Autumn Asphodel

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

Moderator: MagsJ

Re: Autumn Asphodel

Postby James S Saint » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:25 am

Jacob, stop tempting me to respect you.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25792
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Autumn Asphodel

Postby gib » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:14 am

Meet Mia:



Again, we have a Big 5. And again, one of them obviously stands out as the demon.

Mia introduces us to the concept of "fictives"--she has two and a half--the two are Harley Quinn and Twila Sparkle, and the half is Jinx. It should be obvious why Harley and Twila are called fictives, and Jinx is a "half" fictive because, from what I gather, Jinx is not really based on the fictional character from League of Legends, she only borrows her name from the character.

This concept of fictives tells us that alternate personalities are not just born as blank slates but can be bootstrapped with a fully developed character, and if that character comes bootstrapped with a history (like being from Brooklyn), then the history comes too. I don't know if those end up becoming false memories or just a set of "facts" that the personalities believe. Or perhaps just a narrative. Jinx seems to know that she's from Mia's brain.

One question I have is this: why, if these personalities are invented to somehow protect the host, do we get so many cases of one or more personalities wanting to hurt the host? We have Zoe in Mia's case, the Controller in Autumn's case, and again in Autumn's case, we have the "unknown" personality. At least in the case of the Unknown, Autumn tells us that it was an internalization of the accusations of being fake that she was getting. Maybe it was a way for her to feel that she was on their side rather than being their victim. Still, I can't imagine what she gets from the Controller, or what Mia gets from Zoe.
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
- surreptitious75

The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
- encode_decode

Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
- Rick Sanchez
User avatar
gib
resident exorcist
 
Posts: 8507
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
Location: lost (don't try to find me)

Re: Autumn Asphodel

Postby encode_decode » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:29 am

    gib

    I have been keeping an eye on this thread - I find it fascinating.

    A split personality could be partially(even mostly) explained by some of the ground that we have already covered together - unfortunately the ground that we covered you seemed a little turned off by. I will try to think of a better explanation than the one I had before.

    The memory queue is: memory optimization.

    :D
      Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

      It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
      (Anomaly654 - 2017)

      But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
      - which is to say there is always meaning.

      (gib - 2017)

      Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
      (Myself - 2017)
      User avatar
      encode_decode
      Philosopher
       
      Posts: 1030
      Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
      Location: Metaspace

      Re: Autumn Asphodel

      Postby gib » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:31 pm

      encode_decode wrote:A split personality could be partially(even mostly) explained by some of the ground that we have already covered together - unfortunately the ground that we covered you seemed a little turned off by.


      I was? I don't remember being turned off; maybe lost interest at a certain point. Remind me again what it was?
      My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

      It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
      Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
      - surreptitious75

      The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
      - encode_decode

      Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
      - Rick Sanchez
      User avatar
      gib
      resident exorcist
       
      Posts: 8507
      Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
      Location: lost (don't try to find me)

      Re: Autumn Asphodel

      Postby encode_decode » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:45 pm

        gib

        Sorry if I am confusing the matter.

        gib wrote:I was? I don't remember being turned off; maybe lost interest at a certain point. Remind me again what it was?

        It may be the wrong way of me to put it "being turned off". It could be that I was not explaining my self in such a manner that would have led to a clear understanding of what I was trying to express. I will try to think of a better explanation than the one I had before.

        I am also thinking that what I said before may even seem unrelated. This sort of thing is maybe what goes on with a split personality, I am not sure.

        I myself have been diagnosed with schizophrenia co-morbid anxiety and have noticed that my own memory works in a peculiar way - that sometimes different points in reality(memories) become intermingled and still seem as real to me as if I was having a memory related to my current reality at any given moment.

        I feel that my mind is trying to optimize in some fashion - hopefully I am starting to make a little more sense.
          Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

          It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
          (Anomaly654 - 2017)

          But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
          - which is to say there is always meaning.

          (gib - 2017)

          Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
          (Myself - 2017)
          User avatar
          encode_decode
          Philosopher
           
          Posts: 1030
          Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
          Location: Metaspace

          Re: Autumn Asphodel

          Postby gib » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:47 pm

          encode_decode wrote:I am also thinking that what I said before may even seem unrelated. This sort of thing is maybe what goes on with a split personality, I am not sure.


