, so if I understood I cannot be here on earth anymore in a sense, perhaps, the reaction may not be one that is willfully sought. There were lines everywhere and patterns, I was in different dimensions in my mind, I open my eyes and it is a mixture of reality and these patterns.. I felt panicked on this journey, it is near if not incomprehensible.. I felt as if there were entities in each one of these dimensions even though I did not go into one dimension specifically, it was as if I was in an escalator or a waiting line that moves, showing me just a glimpse of all of these places.. Even the white room of nothingness, it showed me reality is what we make it, existence.. But it can be much more terrible than this, much... Much more incomprehensible.. I had already known these simple facts but the point is to understand and so it slapped me like the silly human I am, it has felt like I have died, pieces of me lost in these trips even if nothing really has been lost but instead something gained or so I hope..
Artimas wrote:
Meno_ wrote:Well, 10 strips = more or less 1000 micro grams of LSD. If DMT is so much stronger , did the thought of panic occur to You ? Were You alone or with company? Athmosphere can make a huge difference.

I was with my gf. A bit panicked, dmt is the strongest hallucinogenic known to man so far.. It is released when near death and also when dreaming supposedly. Yeah this last lsd trip I only took 2 tabs but they were really strong I guess. Dmt is probably about x10 stronger than lsd too. Ayahuasca.


I did Ayahuasca in Brazil with an old poster here. Her father gave me a very big dose without telling me. Until after I had drank it.
So the trip came. Im rather experienced in meditation and have accomplished much in the occult.
The spirit of it told me to go home, that I know everything I need to know and I need to teach it. Very weird, as I had expected to be more or less pulled apart in some agonic understanding of some kind of new layer. But on the other hand I know damn well that what I arrived at philosophically is the result in part of processing psychedelic experiences.

I really appreciated the cleaning it gave my bowels.
Had to scrub the toilet the day after.

LSD equally didn't shake me. It just showed me how my mind could be rewired to come up with different experiences.

I feel as if I am at the limit of my minds power in terms of figuring out myself and it's power and that is why this trip was similar to my lsd trip but just a lot more potent. I felt like lady galadriel in LOTR, seeing silver and the screaming.. It feels as if I do not have much left to pursuit that I can comprehend with this mind of homosapien and is this not the urgency one feels to continue evolving but not being able to due too societies mundane redundancy?.. Does anyone else feel at the end? Is understanding that life is entropy/agony, the beginning and the end?

No, not at all. Obviously not. Entropy is a function of order. Ordering is a function of valuing, or Love, as it is ultimately recognized.
(This is what the Ayahuasca agreed with)

But one needs to be ready for it. Being aware of the true power of valuing requires full cognizance of entropy, death and horror.
Most people seek to avoid that knowledge and get "bad trips"
I never had a bad trip, as I have no talent for evasion.

https://youtu.be/K3VOf3CBGvw
On my lsd trip, this is how powerful it felt but it felt like my mind is merely a rubber band and i was trying to stretch or snap it by understanding more beyond.. I saw silver everywhere and held my head groaning, I heard noise like how she yells in this scene. It felt as if I am god but also have my limits of individuality of course..

Yeah I had this in my first trip on synthetic psychedelics. I nearly had to crash my head into the wall to make it stop. The cosmos just kept unfolding in continuously more dimensions where as a human I could barely handle the fifth. When it had ended I was just relieved to be back in a human mind.
Ive come along way since. But most people who trip don't come a long way. They don't realize the real work is done in sobriety, afterwards, and they just... fade away.



.I have as well, before I have ever touched a psychedelic I have been interested in its culture, the occult, symbolism, etc, all of it and seeking to learn more about everything, I was a fiend to learning and seeking understanding. Basically that is what I felt it was stating, to return back to earth and that it cannot show me much more than I already understand, to be patient and appreciate the now for what it is.

LSD hit me hard my last time I did it and the dmt just as equally. I don't do these psychedelics for fun like others because the fun to me is the learning, which is agony. I let it criticize me and put my ego to the dirt to and to understand this dirt is the very foundation of the egos/consciousness spawning out of it, ego spawning out of nature/subconscious.

I have not tried ayahuasca yet, I am not sure I will ever, but I am not opposed to the experience, perhaps later on.

I agree about your point on value, love, expression, etc. It's similar to why art is so important along with love/kindness and understanding.

Yes, too many people abuse these substances for fun and they miss the messaging, they don't try to understand themself and reality, they disregard their use and disrespect them as the tools they are. I appreciate the duality/trinity of chaos/order/existence

This is what I am trying to explain and how they are used as a tool, understanding and the work may be done in sobriety by being able to piece together what you now believe to know. To correlate information and fill in gaps by a new/different perspective or angle to perceive. I have come a long way and hope to continue going further, of course that is the only option once one understands certain things, a point of no return.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Jakob » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:37 pm

Yes. Once one acquires a certain degree of understanding, this translates in a momentum.

