RM:AO:Psy / Vector of Command

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

RM:AO:Psy / Vector of Command

Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:50 pm

How do you get someone to do what needs to be done with the minimal of authoritative command?

Vector of Command
This is an issue of the vector of desire (direction and strength) and the vector of need (direction and thrust). The vector of command is simply the difference between those two that will be added by the authority to the vector of desire (already present in the person) in order to accomplish the needed thrust in the needed direction.

So to find the difference in vectors, one simply subtracts the components of the vector of desire from the vector of need. And the result is the appropriate command vector to be applied.

Image

In the simple case of a single desire directly opposed to a need, the appropriate command vector is simply the opposite of the desire with a thrust sufficient to cause the need. If a child wants to crawl to the left but the need is to crawl to the right, the appropriate command vector is enough pressure to cause crawling to the right, no more nor less. And although it doesn't take a scientist to know such a thing (just about every mother does it instinctively), it is a very relevant and often overlooked concern.

Inappropriate Vector
When too much pressure is applied against an incumbent desire such as to be perceived as seriously threatening, a trauma can easily form as a particle in the emotional mind that rarely goes away. Traumas are a particular problem because they do not simple dis-inspire action toward a single direction, but inspire confused, somewhat random, action in every other direction, "associative fear".

The problem with knowing how much command to apply is one of measuring both the influence of the command as well as the state of the individual. The influence of an action concerning any living entity is an issue of the Perception of Hope and Threat, "PHT", not a presumed objective reality. During the 50-60's a great deal of USA children were infected with neurological diseases that caused them to have what is today called "ADHD", "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder" and varied degrees of autism, psychological and psychiatric disorders.

Parents, being unaware of the state of their children would freely use common and normally acceptable punishment techniques to correct minor misbehaviors, such as yelling and/or spanking. Because they didn't realize the heightened sensitivity in their children, they often caused lifelong traumas in their children, further complicating learning ability issues and misbehavior.

A very large part of Western society today is what it is due to inappropriate magnitude of vectors of command by parents, teachers, other children, police, and media. And by the 1070's, the effort to repair the problem gave way to merely dealing with it, "if you can't fix the problem, deal with it". Chaos was not merely accepted, but embraced and inspired so that higher goals could be reached without worrying about individuals. Artificial traumas and catharses were induced as a means to ensure chaotic disorder. Most of you reading this are the resultant victims of that era either directly or indirectly.

Often, rather than the magnitude being inappropriate, it was/is the direction of command that is inappropriate. At times, by applying pressure to the right, a person will go to the left or any direction other than the right. Again it is an issue of being aware of the state of the child and the degree of influence being applied.

Appropriate Vector
On the brighter side, by applying the appropriate minimal vector of command, a team effort or functional social group can be formed and be very stable with very little, almost undetectable authoritative command. By carefully applying the right degree of pressure in the right directions, desires and needs become aligned, all but removing any need for authoritative command.

But as always, being aware of the state of each individual is crucial and gaining that awareness is actually a part of the equation for determining the vector of command. And with expert design, a communal particle can be formed that never dies out (a Social Anentropic Molecule, "SAM"). The key is to be sure to apply only the amount of pressure necessary to obtain the needed goal. And to do that, one must be aware of how much is too much and too little. If one is not aware, one should not presume authority.

This subject can get extremely technical and mathematically precise but I just wanted to introduce a little of the mathematics and science in today's psychology.
Last edited by James S Saint on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: RM:AO:Psy/ Vector of Command

Postby iambiguous » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:23 pm

A bit technical obscure, but noted.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: RM:AO:Psy/ Vector of Command

Postby Orbie » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:51 pm

Vector and topical psychological analysis was tried by a psychologist by the name of Lewin. He has so far, neither been validated, nor non confirmed. The same goes for Freud's theory of psychic economy. That is not to say, James, that Your analysis is disingenuous. It's simply, that, on the face of it, too linear.
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Re: RM:AO:Psy/ Vector of Command

Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:56 pm

obe wrote:Vector and topical psychological analysis was tried by a psychologist by the name of Lewin. He has so far, neither been validated, nor non confirmed. The same goes for Freud's theory of psychic economy. That is not to say, James, that Your analysis is disingenious.

If you know anything about me, you should know that I seldom care what anyone has tried before. I find almost no one within who I can't find error in their efforts. Thus whatever they were trying can't be blamed, but rather their quality of effort.

Personally, I deal only with certainty. And I do not presume certainty unjustly. This issue of Vector of Command, is not a "theory", but a very exacting fact of reality, applicable even on a sub-atomic level of interaction (from which much of it is derived).

And getting confirmation in the field of psychology is about like getting voted prom queen in high school. I don't reject anyone based upon what other psychologists have said nor said that they saw.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
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Re: RM:AO:Psy/ Vector of Command

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:00 pm

and just really wrong, for example:

James S Saint: The problem with knowing how much command to apply is one of measuring both the influence of the command as well as the state of the individual. The influence of an action concerning any living entity is an issue of the Perception of Hope and Threat, "PHT", not a presumed objective reality. During the 50-60's a great deal of USA children were infected with neurological diseases that caused them to have what is today called "ADHD", "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder" and varied degrees of autism, psychological and psychiatric disorders.

K: really? USA children infected with neurological diseases causing "ADHD". SERIOUSLY?
you can't even begin to believe this. There was no agency that could have done this especially
in the 50's and 60's, no proof it was done, no reason for it to be done, this fails every test including the smell
test (it just doesn't smell right) and if you are so wrong on this basic point, there is no reason to be right
on any other point.