          I'm not sure if it has anything to do with split personality, but whether we see things as related or not has a lot to do with how our neurons are wired. For you, two ideas might be closely related because they are neurally connected in your brain. For me, there may be little neural connection.

          encode_decode wrote:I myself have been diagnosed with [schizophrenia co-morbid anxiety] = paranoia :lol: and have noticed that my own memory works in a peculiar way - that sometimes different points in reality(memories) become intermingled and still seem as real to me as if I was having a memory related to my current reality at any given moment.


          It's a fact that memories get distorted over time.

          encode_decode wrote:I feel that my mind is trying to optimize in some fashion - hopefully I am starting to make a little more sense.


          That's called adaptation. We all do that. ;)
          My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

          It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
          Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
          - surreptitious75

          The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
          - encode_decode

          Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
          - Rick Sanchez
          User avatar
          gib
          resident exorcist
           
          Posts: 8507
          Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
          Location: lost (don't try to find me)

          Re: Autumn Asphodel

          Postby encode_decode » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:33 pm

            gib

            You say in the original post: Now, for me, there's a question of whether this is real or all just an act. Given that analyzing the act seems a little boring to me then that only leaves the situation as if it is a reality for these people - so I hypothesize on the case of it being a reality.

            I feel the need to hypothesize on these things, even if somewhat briefly - then I feel the need to share even when it might sound strange. I am sure the beginnings of most breakthroughs would have sounded preposterous early in their development. I present only ideas for further analysis.

            I am going to proceed here rather casually and not pay too much attention to grammar or structured propositions . . .
            . . . and let my discourse be more suggestive and intuitive . . .

            The memory queue is: memory optimization.

            The memory of these individual personalities must work in a peculiar way. Having a new personality surface for one, should be first treated as if a new baby has been born i.e. another person added to society that has a fresh set of memories. Each individual personality is different from the next, just as each one of us is different from each other and have a different set of memories.

            gib wrote:It's a fact that memories get distorted over time.

            Yes, it is, and I am thinking that it is a difference in how the memories get distorted over time that might make a difference to how a person that suffers from split personality gets there in the first place. I mean is there any evidence that these people suffer this from birth - if not then they must acquire it somehow - if so then would it not be possible that the "wiring" for memories is being done wrong - either way one has to ask how?

            As with any society there is the problem of real estate; that is that the brain is only so big and linear time only allows one personality fully through at any given moment. I imagine that memories also get attached and not just distorted. In fact I imagine a few things are happening to memory in any given twenty four hour period. We assume that in most people one set of memories are being worked on by the brain at a time but this does happen in such a way as to be parallel and not just linear so therefore I suggest that the splitting of these parallel sequences is part of what is causing the split personality. The memories get attached to a particular personality.

            gib wrote:I'm not sure if it has anything to do with split personality, but whether we see things as related or not has a lot to do with how our neurons are wired. For you, two ideas might be closely related because they are neurally connected in your brain. For me, there may be little neural connection.

            Good points . . . I am still not convinced that how neurons are wired has as much to do with on the fly thinking as we would like to believe - I had a thought that since our thinking is always performed in the past that awareness is actually an interpolation of our two most recent memories. This kind of memory is temporary and strengthens existing connections within the brain that allow for integrations of a new memory at a later point in time. Therefore our rationality is bound by past events. If a past event is being split for a particular unknown purpose then it maybe added to a personality.

            Our memories also adapt. A good example of this is when the brain heals itself - healing is a process similar to what I have presented - well at least it could be.

            Keep in mind that these are some casual thoughts . . .
              Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

              It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
              (Anomaly654 - 2017)

              But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
              - which is to say there is always meaning.

              (gib - 2017)

              Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
              (Myself - 2017)
              User avatar
              encode_decode
              Philosopher
               
              Posts: 1030
              Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
              Location: Metaspace

              Re: Autumn Asphodel

              Postby gib » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:39 pm

              encode_decode wrote:The memory of these individual personalities must work in a peculiar way. Having a new personality surface for one, should be first treated as if a new baby has been born i.e. another person added to society that has a fresh set of memories. Each individual personality is different from the next, just as each one of us is different from each other and have a different set of memories.


              You would think, wouldn't you? But the case of Mia above suggests that personalities can be spawned bootstrapped as a fully developped character with (perhaps false) memories. For example, Harley Quinn is one of Mia's alters and she remembers being from Brooklyn.

              encode_decode wrote:Yes, it is, and I am thinking that it is a difference in how the memories get distorted over time that might make a difference to how a person that suffers from split personality gets there in the first place. I mean is there any evidence that these people suffer this from birth - if not then they must acquire it somehow - if so then would it not be possible that the "wiring" for memories is being done wrong - either way one has to ask how?