In the Tree of Life, it is said that once when gets to that point, one better ready to cross the Abyss that lies between the situational mind and the absolute.

What it comes down to in simple terms is that, to survive all this power, one must be able and willing and actually ready to act on behalf of the earth. Sacred knowledge unemployed is clearly the "sin" in this play, as in missing the mark, the point.

One isn't given power to just sit on it. It will consume the mind. The mind needs to be humble before this power and constantly inquire as to how to put it to best use.
And to whom one should address the inquiry is, indeed, the dirt, from whence we came. And this dirt may eventually introduce us to our proper gods.

Power of vision must be employed or it will have its way with the initiate.
A basic matter of grounding.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Meno_ » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:30 am

Yes and the funny part of it, one doesn't invite the power or invent it, it is a put upon pie, something the Other iimposes on one.

Strange as it seems, the learning consists of dealing with it, and through dealing, with evolving arte forms, consisting of such a magnitude , that only an involved person can comprehend or deal with

This art, would become an irrevocable deal ; separating those who are not cosigners.

Others would opt out quick not merely because they would need to become responsible for their own actions, but when they came to realize that magnitude of responsibility for others' welfare , that may overwhelm them, that may not allow any redactions.

A very large percentage of human beings would rather have fun with them.


Ancient gods did draw irrevocable circles around the loving yet rightfully condemned.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:38 pm

Jakob wrote:Yes. Once one acquires a certain degree of understanding, this translates in a momentum.

In the Tree of Life, it is said that once when gets to that point, one better ready to cross the Abyss that lies between the situational mind and the absolute.

What it comes down to in simple terms is that, to survive all this power, one must be able and willing and actually ready to act on behalf of the earth. Sacred knowledge unemployed is clearly the "sin" in this play, as in missing the mark, the point.

One isn't given power to just sit on it. It will consume the mind. The mind needs to be humble before this power and constantly inquire as to how to put it to best use.
And to whom one should address the inquiry is, indeed, the dirt, from whence we came. And this dirt may eventually introduce us to our proper gods.

Power of vision must be employed or it will have its way with the initiate.
A basic matter of grounding.


When you said a basic matter of grounding I thought of the inverted pentagram with baphomet, so often associated with evil, let us not forget, whence man cometh. From the elements spirit did manifest into. We travel from the bottom of the inverted pentagram point to the top of the pentagram point, we are born as spirits manifested into the elements with little to no knowledge, mastery is balance and the spirit being at the top(a state of insight). The goat is depicted in the inverted pentagram as a reminder, follow the goat, the flame, the knowledge so one may arrive at the top point. It is a journey. Symbols are never evil until one interprets and /uses/ them as such. These are tools to be regarded though I am positive you already understand this, I just wanted to add on a perspective of that last bit for some referencing.

I agree with you.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:41 pm

Meno_ wrote:Yes and the funny part of it, one doesn't invite the power or invent it, it is a put upon pie, something the Other iimposes on one.

Strange as it seems, the learning consists of dealing with it, and through dealing, with evolving arte forms, consisting of such a magnitude , that only an involved person can comprehend or deal with

This art, would become an irrevocable deal ; separating those who are not cosigners.

Others would opt out quick not merely because they would need to become responsible for their own actions, but when they came to realize that magnitude of responsibility for others' welfare , that may overwhelm them, that may not allow any redactions.

A very large percentage of human beings would rather have fun with them.


Ancient gods did draw irrevocable circles around the loving yet rightfully condemned.


Yes they did! I wouldn’t have it any other way though. A price must be paid for power and an understanding of that power. I appreciate so very much our perfect yet imperfect little world/universe or duality/trinity.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:46 pm

Pandora is right when it comes to general public doing psychedelics or drugs without much education on psychology and how the mind functions. A lot of them get caught in mysticism and ego.

It shouldn’t be looked at in an absolute fashion though, like psychedelics being bad absolutely, that is false because they aren’t bad, once again it is just man kind that makes yet -another- tool of nature bad through ignorance.

The experiment was successful and proved My point but at a cost to me.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Silhouette » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:24 pm

It doesn't sit right with me, the notion that drugs cause one to misunderstand reality.

The assumption is that reality, as understood when sober, is the understood reality - the correct reality, or closest thing to it - and drugs cause one to deviate from this correct, or most correct way of understanding reality.

