Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Artimas » Tue May 31, 2016 8:08 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:
Why is not belief in God considered mental illness ? Because it can be based on physical reality

Belief in God is not considered a mental illness for there are too many people who believe in him

So it has absolutely nothing at all to do with physical reality or else everyone would be a believer

Everyone has the potential for being a believer in God. Some choose not to believe.
Free will? Determinism? Neither option applied to choice amounts to insanity.
Nothing to do with the physical? My God experience was a jolt of awakening that was physical, mental and spiritual.
Any division of my human trinity amounts to insanity,


Will isn't free.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:34 pm

Whose will isn't free and why not?
Would an atheist admit that he had no choice in becoming an atheist? That the cards are stacked by DNA and environment does not rule out the possibility of choice among belief systems. Otherwise there would be no change. We could only believe what we were programmed to believe.
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Bob » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:06 pm

James S Saint wrote:Every "theory" is a proposed god (a law of nature): "My theory is that XXX has absolute control/authority over the situation of YYY".

A "false god" is an incorrect theory. Those who worship Relativity are in fact worshiping a "false god". Those who worship Newtonian physics theories worship false gods. Those who worship quantum physics are just devils and mindless babblers.

The theory that there is but one "true god" is debatable considering semantics, but the idea was that none of the theories are absolutely true, instead there can only be one law that can never, ever be broken by anything (aka "God"). Hence, "Don't worship idol theories".

At Dictionary.com, worship means this:
1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.

Do you really think that people "worship" theories? I don't think I have ever worshipped a theory, and so I have difficulty in associating theories with a proposed god.

I did support creationism for a while, after being amazed by a pseudo-scientific book on the flood, but I then recognised the flaws in the argument. I wouldn't say that I worshipped that argument.
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:37 pm

Bob wrote:
HaHaHa wrote:I have been on ILP for almost ten years and the only reason you're complaining is given the thread subject.

No sensible person would call others swine in reference but because your buddy is religious also like yourself you won't dare criticize him. I am antagonistic in philosophical discourse because I like bringing people out of their comfort zones where I'm completely unapologetic for this. You can complain if you want but I will not change.

In fact you haven't considered my first post on the subject, which attempted a rational review of religious sentiment:
I think the main reasons are the mystery of existence and the freedom of interpretation.

Especially today, we have so many possible interpretations of religious texts, that we literally don’t know what people originally believed. Our society has gone through paradigm-changes so complete that we think completely differently to the way people used to think. As a result, the religion of today is open to a vast array of possible meanings – who is to say what is feasible?

The whole concept of life on a rock on the edge of the universe is crazy, but that is the way it appears to us. Because of our sentient abilities, we need theories to stop becoming dazed and batty, and if you think that religious theories are wilder than scientific ones, then you haven’t informed yourself thoroughly. Scientific theories tend to bracket out the mystery of existence with a sentient mind, leaving a gap for lack of explanation. It is this gap that we all try to bridge with some idea that we often haven’t really thought through to the end.

Religion uses symbol, metaphor, myth and analogy to bridge that gap, which was originally far wider than our gap today. But that doesn’t mean that it is any more unhinged than the theories non-religious people have in their minds. What is disturbing, and has been for some time, is the fact that religion has become fanaticised, and fundamentalists reduce the scope of interpretation to their own rendering of the “truth”, threatening all others with the fires of hell at the least.

This behaviour is bizarre, but it seems to show how desperate people are for something that will bridge the gap of unknowing. The fact that there is widespread depression and distress in our society shows that other people show their desperation in other ways. In some ways, it is questionable to ridicule moderate religionists for their acceptance of religious ideas, since they use these ideas to cope with that gap, with the least of social tribulation. For many there is no alternative, if they are to find relief and contentment in their lives.

If we are to question religious concepts, we need to know what function they have in peoples lives and ask ourselves whether there is an alternative. We have to bear in mind that we are all very different in our general outlook, depending on our background and education, so it isn’t feasible to think up some simple solution and demand that all take the same pill.