              I've never heard of a case of a person being born with DID. They say DID is triggered by a traumatic event. The personality splits so that one can have the experience of "it didn't happen to me" while the other remains dormant or unconscious if it can.

              encode_decode wrote:As with any society there is the problem of real estate; that is that the brain is only so big and linear time only allows one personality fully through at any given moment. I imagine that memories also get attached and not just distorted. In fact I imagine a few things are happening to memory in any given twenty four hour period. We assume that in most people one set of memories are being worked on by the brain at a time but this does happen in such a way as to be parallel and not just linear so therefore I suggest that the splitting of these parallel sequences is part of what is causing the split personality. The memories get attached to a particular personality.


              That's possible. The parallel processing of memories may be leveraged by DID.

              encode_decode wrote:Good points . . . I am still not convinced that how neurons are wired has as much to do with on the fly thinking as we would like to believe Oh, but it has everything to do with it, encode! :) - I had a thought that since our thinking is always performed in the past that awareness is actually an interpolation of our two most recent memories. <-- Like the Fibonacci sequence? This kind of memory is temporary and strengthens existing connections within the brain that allow for integrations of a new memory at a later point in time. Reminds me of Hebb's theory of cell assemblies Therefore our rationality is bound by past events. If a past event is being split for a particular unknown purpose then it maybe added to a personality.


              So how would that tie into your theory about our two most recent memories? Are you saying sometimes those two memories don't always come together? That they can sometimes split, one going off to spawn new thoughts and new memories that are completely disconnect with the other and its new thoughts and new memories?
              My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

              It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
              Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
              - surreptitious75

              The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
              - encode_decode

              Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
              - Rick Sanchez
              User avatar
              gib
              resident exorcist
               
              Posts: 8507
              Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
              Location: lost (don't try to find me)

              Re: Autumn Asphodel

              Postby encode_decode » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:08 am

                gib

                The split personality is more peculiar than I first anticipated and I can not be certain that I am not getting myself a little lost in the subject matter.

                I will perhaps read up a little on DID and leave you with the following for now . . .

                gib wrote:You would think, wouldn't you? But the case of Mia above suggests that personalities can be spawned bootstrapped as a fully developed character with (perhaps false) memories. For example, Harley Quinn is one of Mia's alters and she remembers being from Brooklyn.

                There must be some initial point of spawning; now that I think of it, there maybe multiple points of spawning that bootstrap this fully developed character. I am thinking if these artificial memories are really there then they could be modified memories of other memories; I wonder whether the person would have to know about Brooklyn first for it to become attached - else we are talking about a possession.

                gib wrote:I've never heard of a case of a person being born with DID. They say DID is triggered by a traumatic event. The personality splits so that one can have the experience of "it didn't happen to me" while the other remains dormant or unconscious if it can.

                It seems to me that they are acquiring DID somehow and traumatic events must be capable of triggering the original split and lay the foundation for other splits. Maybe each personality after the first furthers the separation from the trauma allowing the true personality to lay dormant as you put it.

                Parallel processing of memories

                gib wrote:That's possible. The parallel processing of memories may be leveraged by DID.

                Indeed. My intuition now tells me that DID is perhaps even more complex than this. I am guessing that the the initial trauma leads to a type of PTSD. That the stress part of PTSD is not so much expressed as stress but these personalities instead . . . P-T-DID-D? Or something like that.

                Good points . . . I am still not convinced that how neurons are wired has as much to do with on the fly thinking as we would like to believe Oh, but it has everything to do with it, encode! :) - I had a thought that since our thinking is always performed in the past that awareness is actually an interpolation of our two most recent memories. <-- Like the Fibonacci sequence?

                Well, you are of course correct that how neurons are wired has everything to do with it - my thought was relating to the "bleeding edge" of awareness; the very next decisions that we make from the state of awareness have very limited time to be made and works somewhat like a lotto machine based on many different sets of past memories << man I hope that makes sense, sometimes I confuse myself >> Your mention of the Fibonacci sequence takes me back and yes, like the Fibonacci sequence.

                gib wrote:So how would that tie into your theory about our two most recent memories? Are you saying sometimes those two memories don't always come together? That they can sometimes split, one going off to spawn new thoughts and new memories that are completely disconnect with the other and its new thoughts and new memories?