Apart from the Kantian concept of noumena being directly inaccessible, or the Platonic allegory, we know that other animals have superior senses to us of both the same and different types to what we have. If an otherwise normal healthy human was blind from birth, would the sighted not think they have more information about how the world really is by virtue of their extra sense? And what if we could also use echolocation, what if we we could see light beyond the normal boundaries of e.g. visual light etc.? We would be lacking an understanding that would be more close to reality than we currently have. This alone should demonstrate how there are probably "more real" understandings than the one we are used to.
Apart from the fact that psychedelics can enhance sensory experience, what if their effects turned out to simulate an extra sense that is not yet accepted to increase understanding of reality (at least amongst those who are against drugs)? To deviate from an incomplete understanding of reality isn't necessarily to bring about a worse understanding of reality.

Pandora needs to prove that psychedelics necessarily cannot bring about a better understanding of reality than the flawed one that we know we currently accept as normal and sober.
It also needs to be proven that any lapse in certain senses is not a gain in other ways, or countered by different gains in other ways.

This should quite obviously be an extremely difficult task as it necessitates knowledge that is probably currently beyond human boundaries, at least without knowledge of the psychedelic experience (though may not always be as we continue to evolve - there's no way humans are the most possible evolved of all possible species). As such, it should be clear that more evidence is needed of such experiences, not less.
Either way it's not even certain that even severe illness, and/or confirmed reduction in understanding of reality cannot provide insight that improves one's understanding of reality overall - or at least once one returns back to health. The assumption there is that quality can only occur from increased quantity and not decreased quantity: even knowledge of historical misunderstandings in addition to modern improvements increases the total insight one has overall. And we already know that abundance can cause misery and scarcity can bring about gratitude.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:24 pm

Silhouette wrote:It doesn't sit right with me, the notion that drugs cause one to misunderstand reality.

The assumption is that reality, as understood when sober, is the understood reality - the correct reality, or closest thing to it - and drugs cause one to deviate from this correct, or most correct way of understanding reality.

Apart from the Kantian concept of noumena being directly inaccessible, or the Platonic allegory, we know that other animals have superior senses to us of both the same and different types to what we have. If an otherwise normal healthy human was blind from birth, would the sighted not think they have more information about how the world really is by virtue of their extra sense? And what if we could also use echolocation, what if we we could see light beyond the normal boundaries of e.g. visual light etc.? We would be lacking an understanding that would be more close to reality than we currently have. This alone should demonstrate how there are probably "more real" understandings than the one we are used to.
Apart from the fact that psychedelics can enhance sensory experience, what if their effects turned out to simulate an extra sense that is not yet accepted to increase understanding of reality (at least amongst those who are against drugs)? To deviate from an incomplete understanding of reality isn't necessarily to bring about a worse understanding of reality.

Pandora needs to prove that psychedelics necessarily cannot bring about a better understanding of reality than the flawed one that we know we currently accept as normal and sober.
It also needs to be proven that any lapse in certain senses is not a gain in other ways, or countered by different gains in other ways.

This should quite obviously be an extremely difficult task as it necessitates knowledge that is probably currently beyond human boundaries, at least without knowledge of the psychedelic experience (though may not always be as we continue to evolve - there's no way humans are the most possible evolved of all possible species). As such, it should be clear that more evidence is needed of such experiences, not less.
Either way it's not even certain that even severe illness, and/or confirmed reduction in understanding of reality cannot provide insight that improves one's understanding of reality overall - or at least once one returns back to health. The assumption there is that quality can only occur from increased quantity and not decreased quantity: even knowledge of historical misunderstandings in addition to modern improvements increases the total insight one has overall. And we already know that abundance can cause misery and scarcity can bring about gratitude.


It isn’t the psychedelics themselves that offer a misconstrued idea of reality, it is the individuals themselves, the issue is of intentions. If one uses psychedelics to merely have fun and education is not this fun that one seeks then one will not gain a correct understanding. It takes a caring to understand to gain such.

Psychedelics can help shape a mind to think differently, if they use it for such.. the issue is that people are using these sacred tools not understanding they are tools. So they play with the fire of their minds without the means of putting the fire out or controlling it through logic and reason.

To gain from psychedelics, one must still use the model of thought that is in and of logic/reason or they will be lost in mysticism and ignorance even worse than before, they will have become religious in themselves and not simply, spiritual. Often I have met psychedelic users whom state they meet entities and they do not understand that the subconscious mind has no discretion of what it appears as to a conscious individual, as long as it appears, the entity is that of feeling or of that which one deems more powerful than self. If one deems Odin more powerful and of wisdom, than the subconscious will appear as such to teach the individual. The subconscious is both nothing and everything you see, the illusion is that of diversity, yet it is still the same thing. Where one makes a mistake, is of drawing a literal depiction for something that is nothing, we are what create the something, you see and since we do then we have no right to depict “god” as a one thing, which concludes it is everything from nothing, due to our own diversity.

It is not the tool that is wrong but the model of thought in which one uses the tool. So Pandora is only right to an extent. I will try and type or explain my experiment when I get home on a laptop.