My point was that religion is in the realm of artistic expression, since it too attempts to describe experiences otherwise unfathomable, and just as many artistic geniuses have been accused of madness, so too have religious people not been understood.

I wouldn't disagree that some interpretations of religion are madness, just as some mad people scrawl on canvases and want it to be recognised as art. But this doesn't mean that art or religion is madnesses. The caricature of the mad scientist doesn't mean science is mad, but that there are aspects of science that disturb us greatly.

The belief in God that many display also disturbs me greatly, since it is often a caricature of my experience that one could deem godly, being superficial, loud and presumptuous in many cases. My experience has been quiet yet invigorating, it has been confusing but in the end enlightening. It has seldom had physical expression, but has knocked me over in some cases.

The same has happened to me at a concert, hearing an orchestra, when viewing a beautiful landscape, or when hearing the sound of the jungle rise after a long meditation. If you wanted to put me into an asylum for these experiences, what kind of a world would we live in?



I myself personally don't want to put anybody in an asylum. It's against my way.

I think the entire species is insane where no sanity exists. If we were to follow psychiatry in its totality we would have to lock everybody up on the planet.

I'm just wondering why psychiatry doesn't prescribe religion as a mental disorder in this thread.
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:57 pm

Bob wrote:Do you really think that people "worship" theories?

I most certainly do. I have spoken too often to too many professors who simply state that XXX theory cannot be contended with (else it would already be done). Thermodynamics comes to mind. When any theory becomes dogma, it is a proposed "god", "worshiped" as holy and intractable. The "Second Law of Thermodynamics" is a notably worshiped theory supposedly in absolute authority over nature, yet that "law"/"theory" was proven wrong countless times. Still today, many professors teach it as holy, immutable doctrine.

Many today profess the Big Bang theory with the same fervor, although that one is more of a theory of what took place rather than a theory of how things work. Relativity, Quantum Physics, and The Standard Model (recently forced into revision) are the more common gods of the day.

HaHaHa wrote:I'm just wondering why psychiatry doesn't prescribe religion as a mental disorder in this thread.

When something is explained to someone in many ways, many times without any of it registering, a mental illness is suspect.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Bob » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:09 pm

James S Saint wrote:
HaHaHa wrote:I'm just wondering why psychiatry doesn't prescribe religion as a mental disorder in this thread.

When something is explained to someone in many ways, many times without any of it registering, a mental illness is suspect.

Okay, I'm catching on ...
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Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:12 pm

Bob wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
HaHaHa wrote:I'm just wondering why psychiatry doesn't prescribe religion as a mental disorder in this thread.

When something is explained to someone in many ways, many times without any of it registering, a mental illness is suspect.

Okay, I'm catching on ...

I wasn't quoting you with that comment.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25781
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Artimas » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:45 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Whose will isn't free and why not?
Would an atheist admit that he had no choice in becoming an atheist? That the cards are stacked by DNA and environment does not rule out the possibility of choice among belief systems. Otherwise there would be no change. We could only believe what we were programmed to believe.


You can't have free will when you as a person are shaped by influence. It's just a will, not a free one.

We have the will to choose, but we choose what we choose due to who we are as individuals, and who we are as individuals are shaped by influence, genes, etc.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:19 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Bob wrote:Do you really think that people "worship" theories?

I most certainly do. I have spoken too often to too many professors who simply state that XXX theory cannot be contended with (else it would already be done). Thermodynamics comes to mind. When any theory becomes dogma, it is a proposed "god", "worshiped" as holy and intractable. The "Second Law of Thermodynamics" is a notably worshiped theory supposedly in absolute authority over nature, yet that "law"/"theory" was proven wrong countless times. Still today, many professors teach it as holy, immutable doctrine.

Many today profess the Big Bang theory with the same fervor, although that one is more of a theory of what took place rather than a theory of how things work. Relativity, Quantum Physics, and The Standard Model (recently forced into revision) are the more common gods of the day.

HaHaHa wrote:I'm just wondering why psychiatry doesn't prescribe religion as a mental disorder in this thread.

When something is explained to someone in many ways, many times without any of it registering, a mental illness is suspect.