                I use the number two to be more figurative than anything - surely it is slightly more complicated than this - however for the sake of conversation, sometimes one must reduce to the first principles that can be made of a more complex situation - so I suggest a complex interpolation of sorts with a simple idea utilizing two memories instead of the whole picture - I think it proves useful. So in saying this, I would guess the part of the memory sequence that is the furthest away from the state of awareness is somehow able to corrupt an unintended memory sequence in an around about sort of way - perhaps a part of the sequence that has been previously attached to a difference sequence altogether << this is more conceptual conversation filler than anything.
                  Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                  It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                  (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                  But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                  - which is to say there is always meaning.

                  (gib - 2017)

                  Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                  (Myself - 2017)
                  User avatar
                  encode_decode
                  Philosopher
                   
                  Posts: 1030
                  Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:07 pm
                  Location: Metaspace

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby gib » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:40 pm

                  encode_decode wrote:gib

                  The split personality is more peculiar than I first anticipated and I can not be certain that I am not getting myself a little lost in the subject matter.

                  I will perhaps read up a little on DID and leave you with the following for now . . .


                  I recommend watching the videos I posted. The one on Mia is short (about 10 minutes).

                  encode_decode wrote:
                  gib wrote:You would think, wouldn't you? But the case of Mia above suggests that personalities can be spawned bootstrapped as a fully developed character with (perhaps false) memories. For example, Harley Quinn is one of Mia's alters and she remembers being from Brooklyn.

                  There must be some initial point of spawning; now that I think of it, there maybe multiple points of spawning that bootstrap this fully developed character. I am thinking if these artificial memories are really there then they could be modified memories of other memories; Or whatever you think you're supposed to remember. I wonder whether the person would have to know about Brooklyn first for it to become attached - else we are talking about a possession.


                  Yes, but knowing otherworldly spirits, they would probably be very cautious about demonstrating things that could be pointed at as example of the truly paranormal. They don't want to be caught.

                  encode_decode wrote:
                  gib wrote:I've never heard of a case of a person being born with DID. They say DID is triggered by a traumatic event. The personality splits so that one can have the experience of "it didn't happen to me" while the other remains dormant or unconscious if it can.

                  It seems to me that they are acquiring DID somehow and traumatic events must be capable of triggering the original split and lay the foundation for other splits. Maybe each personality after the first furthers the separation from the trauma allowing the true personality to lay dormant as you put it.


                  Maybe. I think most likely: when you do it once, it becomes easier every subsequent time.

                  encode_decode wrote:ndeed. My intuition now tells me that DID is perhaps even more complex than this. I am guessing that the the initial trauma leads to a type of PTSD. That the stress part of PTSD is not so much expressed as stress but these personalities instead . . . P-T-DID-D? Or something like that.


                  Well, PTSD is a case where the stress is too much for all the "healthy" ways of handling it are overwhelmed and consequently break down. Thus you get all these extremely eradic unusual responses... DID being one of them though rare.

                  encode_decode wrote:Well, you are of course correct that how neurons are wired has everything to do with it - my thought was relating to the "bleeding edge" of awareness; the very next decisions that we make from the state of awareness have very limited time to be made and works somewhat like a lotto machine based on many different sets of past memories << man I hope that makes sense, sometimes I confuse myself >> Your mention of the Fibonacci sequence takes me back and yes, like the Fibonacci sequence.


                  You make perfect sense (unless I'm totally misinterpreting you). You mean to say when we think new thoughts--thoughts for which there is no laid down pattern. In those cases, I would think the neural pathways our thoughts take are a lot more random (i.e. creative), and if one person forms a connection between what at first are randomly connected thoughts, another person may need guidance to see how those thoughts are connected.

                  encode_decode wrote:I use the number two to be more figurative than anything - surely it is slightly more complicated than this - however for the sake of conversation, sometimes one must reduce to the first principles that can be made of a more complex situation - so I suggest a complex interpolation of sorts with a simple idea utilizing two memories instead of the whole picture - I think it proves useful. So in saying this, I would guess the part of the memory sequence that is the furthest away from the state of awareness is somehow able to corrupt an unintended memory sequence in an around about sort of way - perhaps a part of the sequence that has been previously attached to a difference sequence altogether << this is more conceptual conversation filler than anything.