This isn’t the case for all individuals who use psychedelics, for us who study psychology and base our thinking off of philosophical rules and standards will not get lost, for we follow the rules of understanding. (Avoidance of fallacies)

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:59 am

So here is the experiment and all of its facets.

So first I must introduce to you the specific context of what the group is and what seemed to me, it's primary focus.

So this group I had been invited to was a group of which people would talk about their psychedelic experiences, posting images, stories, and more specifically, talk about their speaking to "entities" of which sometimes were depicted as "jesters" sometimes as "aliens" like the greys, sometimes as "gnomes" and even other deities in our own history, like odin, etc.

So I had noticed one day there was this girl who posted a picture of a rock with a face on it and talked about going to go do dmt, I noted that this seemed like worship and of religious elements, of which they all claim to be "spiritual" when in fact, placing value on something in reality and attaching fantasy or the identity of which the subconscious appears as, is religious, which the image is an illusion for a specific reason (one may only be able to understand or know through being humble, so the identity shows up subconsciously of whatever one deems more powerful than them self for this very reason). I noticed she had attached significance to a rock, just because it had a "alien face" on it and that is associated with the drug or "trip"..

so let's take a look at the definition of what worship technically is to determine if it is indeed worship, which I still think it is.

"wor·ship
/ˈwərSHəp/
noun
1.
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
"the worship of God"
synonyms: reverence, revering, worshipping, veneration, venerating, adoration, adoring, -olatry, devotion, praise, thanksgiving, praising, praying to, glorification, glorifying, glory, exaltation, exalting, extolment, extolling, homage, respect, honor, honoring, esteem; More
verb
1.
show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites.
"the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods"
synonyms: revere, reverence, venerate, pay homage to, honor, adore, praise, pray to, bow down before, glorify, exalt, extol; More"

So yes, under the definition of what 'worship' is.. it was attributing value to a rock of which she was tying to an entity of which she deems more powerful than herself, otherwise where is the value in an alien shaped face on a rock? Glorifying a rock in the guise of an alien, could be considered worship. It is at the very least bearing religious elements.

So I Criticized this post and I had stated such, that it seemed religious and that it is mysticism and not to get lost.. I was attacked ferociously with ad hominem.. The classic "You're a narcissist" or "You're full of ego and not spiritual".. those were the most used attacks. Whenever I brought up that they were using ad hominem, they would only continue and not care to see their own errors.

So I had a clever idea you see.. Dedicated based off of the song "Us and them" by pink floyd.. I posted a thread with several images, I will upload the images and the original written post as well.

I intentionally posted from what would seem to other members in the group, an authoritative stand point or of a standpoint with an understanding.. It was criticism aimed at no one specific, but towards the group in general.. I had showed a series of educational images including the definition of ad hominem so the members would be able to read and avoid it.. The test was to see who was insecure with them self and would assume based off of their ego being in control of them.. The old test of "A Fool speaks because he has to says something". A few people commented and tried to understand further, they were humble and understanding.. A guy even commented "Wow this is brilliant dude! It is actually hilarious to watch others negative comments because it is obvious they missed the sentiment".. So after it was posted, a moderator came and muted me for 12 hours after I had responded to them, never using any ad hominem but defending myself against their ad hominem. They stated the classic "You're egotistical" "You need to be more spiritual", for my criticizing and trying to improve them. You see, I never mentioned anyone specific, but -they- still assumed I was talking about them, this is a very obvious insecurity in their own character that I may observe based off of their responses. The ones who assumed I was speaking of them are the ones who feel they are being criticized, because they have something to be criticized about, so they try and defend such without knowing how to defend through logic/reason, so they resort to classic ad hom.

This psychological experiment cost my membership of that specific group and me being hated by individuals in it, (I left the group) after they deleted my post and the work that it showed.

So the simple but hard fact is, the psychedelic community, most of them are not interested in actually learning, but only escaping reality, as Pandora had stated.. Psychedelics may be dangerous to those who do not wish to actually understand, due to it granting a harder trap to escape because of the whole attaching an identity of which an individual deems higher than them self to the subconscious, so the conscious mind may communicate with the subconscious mind. Imagery must occur for this, if one does not seek to understand the imagery, truly.. based off of the laws of reality/philosophy and avoidance of logical/rationale fallacies, then one will get lost in mysticism and become religious, which is opposite to spirituality. It's based off of a systematic faith, of which is invoked by this attributing power to imagery/idea.

To avoid becoming religious due to taking psychedelics, one must follow the rules of understanding.. the same rules we follow here in discussion philosophically.. The model of thought must be based on logic/reason with the following of the rules. So we may avoid this transition from spiritual to religious via psychedelics, by education in more psychology to the general public or very aware and psychologically experienced guides to explain to people what they see, when they see it.. on a trip.

