Why Consciousness is a Localized Entity

Artimas · November 10, 2015, 7:02pm

If we are all you or a part of your consciousness, why am I disagreeing with you here then? I exist and I am god. I am all there was, is and ever will be in terms of physical living consciousness that seeks all experiences to help the expansion of what is.

Kriswest · November 10, 2015, 8:52pm

Experiments? Well I can think of a few I would do starting with the fetus then following age and size as well as chemical and sensory. If I a nonscientist can think of these basics then what can a scientist think of?

Ultimate_Philosophy · November 11, 2015, 4:47pm

Maybe only we on this forum are real, and couple others.

Artimas · November 11, 2015, 8:43pm

What do you mean in terms of real, physically existing entity? or personality/mind ?

Ultimate_Philosophy · November 11, 2015, 8:47pm

real in terms of sentience

zinnat · November 12, 2015, 6:46am

Going by that, Wikipedia or Google’s servers should be more sentient than humans!

with love,
sanjay

zinnat · November 12, 2015, 6:56am

That is mere assumption, not reality, at least for now. I am hearing the same from the scientists since last 25 years or so. Let us wait till that happens conclusively before jumping the gun.

with love,
sanjay

zinnat · November 12, 2015, 7:12am

Tixie is right.

What AI supporters do not realize that for complete and true sentience, AI must be able to think independently, beyond what is infused to it, in other words Free Will. And, when that happens (if that happens, which will never anyway), the first thing it will do to supersede/alter its inherited programming. It will reject/unlearn whatever is previously taught and start from the scratch on its own, just in the same way as Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden.

As long as AI (so called) is following its programming, it is not AI in real sense, but merely an unintelligent machine without any sentience. Complexity or sophistication does not entail sentience.

with love,
sanjay

Orbie · November 12, 2015, 7:28am

It’s not a matter of jumping the gun, only anticipating a foregone conclusion, which requires, that narrowing the gap, so as to effect unification of field. The groundwork , a hypothesis must always preceded beyond the rightness or wrongness of such a scenario.

Nietzsche was right, it needs be first considered as an ethical question, beyond which, all the other conditions must be met. This is, what entailment has been building toward, the last few hundred years.

Kriswest · November 12, 2015, 10:19am

Really, they have sensory input?
Stick a newborn infant in a dark quiet room , never allowing it to know or feel any contact with anything ever. Care for it would occur while it is in an induced unconscious state.
After 15 years or 20 what kind of brain would exist?

zinnat · November 13, 2015, 5:05am

Orbie:

It’s not a matter of jumping the gun, only anticipating a foregone conclusion,

There is not much difference between jumping the gun and anticipation. Jumping the gun is nothing but uncertain anticipation for whatever reasons, like hope or liking/disliking. Though, it is also true that every anticipation is not jumping the gun by default, but we do not know how things would unfold in the future.

which requires, that narrowing the gap, so as to effect unification of field.

That is precisely what many religions have been done in the past; connecting the dots.

The groundwork , a hypothesis must always preceded beyond the rightness or wrongness of such a scenario.

Agree. there is nothing wrong in having any hypothesis. On the contrary, that is necessary. But, we should keep in the back of the mind that it is mere a hypothesis, not reality. The problem starts when we succumb to the temptation of visualizing the future according to our preferred hypothesis. Let the empirical evidence come before that.

Nietzsche was right, it needs be first considered as an ethical question, beyond which, all the other conditions must be met. This is, what entailment has been building toward, the last few hundred years.

with love,
sanjay

zinnat · November 13, 2015, 5:45am

Kriswest:

zinnat:

Kriswest:

A human brain without experiencing life can not be sentient. No information , no sentience.

Going by that, Wikipedia or Google’s servers should be more sentient than humans!

with love,
sanjay

Really, they have sensory input?

No. But, they have the conclusions of sensory inputs for sure which we feed them.
Secondly, you did not talked about sensory inputs either in your post. You mentioned only information and thus derived sentience. Check your post.