                  Ah, that is not only more realistic but believable too. The corrupting influence: do you think that might be because the distance of this memory from awareness makes it unconscious, and therefore consciousness is less able to recognize its corrupting influence?
                  My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

                  It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                  Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                  - surreptitious75

                  The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                  - encode_decode

                  Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
                  - Rick Sanchez
                  User avatar
                  gib
                  resident exorcist
                   
                  Posts: 8507
                  Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
                  Location: lost (don't try to find me)

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby Zero_Sum » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:51 pm

                  Transgendered = mental illness.

                  At any rate society promotes a lot of approved forms of mental illness institutionally so no surprise there.
                  The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

                  I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

                  -Thomas Hobbes-
                  User avatar
                  Zero_Sum
                  Machiavellian Negator And Cynic
                   
                  Posts: 223
                  Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 pm
                  Location: United States- Global Commercial Financial Republican Empire

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby Zero_Sum » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:58 pm

                  ^^^At any rate I kinda do understand transgenderism as a mental illness to a certain point in that it practically sucks being a man in modern times if you're not born into wealth where basically you are forced to go through life alone with no social aid, community protection, and societal empathy being male, so disenfranchised males get their penises cut off made into vaginas surgically next getting breast augmentation supposedly becoming women getting benefits from society that they would never get as being a male. This is the sick twisted world we live in.

                  Disenfranchised men would rather cut their dicks off added with breast augmentation and become women than deal with the sexual tyranny against them in society being male.

                  Add all of that with suicide rates of males and a bigger picture forms.

                  Of course amongst transgendered people there are enormous suicide rates also.
                  Last edited by Zero_Sum on Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:09 pm, edited 6 times in total.
                  The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

                  I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

                  -Thomas Hobbes-
                  User avatar
                  Zero_Sum
                  Machiavellian Negator And Cynic
                   
                  Posts: 223
                  Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 pm
                  Location: United States- Global Commercial Financial Republican Empire

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby gib » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:59 pm

                  Zero_Sum wrote:Transgendered = mental illness.

                  At any rate society promotes a lot of approved forms of mental illness institutionally so no surprise there.


                  Mental illness is a completely subjective term. Redheads are rare... let's call it an illness.
                  My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

                  It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                  Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                  - surreptitious75

                  The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                  - encode_decode

                  Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
                  - Rick Sanchez
                  User avatar
                  gib
                  resident exorcist
                   
                  Posts: 8507
                  Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
                  Location: lost (don't try to find me)

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby Zero_Sum » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:01 pm

                  gib wrote:
                  Zero_Sum wrote:Transgendered = mental illness.

                  At any rate society promotes a lot of approved forms of mental illness institutionally so no surprise there.


                  Mental illness is a completely subjective term. Redheads are rare... let's call it an illness.


                  No comparison.
                  The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

                  I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

                  -Thomas Hobbes-
                  User avatar
                  Zero_Sum
                  Machiavellian Negator And Cynic
                   
                  Posts: 223
                  Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 pm
                  Location: United States- Global Commercial Financial Republican Empire

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby James S Saint » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:42 pm

                  Mental illness can be measured by the degree of which one can be rational. Of course, deciding what is or is not rational is beyond the skill of most, if not all, psychiatrists, but that's a different story.

                  Most people are irrational to one degree or another and in different ways. Most irrationality is not of serious issue and can even enhance the lives of other more rational people, thus is socially acceptable even at the expense of the perpetrator. Irrationality isn't an issue until it is seen as a dangerous type. But unfortunately what is or isn't a dangerous type of irrationality is beyond the scope of the erudite.

                  If a person is switching from one personality to another, the indication is that a rational choice of personality cannot be settled upon. It isn't impossible that such switching is actually the most rational thing to do, but such would hardly ever actually be the case. Most switching of personalities (when not merely faked like these videos) is not the result of careful rational choice, but rather desperate attempts to manage what is perceived to be a untenable situation.

                  Again, in almost every case, such desperation is the result of biomedical/neurological and irrationality issues that are merely enhanced by psychological circumstances.
                  Last edited by James S Saint on Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
                  Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
                  Else
                  From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

                  The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

                  You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
                  The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
                  It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
                  As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

                  Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
                  Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

                  The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
                  .
                  James S Saint
                  ILP Legend
                   
                  Posts: 25792
                  Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby gib » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:44 pm

                  Zero_Sum wrote:No comparison.