I hope this makes sense, if anyone needs me to elaborate further.. I will. I am going to post the images and original written post below on imgur, feel free to check it out.

The bottom post is the original thread post. the rest of the images are all of the educational images I had posted so others would have the tools and much beyond the tools necessary to avoid ad hominem or fallacy (attacking me), but as you can see, they did not use the tools (education) due to being more blinded by ego and needing to attack me with self projection, despite their being "Enlightened" by psychedelics and "spiritual".. that's laughable, I know the very definition of spirituality and definitely in comparison to religion, let me tell you.
https://imgur.com/a/etQv5fu

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

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Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Dan~ » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:37 pm

Yesterday i had a dream where i was in the spirit world, and my higher self let me try some kind of shrooms.
I remember it as being like time stood still. I floated in space and had a very deep sense of peace.
Also i felt that my higher self was very near me, could hear all of my thoughts.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:11 pm

Dan~ wrote:Yesterday i had a dream where i was in the spirit world, and my higher self let me try some kind of shrooms.
I remember it as being like time stood still. I floated in space and had a very deep sense of peace.
Also i felt that my higher self was very near me, could hear all of my thoughts.


It does feel that way. Your higher self you, Dan, just trapped in a moment not here yet, or maybe it is here and that’s why the subconscious may be communicating with you vividly. :) the subconscious is trying to direct you to it by keeping you on your own path.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Pandora » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:54 am

Pandora needs to prove that psychedelics necessarily cannot bring about a better understanding of reality than the flawed one that we know we currently accept as normal and sober.

To me, this is like spitting in the face of millions of years of evolution. What reason do you have to doubt validity of default sober perception? Why is it flawed? Because you can’t fly like a bat at night using echolocation? Because you did not evolve to see a UV light?
Humans evolved a unique enough awareness that enabled them to survive to this day. Other animals had a different evolutionary history and evolved other traits which enabled them to survive in their own niche. Repeat, different evolutionary histories, different survival strategies, and different evolved traits. Chemically altering your (human) brain is not going to make you tap into your inner bat sonar or whatever animal trait or sense you think is not activated by regular human perception. Because you’re not supposed to have it to begin with. By drugging yourself with psychedelics, you’re not even exposing yourself to external reality, so how can you even call it an exploration of reality when you’re not even engaging it.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:04 am

Pandora wrote:
Pandora needs to prove that psychedelics necessarily cannot bring about a better understanding of reality than the flawed one that we know we currently accept as normal and sober.

To me, this is like spitting in the face of millions of years of evolution. What reason do you have to doubt validity of default sober perception? Why is it flawed? Because you can’t fly like a bat at night using echolocation? Because you did not evolve to see a UV light?
Humans evolved a unique enough awareness that enabled them to survive to this day. Other animals had a different evolutionary history and evolved other traits which enabled them to survive in their own niche. Repeat, different evolutionary histories, different survival strategies, and different evolved traits. Chemically altering your (human) brain is not going to make you tap into your inner bat sonar or whatever animal trait or sense you think is not activated by regular human perception. Because you’re not supposed to have it to begin with. By drugging yourself with psychedelics, you’re not even exposing yourself to external reality, so how can you even call it an exploration of reality when you’re not even engaging it.


You do explore external reality just through a different perspective/creativeness. You still have vision of it, the issue is of if one abuses psychedelics without any understanding of reality and how it functions along with self previous to their consumption.

We are nature conscious of itself, so doesn’t that Kind of defeat the argument of not supposed to be taking or having something? We may choose our own evolutionary path, that’s what consciousness literally is.

Psychedelics would be great in helping mankind connect with self and the inner aspects of mind but just have to be cautious and understand certain aspects of the mind and reality beforehand. They are powerful in helping with psychotherapy especially, due to the communication with the subconscious (higher or external self), consciously.

Our niche is expanding and so must our consciousness and creative ability, to survive and expand further.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Silhouette » Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:10 pm

Pandora wrote:
Silhouette wrote:Pandora needs to prove that psychedelics necessarily cannot bring about a better understanding of reality than the flawed one that we know we currently accept as normal and sober.

To me, this is like spitting in the face of millions of years of evolution.

Criticism isn't disrespect and ingratitude, except to the narcissist by the yes-man. Quite the opposite is the case, just as you tell your friend what you think of their new song or outfit, both bad and good. You don't look at millions of years of evolution and say it's perfect and could not possibly be improved in the slightest - that would be to spit in its face.