A bit vague. I need you to give me some examples.
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:30 pm

James S Saint wrote:The Earth could never have been discovered to be spherical if it was a "mental illness" to believe that it wasn't flat.


It was actually religion that hindered all of that so.......


You're not helping your case here.
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:37 pm

Kriswest wrote:
James S Saint wrote:The Earth could never have been discovered to be spherical if it was a "mental illness" to believe that it wasn't flat.

That is a good point since most at a point believed it was flat. Changes in knowledge changes beliefs. Since Gods at this point cannot be proven or disproven. Belief and disbelief are swinging until concrete evidence for either side is found.
Add that religion is different than belief in superior entities/beings. Is it belief in beings that may be a mental illness or mental issue or belief in a religion?


It was religionists that thought it was flat...... #-o
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:43 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:
James S Saint wrote:As long as a person hates in the politically correct direction, it is called neither hatred nor prejudice (for example hating white males is never pointed out as anything but appropriate and justified behavior).


I don't get why hating white males are getting all the hate. We should spread it around, hating humans in general.
Drop this white male thing and let's make it hip to hate the whole human race.
When I was a kid, there was a periscope turret on the top of the fort. I used to pretend to shoot it at all the passing cars...I didn't suddenly stop if the driver wasn't a white male...in fact, I most of the time, I couldn't even see the drivers. Same with fake shooting people with my fingers.


White males are "evil" and therefore are obviously the spawn of the devil.

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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:53 pm

Artimas wrote:Science is becoming religion, because they teach things as 100% without consistency and experimental data.


Science is equally dogmatic, yes. We are however discussing traditional religion here, namely how a cosmic sky daddy rules the entire universe.
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:19 pm

Artimas wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Whose will isn't free and why not?
Would an atheist admit that he had no choice in becoming an atheist? That the cards are stacked by DNA and environment does not rule out the possibility of choice among belief systems. Otherwise there would be no change. We could only believe what we were programmed to believe.


You can't have free will when you as a person are shaped by influence. It's just a will, not a free one.

We have the will to choose, but we choose what we choose due to who we are as individuals, and who we are as individuals are shaped by influence, genes, etc.

Choice devoid of free will appears to me to be an oxymoron.
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Kriswest » Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:56 pm

Free will is just the short version of : You are free to choose what you will of these choices before you.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Artimas » Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:26 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Artimas wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Whose will isn't free and why not?
Would an atheist admit that he had no choice in becoming an atheist? That the cards are stacked by DNA and environment does not rule out the possibility of choice among belief systems. Otherwise there would be no change. We could only believe what we were programmed to believe.


You can't have free will when you as a person are shaped by influence. It's just a will, not a free one.

We have the will to choose, but we choose what we choose due to who we are as individuals, and who we are as individuals are shaped by influence, genes, etc.

Choice devoid of free will appears to me to be an oxymoron.


But are YOU actually getting to choose as who you were shaped into?

If a person gets beat all their life then has to choose between doing it themselves or not, what would they choose? It depends on the extremity of their getting beaten, genes, and other external influences that shaped them.

You are not just a blank slate choosing freely, you choose certain options due to being you, who you were shaped into.

Free will is choice without restriction not simply choice alone. You may choose something, but it isn't freedom of choosing, your choice may be a direct result from anything that happened in the past.

The past restricts everyone from certain things due to them being who they are. It has to do with environment and biology. Those things act as restrictions that do not allow one to be a blank slate who shapes themselves.

To say we all have the ability to shape ourselves from beginning wouldn't make sense or even be possible.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Artimas » Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:30 pm

Kriswest wrote:Free will is just the short version of : You are free to choose what you will of these choices before you.


But you aren't free to choose because the past has influence over the choices you make.

One can make a choice, but it isn't free choice. Not like being a blank slate.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Arminius » Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:41 am

Artimas wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Everyone has the potential for being a believer in God. Some choose not to believe.
Free will? Determinism? Neither option applied to choice amounts to insanity.
Nothing to do with the physical? My God experience was a jolt of awakening that was physical, mental and spiritual.
Any division of my human trinity amounts to insanity,

Will isn't free.