                  Exactly.
                  My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

                  It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                  Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                  - surreptitious75

                  The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                  - encode_decode

                  Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
                  - Rick Sanchez
                  User avatar
                  gib
                  resident exorcist
                   
                  Posts: 8507
                  Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
                  Location: lost (don't try to find me)

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby Zero_Sum » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:49 am

                  gib wrote:
                  Zero_Sum wrote:No comparison.


                  Exactly.


                  I fail to see your point.
                  The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

                  I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

                  -Thomas Hobbes-
                  User avatar
                  Zero_Sum
                  Machiavellian Negator And Cynic
                   
                  Posts: 223
                  Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 pm
                  Location: United States- Global Commercial Financial Republican Empire

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby gib » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:28 pm

                  Zero_Sum wrote:
                  gib wrote:
                  Zero_Sum wrote:No comparison.


                  Exactly.


                  I fail to see your point.


                  I'm saying the same applies to you. transgenderism = mental illness is not a good comparison unless you're willing to accept it's only a subjective opinion.
                  My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

                  It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                  Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                  - surreptitious75

                  The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                  - encode_decode

                  Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
                  - Rick Sanchez
                  User avatar
                  gib
                  resident exorcist
                   
                  Posts: 8507
                  Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
                  Location: lost (don't try to find me)

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby Zero_Sum » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:09 am

                  gib wrote:
                  I'm saying the same applies to you. transgenderism = mental illness is not a good comparison unless you're willing to accept it's only a subjective opinion.


                  Your comparison of redheads was ridiculous, that's what my comment saying no comparison was about. For me there is no sexual confusion of biological identity that transgenderism asserts, you're either born a man or a woman. There is no confusion of biological determination.

                  Transgenderism seems to be psychologically reactionary not something that is biologically determined or innate. The confusion they often express is a psychological reaction to a social environment that often enough in our present the sexes are assaulted everyday by various corruptible socio-political institutions.
                  The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

                  I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

                  -Thomas Hobbes-
                  User avatar
                  Zero_Sum
                  Machiavellian Negator And Cynic
                   
                  Posts: 223
                  Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 pm
                  Location: United States- Global Commercial Financial Republican Empire

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby gib » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:09 pm

                  Zero_Sum wrote:Your comparison of redheads was ridiculous, that's what my comment saying no comparison was about. For me there is no sexual confusion of biological identity that transgenderism asserts, you're either born a man or a woman. There is no confusion of biological determination.


                  So confusion of sexual/biological determination is what qualifies for a mental disorder?

                  Zero_Sum wrote:Transgenderism seems to be psychologically reactionary not something that is biologically determined or innate. An expert on transgenderism, are you? The confusion they often express is a psychological reaction to a social environment that often enough in our present the sexes are assaulted everyday by various corruptible socio-political institutions.


                  It's Hillary's fault!

                  Transgenderism and all other deviations from normal human psychology and behavior are just the result of the biological diversity that emerges when a population becomes large enough. You get freaks. Most of the time, in the current environment in which they evolve, life is exceedingly difficult for these people, and on this basis you could consider it a "disorder", but change the environment to suit their needs and propensities, and they become the new "fit".
                  My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

                  It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                  Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                  - surreptitious75

                  The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                  - encode_decode

                  Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
                  - Rick Sanchez
                  User avatar
                  gib
                  resident exorcist
                   
                  Posts: 8507
                  Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
                  Location: lost (don't try to find me)

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby Zero_Sum » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:26 am

                  gib wrote:
                  Zero_Sum wrote:Your comparison of redheads was ridiculous, that's what my comment saying no comparison was about. For me there is no sexual confusion of biological identity that transgenderism asserts, you're either born a man or a woman. There is no confusion of biological determination.


                  So confusion of sexual/biological determination is what qualifies for a mental disorder?

                  Zero_Sum wrote:Transgenderism seems to be psychologically reactionary not something that is biologically determined or innate. An expert on transgenderism, are you? The confusion they often express is a psychological reaction to a social environment that often enough in our present the sexes are assaulted everyday by various corruptible socio-political institutions.


                  It's Hillary's fault!

                  Transgenderism and all other deviations from normal human psychology and behavior are just the result of the biological diversity that emerges when a population becomes large enough. You get freaks. Most of the time, in the current environment in which they evolve, life is exceedingly difficult for these people, and on this basis you could consider it a "disorder", but change the environment to suit their needs and propensities, and they become the new "fit".