What reason do you have not to doubt the validity of default sober perception, in the face of optical illusions, misunderstandings, limited faculties etc.? Our awareness is sufficient, that is all - and only for a limited time at that. When inspiration hits from nowhere, maybe even during a dream when the brain is on standby, or in the delirium of fever, which turns out to be valuable insight even once rational, awake and healthy again - is the value invalidated by virtue of one's condition at the time it occurred? Were you not supposed to have it because you were not at the height of your default sober perception?

Every illusion, dream, hallcination, misunderstanding is really happening to you when it does, even if it's not matching the default sober perception of reality. The ingredients themselves are always taken from reality, just reassembled in a new way that is necessary for both misunderstanding the world and re-imagining a better misunderstanding of it. Creativity doesn't happen from sticking to the default sober perception of reality - sticking to the know and accepted is exactly how you don't create. You need to pick it apart and stick it back together in a new way to innovate - even the picking apart itself, only to reassemble exactly how it was before is enough to humble someone who took everything for granted and accepted the normal failures and struggles of life without question. Only after this can someone appreciate how much of a slave they used to be - hence all the talk of freeing your mind after deconstructing your assumptions through whatever means. Critical thinking, meditation, somehow such healthy things can achieve the same or similar result as a drug trip - does the means really matter when one returns to normal afterwards either way? Was the monk not "supposed" to reach enlightenment? Was the mathematician spitting in the face of millions of years of evolution when they found a common assumption to be flawed? They're all engaging reality - that's the thing about reality, you can't escape it. It's not like the drug user disappears from reality, they experience the same reality as you do, but in a different way - (same ingredients, different cake) and ironically in doing so they expand their reality in ways that will never have even occurred to you because you were too rigid in your grip over what you want reality to be. You know it's all in your head, right? Sober or not, sensation and interpretation is your mind, it doesn't happen "out there". Your reality is in your mind, you just evolved to be able to agree with others about what reality is in a useful way that would appear to be representative of something "out there" through its relative practical success, but which you can never directly confirm. Simple, healthy logic can get you to that basic philosophical consideration - you seem to be putting far too much stock into "that one way that everything is, sober people agree, end of conversation". Philosophy 101 will highlight all kinds of things you can't know that shake up the possibilities of what reality could be - I assume you are aware, being a member of this forum? Why is it wrong if you shake up reality in the exact same way through psychedelics?
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:40 pm

Pandora, humans and al kinds of animals have eaten psychedelics for many millions of years. Birds are likely constantly a bit high if they can manage. A lot of their foods are the sort of poisons that bring about trips.

Maybe humans attained conceptual consciousness because of psychedelics. The use of them in ancient tribes is so widely documented it seems to have been almost the rule. Maybe we are doing so bad as a society because we've banned their use.

Certainly the discoveries done on LSD are interesting. The most famous example is DNA. Francis Crick used it in his research.

And this is my position before this drug, that one should only use it for research or other holy matters. Ive used it twice, and it was remarkably interesting what I could find out about my own mind. Id not use it for recreation.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Silhouette » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:08 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:Pandora, humans and al kinds of animals have eaten psychedelics for many millions of years. Birds are likely constantly a bit high if they can manage. A lot of their foods are the sort of poisons that bring about trips.

Yes, I also meant to bring up the point that maybe Pandora has it backwards - instead of seeing psychedelics as an afront to evolution, one could just as easily argue that we evolved to be able to have a psychedelic experience upon ingesting certain substances - and as with substances like DMT, we already produce it naturally. What is the issue with being induced to produce what we already produce within our evolved brains? Pandora's PC assumption assumes too much: an analogy might be the schoolboy understanding that "bacteria are bad", when we live symbiotically with bacteria: there are bacteria that produce certain effects and others that produce others - perhaps dependent upon one another, but definitely embedded in a complex ecosystem of their own. The good and bad effects are so mixed up within the whole gestalt that it's dishonest to force a good/bad dichotomy from bacteria except in edge cases that are more to do with quantity than which bacteria they are. And oh yeah, we are 10 times more bacteria than we are human, in order to be human at all... In just the same way, it's unscrupulous to divide all the chemicals that effect the brain sternly into polar absolutes of good/bad when they exist along a spectrum just as bacteria do. Reality isn't black and white, a drug induced exploration of colour is no different from any other exploration of it - you balance the quantities of everything on your "bad side" just as you do on the "good side" and it's actually all good, all harmonious with our astounding evolution, and all healthy. I'm reminded of a kid who just won't eat his broccoli.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Pandora » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:09 pm

Silhouette wrote:It's not like the drug user disappears from reality, they experience the same reality as you do, but in a different way - (same ingredients, different cake) and ironically in doing so they expand their reality in ways that will never have even occurred to you because you were too rigid in your grip over what you want reality to be. You know it's all in your head, right?