That is what i an objecting. Sentience is not dependent on the information, only knowledge is.

Stick a newborn infant in a dark quiet room , never allowing it to know or feel any contact with anything ever. Care for it would occur while it is in an induced unconscious state.
After 15 years or 20 what kind of brain would exist?

His brain would certainly work, though in the same way as of a child.

Kris, you are confusing sentience with the knowledge. Both are different things. Sentience is the capacity by which the information/knowledge is acquired. if anyone has less or nil knowledge, it does not mean that it does not have any sentience. If sentience does not get any inputs or information, the brain would certainly have less knowledge but it would not lessen its sentient capacity in any way, no matter how long you put it into isolation, even for years.

You are forgetting that a human child also lives in the isolation for nine months in its mother’s womb. It does not interact with anything during that period. But, does that effect its sentience? Let me also tell you that some African female elephants use to carry their babies in their womb for as long as 2 years (23 months), but that does not effect the sentience of baby elephants at all. So, for the same reasons, isolation of man’s child for years also would not have any bearing on its sentience either. Yes, his acquired habits/knowledge would be entirely different for sure.

with love,
sanjay

Kriswest · November 13, 2015, 10:23am

In womb a fetus hears , touches and learns. A womb is not sensory deprivation to the brain. As the sensory organs develop, information is passed to the brain. There is basic instinct programmed but without senses , it is not used, cannot be used.

zinnat · November 13, 2015, 1:52pm

There is no scientific or logical explanation that fetus uses its physical senses in the womb. There cannot be any. You are using ancient societal/ religious explanation to prove your argument.

We all know that fetus is covered from all sides by the liquid present in the womb, which is called Amniotic fluid. That simply means that the fetus cannot use its senses like eyes, ears, nose, mouth etc. Thus, technically, it is isolation even inside its mother’s body.

Having said that, I agree that fetus learns in the womb, but you are not supposed to use that argument because it is scientifically unexplainable.

But, you are absolutely wrong in assuming that sentience can be affected by lack of sense use. Yes, sense related physical organs can be affected by that but not sentience, because it does not use any physical organ to function. If brain is working, so the sentience is.

With love,
Sanjay

James_S_Saint · November 13, 2015, 2:51pm

Consciousness is merely the faculty of remote recognition - no magic to it.

Kriswest · November 13, 2015, 9:01pm

Sorry San, the skin is a sensory organ, vibration, fluid shifting, temperatures, pressure can be felt. I can hear noises in water, so can you , so can a fetus. Smell, sight and possibly taste are not used. Fluids carry sound very well or else why would water creatures use sound?
I have no religion. I do know that infants whose parents and family talked to it while in the womb , recognize those people by being comfortable in their arms and happy. This has been documented by physicians, medical personnel plus others like myself and my husband. Our infant screamed his head off in the arms of the doctors and nurses but, in our arms the boy settled down and was not afraid, he was comfortable.
We talked to the boy every day while I was pregnant.
Sound carries through fluids.
A brain has programming but, not sentience, it requires input to activate such. Without any information self cannot form fully.

Artimas · November 15, 2015, 11:09am

Science backs fetus sensing/feeling up… And skin is a sensory organ, otherwise you wouldn’t be able to feel with your skin. The other senses are developed when the baby is born, except taste… I think fetus has taste possibly as well, which can explain mothers craving certain foods? But I’m not sure on that one.

Kriswest · November 15, 2015, 5:28pm

ROFL mom craved peanut butter with me, it is a favorite of mine. I had no cravings while pregnant, our son is not picky about food.
Good question: is it the fetus or the mother? I think the mother. Cravings are generally about vitamin or mineral needs.

Artimas · November 16, 2015, 8:35am

True, but are the vitamins and minerals for the mother or child?

Kriswest · November 16, 2015, 10:12am

If the fetus drains it from the mother , then it would be both. The fetus may need more of one or a fault may occur and one is pumped too much from mom. Not sure that it is just one reason. Biology can be perfect or really screw up or have little glitches.