Changing how I view life, when faced with death.

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

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Re: Changing how I view life, when faced with death.

Postby Warlock » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:10 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Warlock,

You said: I never come to an inflexible stance, when it relates to knowledge.

Then you say: Unfortunately, that isn't in my nature. I cannot simply turn my brain off, it goes at all times, even when I wish it wouldn't.

Wouldn't you say that you ARE being more than a bit "inflexible" in your thinking here? And inconsistent too, which we all tend to be at times.

Albeit you were then speaking of knowledge of god but knowledge is still knowledge whether it be of god, in your case, self...et cetera.

I asked you in the other thread What is your nature?
It seems to me that you are using the word "nature" when a better word for you might be "conditioning".


As far as your brain goes, you can try to learn, little by little, to simply allow yourself to let go of your thoughts and your thinking...at least sometimes.
Baby steps of course but you've been conditioned by yourself and because of your past to not allow any open space and freedom in there.
In what way are you being "true to yourself', to quote you yourself, by not trusting in yourself enough to simply let go and enjoy some moments? How can you be a mentor and help others find personal freedom/self-understanding if you're not in actuality being true to yourself and loving yourself by "freeing" yourself.
We can't teach freedom if we can't experience it and we can't teach love if we haven't experienced it for ourselves or haven't tried to.


Perhaps you need to go about and re-define who "you" and "yourself" and your "nature" are. If you think of yourself as "flow", then where does that "it's not my nature" live - except within your own personal belief system of your self.
So why not just try to do what Kierkegaard spoke about - take a giant leap into faith (non-religiously speaking) - and let go and allow yourself a sense of freedom. Just let it fly. It gets easier with practice.



The next night from the Flock came Kirk Maynard Gull, wobbling across the sand, dragging his leftwing,to collapse at Jonathan's feet. "Help me," he said very quietly, speaking in the way that the dying speak. "I want to fly more than anything else in the world..."
"Come along then." said Jonathan. "Climb with me away from the ground, and we'll begin."
"You don't understand My wing. I can't move my wing."
"Maynard Gull, you have the freedom to be yourself, your true self, here and now, and nothing can stand in your way.It is the Law of the Great Gull, the Law that Is."
"Are you saying I can fly?"
"I say you are free."
As simply and as quickly as that, Kirk Maynard Gull spread his wings, effortlessly, and lifted into the dark night air. The Flock was roused from sleep by his cry, as loud as he could scream it, from five hundred feet up: "I can fly! Listen! I CAN FLY!"


http://lib.ru/RBACH/seagullengl.txt_wit ... tures.html

:mrgreen:


baby steps.jpg


Let me define what I mean by "my nature"... my nature is the same as all of our nature (as a species), the way we are before we're bombarded with conditioning/acculturation/indoctrination/etc... such as we see in little kids. Openness, honesty, curiosity, empathy, compassion, etc... to me, that is "my true nature". Little kids do not consider the consequences of being open and honest, until they've been conditioned to do so.

Thus, in the other thread, I was conflicted between my nature and my conditioning. I want to be open and honest, regardless of consequences... because the consequences to my own psyche from avoiding my true nature only destroys me (in mind and spirit)... other people will shape their perspective to protect themselves from my words. That is ultimately their problem though, not mine. I can only control myself, so I don't bother trying to control others any longer... I follow my conscience and believe that it has a positive influence on others (as opposed to a negative one). I could point to the numerous people that I've impacted positively, but I'm not seeking validation from others any longer. I've also negatively impacted people and I've been trying to make amends for those things (the empathy and compassion aspects).

I'm flexible in my views, because of curiosity. I strive to continue growing as a person, if I was inflexible, I wouldn't seek growth.

At the end of the day, I'm not perfect, I'm a work-in-progress. I currently see things as I've explained and will continue to do so until new information is presented to me. I've read everything people have posted and it has made me contemplate their words... some things I didn't agree with initially on reading, but once I pondered it, I found myself in agreement.
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Re: Changing how I view life, when faced with death.

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:22 pm

Warlock,



Let me define what I mean by "my nature"... my nature is the same as all of our nature (as a species), the way we are before we're bombarded with conditioning/acculturation/indoctrination/etc... such as we see in little kids. Openness, honesty, curiosity, empathy, compassion, etc... to me, that is "my true nature". Little kids do not consider the consequences of being open and honest, until they've been conditioned to do so.