This is the same way that psychotics experience reality, same reality perceived differently, in their own head (which they come believe to be the ultimate source of it). What you’re really doing is trying to normalize (justify) psychosis.
And it’s easy to hide it behind art, as it is one of the venues that has openly embraced it (I’m not counting religion here and other subtler forms).
The starting point comes in believing that reality is really all in one’s head, and can be manipulated (created) by mind/brain manipulation. The person then becomes convinced of delusional ideas such as consciousness existing before matter and not the other way (mind being the ultimate cause of everything). Enter psychosis. Once one is convinced of this as a fact, magical and special things start happening to him. The reality now speaks to him and him only, through symbols, images and patterns. He’s now a special person living in a special universe, and having a special relationship with it. Much better than being exposed to harsh elements. This is a shortcut to the promised land of milk and honey. This is also a cheap and quick fix. (emphasis on being cheap)

Sober or not, sensation and interpretation is your mind, it doesn't happen "out there". Your reality is in your mind, you just evolved to be able to agree with others about what reality is in a useful way that would appear to be representative of something "out there" through its relative practical success, but which you can never directly confirm.

Timothy Treadwell thought so too, until he was proven wrong.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Pandora » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:27 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:The use of them in ancient tribes is so widely documented it seems to have been almost the rule.

I believe that drugs could be a possible source of religions. But the mindset of the drug user itself has not changed.
Maybe we are doing so bad as a society because we've banned their use.
. If everybody was doing drugs, nothing would ever get done.
And this is my position before this drug, that one should only use it for research or other holy matters.
Holy matters?

Like...desecration? Because that’s what it would be.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Silhouette » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:51 pm

Pandora wrote:This is the same way that psychotics experience reality, same reality perceived differently, in their own head (which they come believe to be the ultimate source of it). What you’re really doing is trying to normalize (justify) psychosis.
And it’s easy to hide it behind art, as it is one of the venues that has openly embraced it (I’m not counting religion here and other subtler forms).
The starting point comes in believing that reality is really all in one’s head, and can be manipulated (created) by mind/brain manipulation. The person then becomes convinced of delusional ideas such as consciousness existing before matter and not the other way (mind being the ultimate cause of everything). Enter psychosis. Once one is convinced of this as a fact, magical and special things start happening to him. The reality now speaks to him and him only, through symbols, images and patterns. He’s now a special person living in a special universe, and having a special relationship with it. Much better than being exposed to harsh elements. This is a shortcut to the promised land of milk and honey. This is also a cheap and quick fix. (emphasis on being cheap)

Perhaps I am psychotic? Is that an implication that you are entertaining? I don't believe I am, I think that whilst it's scientific fact that reality is all in one's head and I realised this before taking any drugs except alcohol, the difference between what you describe as psychotic and what isn't, is in the recognition that there are limits on what the mind can control and what it cannot. Just because it's all in your head, doesn't mean you can control everything that's going on in your head. The apportioning of this control, and how much of it is you and how much isn't, is the difference between the psychotic and non-psychotic.

I read the death section of Timothy Treadwell's wiki and am not sure of the parallel you're trying to infer. Being mauled to death by a bear is no proof that sense information doesn't appear to enter through your sensory organs, that the information isn't carried electrically to the brain and it isn't decoded and constructed into reality only once it gets there. I would think you have to be psychotic to think your experience of reality is direct, or that your experience is a perfect replica of its apparent cause. The common assumption is that the sense data is the result of a prior interaction with noumena "out there" before it is translated into a phenomenological represenation in your mind. The final result is the cessation of mind interpretation of sense data (death) either way, and neither disproves that all reality is in your head.

Again, I figured all this out way before I tried psychedelics - and I'm glad I did, because the experience was enriched by this understanding. This is just philosophy - I don't think you should be trying to pathologise and compartmentalise fact just to concur with the crudeness of your argument.

Pandora wrote:If everybody was doing drugs, nothing would ever get done.

Not true. Especially not when it comes to stimulants, which are routinely responsible for super-human levels of getting things done.

Also, nobody is advocating a continuous life-long drug trip as far as I know. At least I'm only advocating that recreationally psychedelics can be beneficial outside of "getting things done", in much the same way as sleep, contemplation, relaxation and leisure activities can be a beneficial complement to "getting things done". Doesn't even have to be regular or frequent, and of course it is optional - but those who opt out have no authority on what the experience is like and what it can do for you in the positive sense in just the same way as anything in life. Allow me to lecture you all about what it is like to be a woman. How you speak of desecration reminds me of primitive religious ideas that males had about menstruation.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:45 pm

Pandora wrote:
Silhouette wrote:It's not like the drug user disappears from reality, they experience the same reality as you do, but in a different way - (same ingredients, different cake) and ironically in doing so they expand their reality in ways that will never have even occurred to you because you were too rigid in your grip over what you want reality to be. You know it's all in your head, right?