                  If nature didn't intend so called transgendered men to be males instead of females it wouldn't of born them into this world with dicks. No, I'm by all no means an expert in that I don't have a college degree on transgenderism, whiteness studies, or under water lesbian basket weaving but I think that what I'm saying is somewhat more closer to the reality of things. Hillary's fault? That was random even for a Canadian leaf.
                  The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

                  I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

                  -Thomas Hobbes-
                  User avatar
                  Zero_Sum
                  Machiavellian Negator And Cynic
                   
                  Posts: 223
                  Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 pm
                  Location: United States- Global Commercial Financial Republican Empire

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby gib » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:23 pm

                  Zero_Sum wrote:If nature didn't intend so called transgendered men to be males instead of females it wouldn't of born them into this world with dicks. Nature has no intentions. You're misunderstanding how evolution works. No, I'm by all no means an expert in that I don't have a college degree on transgenderism, whiteness studies, or under water lesbian basket weaving but I think that what I'm saying is somewhat more closer to the reality of things.


                  It's good that your aware of this, but it behooves one to take stock of what this means. It means that when we speak of things like the reasons one might want to switch genders, or what one's motives are in living a chosen lifestyle, we're talking about things of which there is an external truth. If this were hard science, I'd say you were speaking of things about which you could be proven wrong (with transgenderism and other deviant mental dispositions, it's much harder to verify scientifically, but there is a truth of the matter that should not be confused with one's opinion). In other words, this isn't just a matter of hashing out the philosophical logic of our opinions. There are facts on the matter about which a bit of armchair philosophy won't suffice to determine.

                  Zero_Sum wrote:Hillary's fault? That was random even for a Canadian leaf.


                  Oh, I doubt that. If you had elaborated your point with a few extra sentences, I'll bet you would have brought in "liberals" and the name "Clinton" probably would have made an appearance... that's usually the way these diatribes go (in my experience)... but you may be different.
                  My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

                  It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                  Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                  - surreptitious75

                  The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                  - encode_decode

                  Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
                  - Rick Sanchez
                  User avatar
                  gib
                  resident exorcist
                   
                  Posts: 8507
                  Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
                  Location: lost (don't try to find me)

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby Zero_Sum » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:07 pm

                  gib wrote:
                  Zero_Sum wrote:If nature didn't intend so called transgendered men to be males instead of females it wouldn't of born them into this world with dicks. Nature has no intentions. You're misunderstanding how evolution works. No, I'm by all no means an expert in that I don't have a college degree on transgenderism, whiteness studies, or under water lesbian basket weaving but I think that what I'm saying is somewhat more closer to the reality of things.


                  It's good that your aware of this, but it behooves one to take stock of what this means. It means that when we speak of things like the reasons one might want to switch genders, or what one's motives are in living a chosen lifestyle, we're talking about things of which there is an external truth. If this were hard science, I'd say you were speaking of things about which you could be proven wrong (with transgenderism and other deviant mental dispositions, it's much harder to verify scientifically, but there is a truth of the matter that should not be confused with one's opinion). In other words, this isn't just a matter of hashing out the philosophical logic of our opinions. There are facts on the matter about which a bit of armchair philosophy won't suffice to determine.

                  Zero_Sum wrote:Hillary's fault? That was random even for a Canadian leaf.


                  Oh, I doubt that. If you had elaborated your point with a few extra sentences, I'll bet you would have brought in "liberals" and the name "Clinton" probably would have made an appearance... that's usually the way these diatribes go (in my experience)... but you may be different.

                  This comes to nature versus nurture in debate or biological determinism versus free will, while I certainly lean more towards biological determinism[nature] I will acknowledge that not everything is pre-determined. [Although many things do seem to be.]My views on that are somewhat in the middle leaning more towards biological determinism. Still, I don't think there is any strong argument against biological determinism when it concerns the sexes or gender on a subject basis.

                  While I don't like political neo-liberalism I am no fan of conservatism either as it is also problematic. I see myself as more of a centrist moderate socialist that is disparagingly critical of democracy. In some ways I view feudal monarchy [a more socialized] variety as the natural tribal nature of human beings in social hierarchy. My ideal is the world led by a very rational philosopher king. Interpret that as you wish.