I don't think that all children share those same qualities/characteristics as children but I may be wrong.
But anyway, although I know very little of what you have inside of you, I can recognize or at least you would appear/seem to have those qualities about you in part. Like everything else, it would be a process to develop them to a larger degree. I think we flow in and out of them until they become natural to us, like breathing.

Little kids do not consider the consequences of being open and honest, until they've been conditioned to do so

Sometimes they've been conditioned to do so and other times it's more a case of becoming more fully conscious that words, even honest words, can hurt and demean.
It isn't an easy thing learning to break some of the patterns which have formed/created us.



Thus, in the other thread, I was conflicted between my nature and my conditioning. I want to be open and honest, regardless of consequences... because the consequences to my own psyche from avoiding my true nature only destroys me (in mind and spirit)...


I may be wrong here since I don't entirely understand your meaning. But you seem to be putting the cart before the horse. In other words, I think you're anticipating and planning the way you're going to be in all situations. I don't think that one can do that. You speak of "regardless of consequences"...but there are consequences and sometimes they can be harmful. I think you do realize that there is a way to be open and honest without being callous and apathetic. I'm not saying that you would be THAT way. I do realize that the proper way to love ourselves and at the same time others is to be open and honest in our dealings with them. The difficult thing is in finding a harmonious way in which to balance, for lack of a better expression right now, profit and loss for both. We don't want to sacrifice our "real" needs and be made a scapegoat for others but we also do not want to make others scapegoats either.

What is it that the bible says (I'm agnostic lol) "When I was a child, I thought as a child, spoke as a child, et cetera...Now that I have become a man, I put away the things of a child", et cetera You catch the drift. You can't really return to that pristine river of childhood. I know yours was not a pristine river but I'm speaking of the ideal childhood, whatever that may be.
But you can develop those qualities you spoke about at different times, depending on circumstances.


other people will shape their perspective to protect themselves from my words.


I suppose that sometimes it can be about protecting ourselves. It may also simply be because someone in reality does feel and think differently than we do.But you know the saying - "You can bring a horse to water but....you can't make him/her drink it.
This is the image we need to hold in our minds when we try to engage someone to our way of thinking.


That is ultimately their problem though, not mine. I can only control myself, so I don't bother trying to control others any longer..
.

That's a good way of thinking if we can in all honesty come to this realization. Sometimes though it's just so much "lip service".
I know this from my own inner experiences. :oops:
But perhaps it's better to not so much control ourselves as to observe ourselves and what we're experiencing in the moment albeit yes we have to exercise a certain degree of discipline and consciousness and also detachment.


I follow my conscience and believe that it has a positive influence on others (as opposed to a negative one). I could point to the numerous people that I've impacted positively, but I'm not seeking validation from others any longer. I've also negatively impacted people and I've been trying to make amends for those things (the empathy and compassion aspects).


Well, there's nothing wrong with receiving a little affirmation at times. It isn't so much that we need it/look for it, but it's life enhancing when we receive it.
I intuit that everything you said in the above quote is "real".


I'm flexible in my views, because of curiosity. I strive to continue growing as a person, if I was inflexible, I wouldn't seek growth.


Are you enjoying the journey? Is it exhilarating for you? Don't forget to stop at the "rest stops" and remember to pay attention to those signs along the way. lol


At the end of the day, I'm not perfect, I'm a work-in-progress.


You're a mini universe just as we all are.

I currently see things as I've explained and will continue to do so until new information is presented to me. I've read everything people have posted and it has made me contemplate their words... some things I didn't agree with initially on reading, but once I pondered it, I found myself in agreement.


You can also go back and feel free to ponder it again, just in case. lol
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


I learn as I write!
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Re: Changing how I view life, when faced with death.

Postby Warlock » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:25 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:I don't think that all children share those same qualities/characteristics as children but I may be wrong.
But anyway, although I know very little of what you have inside of you, I can recognize or at least you would appear/seem to have those qualities about you in part. Like everything else, it would be a process to develop them to a larger degree. I think we flow in and out of them until they become natural to us, like breathing.