This is the same way that psychotics experience reality, same reality perceived differently, in their own head (which they come believe to be the ultimate source of it). What you’re really doing is trying to normalize (justify) psychosis.
And it’s easy to hide it behind art, as it is one of the venues that has openly embraced it (I’m not counting religion here and other subtler forms).
The starting point comes in believing that reality is really all in one’s head, and can be manipulated (created) by mind/brain manipulation. The person then becomes convinced of delusional ideas such as consciousness existing before matter and not the other way (mind being the ultimate cause of everything). Enter psychosis. Once one is convinced of this as a fact, magical and special things start happening to him. The reality now speaks to him and him only, through symbols, images and patterns. He’s now a special person living in a special universe, and having a special relationship with it. Much better than being exposed to harsh elements. This is a shortcut to the promised land of milk and honey. This is also a cheap and quick fix. (emphasis on being cheap)

Sober or not, sensation and interpretation is your mind, it doesn't happen "out there". Your reality is in your mind, you just evolved to be able to agree with others about what reality is in a useful way that would appear to be representative of something "out there" through its relative practical success, but which you can never directly confirm.

Timothy Treadwell thought so too, until he was proven wrong.


The subconscious did come before.. reactions and single cell organisms still instinctually reacted with other things to bring more causation. Consciousness came out of that. The first reaction of two or more variables is what started it all, is that not instinct or subconscious?

Reality doesn’t speak to any one person only. That’s your own assumption.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Pandora » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:40 am

Artimas wrote:The subconscious did come before.. reactions and single cell organisms still instinctually reacted with other things to bring more causation. Consciousness came out of that. The first reaction of two or more variables is what started it all, is that not instinct or subconscious?



You said,

Consciousness manifests out of the subconscious and yes, it is eternal because it is both nothing and since we are manifested and exist, it's also a potential everything,
You’re idolizing it into an ultimate source of reality, when it’s just another element in a causal chain. It’s not eternal and timeless, and it did not start objective reality.

I think that whilst it's scientific fact that reality is all in one's head...

Today’s science is also (and to the excitement of those secretly seeking reprieve) advertising the possibility of nonsense like holographic universe and cosmic telepathy. The real answer and the cause, of course, is in one’s mind (and altering of the mind is usually involved). And the real indisputable evidence is either just around the corner or observed only under special (or arbitrary) conditions.
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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby Artimas » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:44 am

Pandora wrote:
Artimas wrote:The subconscious did come before.. reactions and single cell organisms still instinctually reacted with other things to bring more causation. Consciousness came out of that. The first reaction of two or more variables is what started it all, is that not instinct or subconscious?



You said,

Consciousness manifests out of the subconscious and yes, it is eternal because it is both nothing and since we are manifested and exist, it's also a potential everything,
You’re idolizing it into an ultimate source of reality, when it’s just another element in a causal chain. It’s not eternal and timeless, and it did not start objective reality.

I think that whilst it's scientific fact that reality is all in one's head...

Today’s science is also (and to the excitement of those secretly seeking reprieve) advertising the possibility of nonsense like holographic universe and cosmic telepathy. The real answer and the cause, of course, is in one’s mind (and altering of the mind is usually involved). And the real indisputable evidence is either just around the corner or observed only under special (or arbitrary) conditions.



Except objective reality was caused by the subconscious/unconscious. A series of reactions of which instinct plays a role. Which the subconscious is a another stepping stone.... it’s even observable in micro single cell biology. If two things mix and it’s a reaction through nature then that shows that nature is instinctual/subconscious. Everything is energy and responds.

If energy slows its vibration by reaction or from a cause and makes a gas which gasses form other things from reactions, eventually leading to life or consciousness then that should tell you that the unconscious/consciousness is from the beginning. A mineral/gas can’t feel, but they may react but it has no concept of time. If something reacts, is that not a form of unconscious or an instinct? Stimuli leads to more stimuli which creates complex life.

Since the unconscious do not have a perception/differentiation of or between time then there is no matter of it being “how long”, it happens and that’s that. It is what it is.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Postby barbarianhorde » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:20 pm

Its quite simple, Pandora -
in order to see how the mind works, you have to see how it errs. LSD and other psychedelics show you what happens when the mind is deranged.
They do so in specific ways. LSD is a non emotional observation of different shortcircuits between senses and cortexes. Its absolutely dangerous, but that is warranted when a culture stagnates, because this stagnation is very much more dangerous, it is what causes genocides and pestilences. You know this Im sure.
Psychedelics are a key to grease the wheels of hell, if you know what I mean,
They too have to turn. Otherwise society becomes stuck in that precise bit you don't want to get stuck in.

So, Athens has its ways with them as well as any old culture that is worth remembering.
If it is not used to ends like these and used for personal entertainment, debasement is pretty much certain.

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