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: RM:AO:Psy/ Vector of Command

Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:17 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: really? USA children infected with neurological diseases causing "ADHD". SERIOUSLY?
you can't even begin to believe this. There was no agency that could have done this especially
in the 50's and 60's, no proof it was done, no reason for it to be done, this fails every test including the smell
test (it just doesn't smell right)

Your precocious naivety doesn't constitute rational rebuttal (as you have seriously demonstrated on the government forum). Arguments from ignorance are not a part of science, but the rhetorical rantings of politics (keeping people ignorant of their actual state).

Peter Kropotkin wrote:and if you are so wrong on this basic point, there is no reason to be right
on any other point.

Kropotkin

..typically bad logic, "over generalization", "ad hominid", "association fallacy", "argument from fallacy".

And then using your own chosen reasoning, "because you so profoundly failed every test of good reasoning on this topic, nothing you say on any topic is likely to be relevant and should be ignored".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: RM:AO:Psy/ Vector of Command

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:28 pm

so prove it. show me the proof that this type of testing was done in
the 50's and 60's. Show me who, what, when, where, how and why?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: RM:AO:Psy/ Vector of Command

Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:32 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:so prove it. show me the proof that this type of testing was done in
the 50's and 60's. Show me who, what, when, where, how and why?

Kropotkin

Relate that issue with the legitimacy of the topic, and I might consider it. Although proving a secret to the naive, is like proving to a blind man that the lights are off.

A blind man knows that he is surrounded by people who can normally see things that are hidden from him. But when he detects that they are running into each other a great deal, he has to be extra attentive to his sensibilities to discern whether they are in the dark too much or they are just natural enemies. He can preach peace and love all he wants, but if they are in the dark, they are still going to step on each other's toes and be tempted to blame each other. Too many secrets cause social demise, the cause of which is never directly seen.

When a man gives a calculated command, but the intended effect doesn't take place, he knows that there is something of which he is unaware, assuming he was being reasonable in the first place.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: RM:AO:Psy / Vector of Command

Postby James S Saint » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:00 pm

Every living entity has three most fundamental elements in their behavior;
1) Awareness
2) Analysis
3) Influence

The awareness element informs the analysis element of the situation. The analysis element attempts to discern a properly logical perception of hopes and threats, forming a type of mental map of the situation from which the influence element responds so as to adjust the situation. That is just what life does and is.

A part of the analysis element involves "how much how fast" influence offers hope of improving the situation and/or how much would be too much or too little. Along with in "what direction" to apply such influence, a "Vector of Influence" (aka "Vector of Command") is inherently resolved and acted upon. And in engineering, the "how much how fast" issue is referred to as "Impedance Matching" (matching the amount of force to the amount of reluctance to be forced).

A properly impedance matched situation wastes the least amount of energy and produces the most amount of harmony. In electronics, the term "impedance matching" most often refers to the effort to make sure that a signal intended to be sent down a wire or through the air actually progresses without getting reflected back or just fading out too soon. An impedance mismatch causes either the waste of energy spent with no progress or energy being reflected back in the wrong direction.

Psychologically, impedance matching is the exact same concern. An example might be the man wanting to get intimately familiar with the woman.

If the man says too little or says anything of no concern or consequence to the woman, he wastes his energy and gets no where. His "Vector of Command" was either in the wrong direction (a direction of which she had no interest) or was of insufficient magnitude (seemingly of no consequence to the woman, uninspiring). If the man mentions a subject of interest, but goes too far with it, stating it too strongly or crudely, he wastes his energy because the effort will meet reluctance and possibly back-fire, turning her away. The proper vector of command, properly impedance matched, is what is commonly referred to as "seductive", "romantic", or "inspiring" because it has the effect intended despite to presents of potential reluctance.

The reverse is also true concerning a woman's dress and tease. The slutty image can back-fire as easily as the overly prudent look.

The feminist movement, the socialist movement, and all politics have the same issue of "how much how fast". No matter what anyone is trying to achieve or prevent from changing, their vector of command, impedance matching is of critical importance. "Timing is everything", "use a bigger hammer", "less is more", "trying too hard", "slowly boiling the frog" and so on are all phrases that stem from the issue of "how much how fast" - the Vector of Command, Impedance Matching.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
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Re: RM:AO:Psy / Vector of Command

Postby The Artful Pauper » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:35 pm

This comment is directionally off topic, but yet related.

James S Saint wrote:No matter what anyone is trying to achieve or prevent from changing, their vector of command, impedance matching is of critical importance. "Timing is everything", "use a bigger hammer", "less is more", "trying too hard", "slowly boiling the frog" and so on are all phrases that stem from the issue of "how much how fast" - the Vector of Command, Impedance Matching.


James S Saint wrote:The proper vector of command, properly impedance matched, is what is commonly referred to as "seductive", "romantic"


I think most philosophy could benefit from this, particularly philosophy inspired by the Enlightenment. Rape frequently ends in aborton, miscarriage, or an offspring mothered by resentment. Romance flourishes.

The truth doesn't need beauty. Truth gets along fine hidden in the shadows or bound in an ugly form. It is the living being who desires beauty. Beauty is for eros which drives our living and helps us to live well.


P.S.

obe wrote:Vector and topical psychological analysis was tried by a psychologist by the name of Lewin.


Good job bringing up a Tavistock-related pyschologist.
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Re: RM:AO:Psy / Vector of Command

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed May 22, 2019 5:12 pm

cool stuff man
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