We share specific qualities/traits, as a species. I'm not saying that all conditioning/acculturation/indoctrination is negative either. I'm saying that we as a society, have become wholly unnatural. We're constantly red-lining with stress, that many are a single trigger away from entering a fight or flight response, this is because we have a completely unnatural level of stress... everything around us is pressure on us... from how we appear to how we act, we're constantly being judged and it damages us as individuals. We see this all around us, it's observable and quantifiable. Flight manifests in escapism, such as drug and alcohol use or burying our face in our phone. Fight manifests in defiance, such as violence against others, be it physical, emotional or social.

Sometimes they've been conditioned to do so and other times it's more a case of becoming more fully conscious that words, even honest words, can hurt and demean.
It isn't an easy thing learning to break some of the patterns which have formed/created us.


Why does honesty hurt and/or demean us? I believe that it's due to the perspective that we're taught and that we propagate. Offense can only be taken, not given.

I may be wrong here since I don't entirely understand your meaning. But you seem to be putting the cart before the horse. In other words, I think you're anticipating and planning the way you're going to be in all situations. I don't think that one can do that. You speak of "regardless of consequences"...but there are consequences and sometimes they can be harmful. I think you do realize that there is a way to be open and honest without being callous and apathetic. I'm not saying that you would be THAT way. I do realize that the proper way to love ourselves and at the same time others is to be open and honest in our dealings with them. The difficult thing is in finding a harmonious way in which to balance, for lack of a better expression right now, profit and loss for both. We don't want to sacrifice our "real" needs and be made a scapegoat for others but we also do not want to make others scapegoats either.


Conflicts in our nature are going to exist, no matter what we do or don't do. When such matters arise, we have to look out for our own well-being first (i.e. survival instinct). If I choose to not be open and honest, because I'm empathetic and compassionate of another person's feelings, I'm damaging myself directly and indirectly damaging the other person... protecting people from themselves, isn't helping them, it's merely enabling them to continue being damaged. Even if that's not the case, I must still choose my own well-being over that of another.

What is it that the bible says (I'm agnostic lol) "When I was a child, I thought as a child, spoke as a child, et cetera...Now that I have become a man, I put away the things of a child", et cetera You catch the drift. You can't really return to that pristine river of childhood. I know yours was not a pristine river but I'm speaking of the ideal childhood, whatever that may be.
But you can develop those qualities you spoke about at different times, depending on circumstances.


I'm agnostic too. I do not wish to be a child... I wish to be more in alignment with how I was born, rather than how I was shaped. I'm not looking for innocence or to go back before the damage was inflicted.

I suppose that sometimes it can be about protecting ourselves. It may also simply be because someone in reality does feel and think differently than we do.But you know the saying - "You can bring a horse to water but....you can't make him/her drink it.
This is the image we need to hold in our minds when we try to engage someone to our way of thinking.


I'm not saying that my statement is fact or truth, it's merely how I perceive things. I've spent the vast majority of my life living inside my own head, studying the things around me and contemplating these things from as many angles as I could conceive (especially people). I'm very good at what I do for a living, because I'm very adept at breaking people down... their motivations, needs, perceptions and perspectives... I can glean much from little about people, with a pretty good batting average. I'm by no means perfect, but I like my chances.

That's a good way of thinking if we can in all honesty come to this realization. Sometimes though it's just so much "lip service".
I know this from my own inner experiences. :oops:
But perhaps it's better to not so much control ourselves as to observe ourselves and what we're experiencing in the moment albeit yes we have to exercise a certain degree of discipline and consciousness and also detachment.


Observing ourselves and understanding the reasons we act, think and feel the way we do; allows us freedom to act, think and feel the way we choose to... this is ultimately what control entails... even if we choose to follow our conditioning, acculturation and indoctrination; we still have control over ourselves.

Well, there's nothing wrong with receiving a little affirmation at times. It isn't so much that we need it/look for it, but it's life enhancing when we receive it.
I intuit that everything you said in the above quote is "real".


While there is nothing wrong with affirmation, it's a slippery slope. It's easy to become influenced by how it can make you feel, influencing you to seek it out. Meaning that your purpose changes and with this change, so do the aspects of fulfillment.

You can also go back and feel free to ponder it again, just in case. lol


Ha, like I really have a choice? I'm constantly revisiting everything... even the smallest bit of information can have a rippling affect on your beliefs and conclusions.
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Re: Changing how I view life, when faced with death.

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:59 pm

Warlock,


Why does honesty hurt and/or demean us?


There are cases where it was meant to be that way. Some mean-spirited people deliberately want to hurt and demean others. It makes them feel better about who they are or rather who they believe themselves to be. In other cases, it is because we are human and at times our sense of identity/ego may be a bit fragile. Honestly may demean us depending on its delivery.


I believe that it's due to the perspective that we're taught and that we propagate. Offense can only be taken, not given.

:-k Tell that to the one who so easily gives offence but doesn't have the ability to take it. That silly statement almost reminds me of Nietzsche's "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" in its incompleteness.
But I do understand what it means I think. It all depends on how we choose to take it.


Conflicts in our nature are going to exist, no matter what we do or don't do. When such matters arise, we have to look out for our own well-being first (i.e. survival instinct). If I choose to not be open and honest, because I'm empathetic and compassionate of another person's feelings, I'm damaging myself directly and indirectly damaging the other person... protecting people from themselves, isn't helping them, it's merely enabling them to continue being damaged. Even if that's not the case, I must still choose my own well-being over that of another.


I don't know. I think where such is concerned, different situations and people demand different action.
But ultimately, yes, when it comes down to both parties being harmed, the most rational and practical response is the best. Does compassion for another dictate that we forget ourselves/sacrifice ourselves? No. Compassion has to also be built in right reasoning and seeing consequences. Sometimes there are so many gray areas.


I'm agnostic too. I do not wish to be a child... I wish to be more in alignment with how I was born, rather than how I was shaped. I'm not looking for innocence or to go back before the damage was inflicted.



There is a difference between being "childish" and being "child-like". You don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater though.
Childish is taking a temper tantrum because we don't get our own way.
Child-like is seeing the wonder and the beauty in the world. Having the capacity to see that beauty when it is there and appreciate it is being child-like and THAT can bring you to a more simple and serene self.
I think that the goal to strive for here is synergy, Warlock, harmony, integration.
Describe to me, give me an example, of what you mean by "more in alignment with how I was".


I'm not saying that my statement is fact or truth, it's merely how I perceive things.


Yes, everything is about perception.

I've spent the vast majority of my life living inside my own head, studying the things around me and contemplating these things from as many angles as I could conceive (especially people). I'm very good at what I do for a living, because I'm very adept at breaking people down... their motivations, needs, perceptions and perspectives... I can glean much from little about people, with a pretty good batting average. I'm by no means perfect, but I like my chances.


You might want to get a job working for the FBI or CIA as a profiler. :mrgreen:
Can you tell me in what way what you say above serves others? This is not a challenge. I actually want to know.
You do need to spend time outside of your head you know. You and it at times need a vacation from each other. Just enjoy, pay attention to what you see, appreciate it. Breathe in all of that green nature, the animals, et cetera. That may help bring you back to your "real" nature.



Observing ourselves and understanding the reasons we act, think and feel the way we do; allows us freedom to act, think and feel the way we choose to... this is ultimately what control entails... even if we choose to follow our conditioning, acculturation and indoctrination; we still have control over ourselves.


Does that include "in an ethical way" or simply as you choose?
Do you mean that these things show us the different choices which we have?


While there is nothing wrong with affirmation, it's a slippery slope. It's easy to become influenced by how it can make you feel, influencing you to seek it out. Meaning that your purpose changes and with this change, so do the aspects of fulfillment
.

Well, I guess you do have a point here. That would depend on the individual who is affirming and his/her intent. Affirmation doesn't have to be anything more basically than one person showing another the positive side to them...like being a beacon in the moment. We all appreciate that sometimes. Affirmation isn't manipulation.
Also, I think that depending on who the receiver is, we have to be discriminate about how much we give out. Balance. If we know that someone can succumb to too much kindness, then it isn't kindness to them in the long run. It's poison.

You can also go back and feel free to ponder it again, just in case. lol

Ha, like I really have a choice? I'm constantly revisiting everything... even the smallest bit of information can have a rippling affect on your beliefs and conclusions.


That's not such a bad thing though, is it? Unless you spend "forever" on the same thing to the point of scrupulosity...going over and over it in your mind.
The trick is to observe/see the landscape - not to bombard it with things which will hide it.
We're not perfect specimens. We don't have to question ourselves unceasingly.
Rationalizing is different than honest reflection of self...seeing what's there.
I always know when the rationalizing begins. It leaves me breathless and impatient with myself. lol
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


I learn as I write!
User avatar
Arcturus Descending
Consciousness Seeker
 
Posts: 14942
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:15 pm
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