Yes, the will is not free but relatively free.

- viewtopic.php?f=1&t=188126 .
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Kriswest » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:00 am

Artimas wrote:
Kriswest wrote:Free will is just the short version of : You are free to choose what you will of these choices before you.


But you aren't free to choose because the past has influence over the choices you make.

One can make a choice, but it isn't free choice. Not like being a blank slate.

But, that is part of it. Your choices are limited but, you are free to choose what your will dictates. Heritage is part of your will. It gives you choices. A person or animal that has more diverse heritage has more choices. Inbred or linebred has less. But there is still the freedom to choose from your limits.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:29 am

Only morons think that "free-will" is referring to freedom from causality. It refers only to the presence of opportunities that are void of too seriously detrimental consequences.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Artimas » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:54 am

And geniuses think there is no darkness in space...

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Artimas » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:00 am

Kriswest wrote:
Artimas wrote:
Kriswest wrote:Free will is just the short version of : You are free to choose what you will of these choices before you.


But you aren't free to choose because the past has influence over the choices you make.

One can make a choice, but it isn't free choice. Not like being a blank slate.

But, that is part of it. Your choices are limited but, you are free to choose what your will dictates. Heritage is part of your will. It gives you choices. A person or animal that has more diverse heritage has more choices. Inbred or linebred has less. But there is still the freedom to choose from your limits.



And how can your will dictate free-like when it's a product of being shaped by surroundings? Are desires not shaped by genes/influence?

If heritage is a part of it, how could it be a free will. That's genes and influence determining ones choices and decision making skills, desire and who they are.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Kriswest » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:20 am

Let me add:
You are not being forced by a human, owner, boss, etc. Only you are the one to direct your choices. This is part of the free will phrase. Nature directs choice but when no one orders you it is considered free will.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:46 pm

I'm not for hard determinism. Of course our ability to make choices lies within the parameters of genetics and environment. There is no blank slate; however, encumbered by deterministic forces, we can still make choices that sometimes defy these forces. Thus we evolve.
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Re: Why Isn't The Belief In God Considered Mental Illness?

Postby Artimas » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:22 pm

Kriswest wrote:Let me add:
You are not being forced by a human, owner, boss, etc. Only you are the one to direct your choices. This is part of the free will phrase. Nature directs choice but when no one orders you it is considered free will.


But freedom is when you get all aspects as choices and without restrictions, we don't because of personal influences and shaping.

I am not arguing that we do not get choice, I am arguing that that choice is not free. It cannot be defined as free because it has already been restricted and manipulated. That is the opposite of what freedom is.

Ex: beat a dog everyday, what will it know? Violence, is that it's choice on how to live? I don't think so. The ripple effect is great and a powerful aspect to everything there is, it is like a drop of water creating waves in an ocean, all by itself.

A human getting beat everday, grows up semi-psychopathic, one day the person has to make a choice involving others lives, due to the extremity of the past life this person has had, they make the choice, the only choice they know to kill the others for some reason where they felt the need to.

How is that free choice?
It's like a conscious piece of clay, we play and shape the clay into what we want, perhaps a cup, the piece of clay has two choices: To be a decoration or a drinking cup. But what if the clay wanted a different choice, say... To be used as a picture frame, it wouldn't be possible due to the fact that others already shaped it into what it is.

True freedom has no restrictions, and all choice are open for debate/choice. That's just what freedom is.

Perhaps there is a tiny freedom, between limited choice, but I argue that there may be a reason, even a tiny reason to every choice, which reason could come from influence/genes and restricts choice, without a person even knowing. People don't have to be ordered when they are already shaped into what society wants Kris. Don't you see? It's a farm and we are played pieces in it. Just like the cow being milked. Force brings rebellion from people, shaping them with a system does not. So do we really get a free choice? You may say you get to choose what you want for breakfast in the morning, but do you? Is there a reason behind why you want what you want? Tired of eating something else? Body craving something? Taste buds prefer what you desire? Desire is just another influence/genetic affected piece.

https://youtu.be/Xbp6umQT58A this kind of shows the illusion of freedom.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Artimas
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