                  Image
                  The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

                  I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

                  -Thomas Hobbes-
                  User avatar
                  Zero_Sum
                  Machiavellian Negator And Cynic
                   
                  Posts: 223
                  Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 pm
                  Location: United States- Global Commercial Financial Republican Empire

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby gib » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:59 am

                  Zero_Sum wrote:This comes to nature versus nurture in debate or biological determinism versus free will, while I certainly lean more towards biological determinism[nature] I will acknowledge that not everything is pre-determined. [Although many things do seem to be.]My views on that are somewhat in the middle leaning more towards biological determinism. Still, I don't think there is any strong argument against biological determinism when it concerns the sexes or gender on a subject basis.


                  Biological determinism makes sense to me. But when it comes to mental disorders, you will find plenty of examples on either side of the debate--nature or nurture.

                  Zero_Sum wrote:While I don't like political neo-liberalism I am no fan of conservatism either as it is also problematic. I see myself as more of a centrist moderate socialist that is disparagingly critical of democracy. In some ways I view feudal monarchy [a more socialized] variety as the natural tribal nature of human beings in social hierarchy. My ideal is the world led by a very rational philosopher king. Interpret that as you wish.

                  Image


                  In many ways, I think the leaders we have are philosopher kings. I don't mean an academic straight out of university, I mean that most leaders bring with them an ideology for which they are prepared to argument in a philosophical spirit. I think most leaders would have to have the ability to be a philosopher at the very least in order to be effective. If they were smart (which they'd have to be) I doubt they'd act like your stereotypical philosopher--that probably wouldn't go over very well.

                  These days, I've been feeling more left leaning. I was a little right leaning for a while and then I got fed up with how much conservatives just seem like major assholes. Still don't have any faith in government though, but since when does anyone care for that definition anymore.
                  My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

                  It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                  Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                  - surreptitious75

                  The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                  - encode_decode

                  Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
                  - Rick Sanchez
                  User avatar
                  gib
                  resident exorcist
                   
                  Posts: 8507
                  Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
                  Location: lost (don't try to find me)

                  Re: Autumn Asphodel

                  Postby Zero_Sum » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:04 pm

                  gib wrote:
                  Zero_Sum wrote:This comes to nature versus nurture in debate or biological determinism versus free will, while I certainly lean more towards biological determinism[nature] I will acknowledge that not everything is pre-determined. [Although many things do seem to be.]My views on that are somewhat in the middle leaning more towards biological determinism. Still, I don't think there is any strong argument against biological determinism when it concerns the sexes or gender on a subject basis.


                  Biological determinism makes sense to me. But when it comes to mental disorders, you will find plenty of examples on either side of the debate--nature or nurture.

                  Zero_Sum wrote:While I don't like political neo-liberalism I am no fan of conservatism either as it is also problematic. I see myself as more of a centrist moderate socialist that is disparagingly critical of democracy. In some ways I view feudal monarchy [a more socialized] variety as the natural tribal nature of human beings in social hierarchy. My ideal is the world led by a very rational philosopher king. Interpret that as you wish.

                  Image


                  In many ways, I think the leaders we have are philosopher kings. I don't mean an academic straight out of university, I mean that most leaders bring with them an ideology for which they are prepared to argument in a philosophical spirit. I think most leaders would have to have the ability to be a philosopher at the very least in order to be effective. If they were smart (which they'd have to be) I doubt they'd act like your stereotypical philosopher--that probably wouldn't go over very well.

                  These days, I've been feeling more left leaning. I was a little right leaning for a while and then I got fed up with how much conservatives just seem like major assholes. Still don't have any faith in government though, but since when does anyone care for that definition anymore.


                  Well, modern society is a breeding ground of mental illnesses where a majority of the population can be classified as being mentally ill in one form or another being the whole entirety of today's civilization is mentally unstable.

                  Today's leaders are not philosopher kings, they're the direct opposite. They're a bunch of weak cowardly and sniveling group of oligarchic schemers that go out of their way destroying all that is natural or wholesome out of life for a majority of people. When a real philosopher king comes into existence his first priority will be to execute and purge these people out of existence for they do not deserve the very air of breath into their lungs. They all need to be executed with their heads displayed publicly on pikes by that of decapitation. There cannot be any mercy or forgiveness shown to these people whatsoever, they deserve only death.
                  The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

                  I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

                  -Thomas Hobbes-
                  User avatar
                  Zero_Sum
                  Machiavellian Negator And Cynic
                   
                  Posts: 223
                  Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:05 pm
                  Location: United States- Global Commercial Financial Republican Empire

                  Previous

                  Return to Psychology and Mind



                  Who is online

                  Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot]