Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby Maia » Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:39 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Because nothing is causing them to take place (e.g. light hitting the eyes.) But that does not mean that light hitting the eyes is the only thing that can cause them to take place. I think it was Amorphos who mentioned earlier an experiment in which man was made to see via his tongue.


I don't have the details off hand but I'm willing to bet that the man had not been blind all his life, and/or had at least some light perception.
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:13 pm

I'm not a neuroscientist. I do not study relations between what is in the brain (e.g. neurons) and what is in the mind (e.g. colors.) Thus, as far as I am concerned, it may or may not be the case that there are certain states in the brain that are necessary and sufficient condition for the experience of colors.

What I am saying is that if you're blind and have no idea what colors are that does not mean the experience of colors is dependent upon the presence of light. It could be simply that these states in the brain that have 1-to-1 correspondence with visual states are simply not activated because there is no external cause, such as light, that would do so.

In the absence of evidence, we have no choice but to conclude that light is necessary for the experience of colors. But this absence of evidence shouldn't stop us from acquiring further evidence. We want to open up the brain -- well, not exactly me, I think that's a bit dirty -- and see if there are any connections between what's in there and what's elsewhere.
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby MagsJ » Tue May 02, 2017 2:07 pm

James S Saint wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Do colours solely rely on light to exist?

Define "colour".

Magnus Anderson wrote:It's the same as color.


:lol:

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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby James S Saint » Tue May 02, 2017 6:10 pm

MagsJ wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Do colours solely rely on light to exist?

Define "colour".

Magnus Anderson wrote:It's the same as color.


:lol:


I expect better from you guys (although I can't think of a good reason to).

Define "color".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue May 02, 2017 9:18 pm

Define "affect".
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
-- Mr. Reasonable
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby James S Saint » Wed May 03, 2017 2:56 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:Define "affect".

Affect == verb - to cause change.

Now back to the topic of this thread;
Define "color".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed May 03, 2017 7:31 am

Alright. I think everyone knows what change is. But what does "cause" mean? What is causality?

Now back to the topic of this thread;
Define "color".


You can ask as many questions as you want but if their relevance isn't evident noone will answer them.

What exactly is your point?

I can give you any number of definitions of color.
Here's one straight from the Google:

color
noun
The property possessed by an object of producing different sensations on the eye as a result of the way it reflects or emits light.

Now what?
What exactly is your point?
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
-- Mr. Reasonable
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby James S Saint » Wed May 03, 2017 7:57 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:You can ask as many questions as you want but if their relevance isn't evident noone will answer them.

What exactly is your point?

It's "relevance"??!!

Color is the very subject of this thread. If you cannot tell me what you mean by "color", then you literally do not know what you are talking about, because color IS THE SUBJECT.

Magnus Anderson wrote:color
noun
The property possessed by an object of producing different sensations on the eye as a result of the way it reflects or emits light.

Now what?
What exactly is your point?

If that is what YOU mean when you say "color", then in this thread, you are talking about a "property of an object". You are NOT talking about a mentally assigned value or qualia. A property of an object can be objectively measured.

But is that what everyone else is talking about?
Probably not (hence senseless bickering).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25298
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed May 03, 2017 8:12 am

I am pretty sure that everyone already knows what color is. Whether or not they can define it. It is certainly not true that you cannot know what something is without being able to express it using language or without being able to compare it to some other thing to which it is related.

If that is what YOU mean when you say "color", then in this thread, you are talking about a "property of an object". You are NOT talking about a mentally assigned value or qualia. A property of an object can be objectively measured.


You asked for a definition and I gave you one.

If you read my previous posts, instead of simply ignoring them, you would know that I am speaking of color qua quality.

My suspicion is that you are making no point whatsoever.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 03, 2017 9:06 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:I am pretty sure that everyone already knows what color is. Whether or not they can define it. It is certainly not true that you cannot know what something is without being able to express it using language or without being able to compare it to some other thing to which it is related.

If that is what YOU mean when you say "color", then in this thread, you are talking about a "property of an object". You are NOT talking about a mentally assigned value or qualia. A property of an object can be objectively measured.


You asked for a definition and I gave you one.

If you read my previous posts, instead of simply ignoring them, you would know that I am speaking of color qua quality.

My suspicion is that you are making no point whatsoever.

Logically you gave a definition by taking it from Google which in essence means that Google gave you one and therefore Google gave James a definition of Color/Colour - how about you offer one from your own brain/mind. I think that would be more interesting actually.

How are you "pretty sure that everyone already knows what color is"? That is a rather peculiar thing to say given that you can only be sure about what you know or would you disagree? I am not trying to be mean here Magnus - just trying to make some sense of what you are saying. I would be interested to know if you are completely sure about what you know.

Anyway . . .

:-k
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby Maia » Wed May 03, 2017 9:17 am

Define "define".
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 03, 2017 9:49 am

I see.

Maia wrote:Define "define".


:o

:lol:

=D>

Nice one . . .

Rational discourse it seems has become unlikely for the time being. Those who partake in this thread need to ask themselves a particular question if a plausible result for conversation is to be had. The beginning view, from what I see, falls upon being able to definitively give an answer(preferably to yourself) to whether you care about the original post.

Let me quote a key pair of sentences:

Frankenstein wrote:Anyone care to ask me about qualia as if it were a Q and A session? :) This will be good practice for me, if anyone cares to.


:-k
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed May 03, 2017 9:52 am

encode_decode wrote:Logically you gave a definition by taking it from Google which in essence means that Google gave you one and therefore Google gave James a definition of Color/Colour - how about you offer one from your own brain/mind. I think that would be more interesting actually.

How are you "pretty sure that everyone already knows what color is"? That is a rather peculiar thing to say given that you can only be sure about what you know or would you disagree? I am not trying to be mean here Magnus - just trying to make some sense of what you are saying. I would be interested to know if you are completely sure about what you know.

Anyway . . .

:-k


Well, I didn't think you were trying to be mean until you told me you weren't trying to be mean.

He asked for a definition. I gave him one. He didn't like it. Apparently, he's asking for a specific definition. I don't know what kind of definition he's asking for and I don't know for what purpose. In fact, I suspect he doesn't know either.

We already know what color is. I am sure there is no ambiguity here. For those of us who have an experience of colors, at least.

One of the questions posed in the OP is whether qualities are real or not.

My approach is based on my judgment that we already know what qualities are but that we don't know what the word "real" means.

The problematic word is not "color" but "real".
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 03, 2017 10:29 am

OK Magnus. It seems to me that you care more about what you are saying than the original post however I have been known to be wrong on occasion.

Anyway, I have a question for Frankenstein:

Frankenstein wrote:What is the ultimate nature of reality? In Philosophy of mind, there are many positions regarding what has real being. On a commonsense level, dualism seems to be the reality. Thoughts, beliefs, and qualia really do seem to be different from tables, apples, and automobiles; therefore, according to dualists, there are two types of stuff furnishing reality. However, the gap that bridges the mind and body remains a mystery-- no one has yet explained how they interest.

Is the last word supposed to be interact instead of interest? My apologies if this seems like nitpicking.

Regarding your post Frankenstein, I found the opening sequence of words "Mary, Quite Contrary: Consciousness Unexplained" rather enjoyable to read - I like how it mirrors the same amount of syllables as the nursery rhyme - rather creative in my opinion. Is this opening sequence an object of your imagination or some other persons?

I will do my best to ask as many sensible questions as possible.

:D
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby MagsJ » Wed May 03, 2017 10:45 am

James S Saint wrote:If that is what YOU mean when you say "color", then in this thread, you are talking about a "property of an object". You are NOT talking about a mentally assigned value or qualia. A property of an object can be objectively measured.

But is that what everyone else is talking about?
Probably not (hence senseless bickering).

I expect better from you (although I can't think of a good reason to).
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed May 03, 2017 10:55 am

encode wrote:OK Magnus. It seems to me that you care more about what you are saying than the original post however I have been known to be wrong on occasion.


You have a very strange notion of what it means to care.

Apparently, the fact that I am not answering his questions -- basically doing what he wants me to do -- means I am not caring.

The fact that I am trying to solve -- and not only trying to solve but also actively solving -- the problems presented in his paper is not caring enough.

Apparently, what is caring enough is asking questions that have nothing to the with the content and everything to do with the form such as "did you mean interact instead of interest?" and "how did you come up with the title of your paper?"

Good thing you show to him how much caring you are by doing what you imagine to be caring.
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 03, 2017 10:58 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:
encode wrote:OK Magnus. It seems to me that you care more about what you are saying than the original post however I have been known to be wrong on occasion.


You have a very strange notion of what it means to care.

Apparently, the fact that I am not answering his questions -- basically doing what he wants me to do -- means I am not caring.

The fact that I am trying to solve -- and not only trying to solve but also actively solving -- the problems presented in his paper is not caring enough.

Apparently, what is caring enough is asking questions that have nothing to the with the content and everything to do with the form such as "did you mean interact instead of interest?" and "how did you come up with the title of your paper?"

Good thing you show to him how much caring you are by doing what you think is caring.

You might have to dumb it down a bit for me Magnus - you are using too many big words. I am not that smart.
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed May 03, 2017 11:00 am

Maybe you shouldn't be on a philosophy forum then.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby encode_decode » Wed May 03, 2017 11:04 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:Maybe you shouldn't be on a philosophy forum then.

Maybe you are right - it was fun while it lasted. Farewell.

:D
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed May 03, 2017 2:14 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Magnus Anderson wrote:Define "affect".

Affect == verb - to cause change.

Now back to the topic of this thread;
Define "color".


That's it for affect, James? The definition[s] isn't/aren't complete.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby James S Saint » Wed May 03, 2017 4:43 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
Magnus Anderson wrote:Define "affect".

Affect == verb - to cause change.

Now back to the topic of this thread;
Define "color".


That's it for affect, James? The definition[s] isn't/aren't complete.

It could be more wordy, but it is complete.

Magnus Anderson wrote:You asked for a definition and I gave you one.

Personally, I agree with the definition you gave. Others seem to be thinking of something else .. undefined (hence the senseless bickering).

MagsJ wrote:
James S Saint wrote:If that is what YOU mean when you say "color", then in this thread, you are talking about a "property of an object". You are NOT talking about a mentally assigned value or qualia. A property of an object can be objectively measured.

But is that what everyone else is talking about?
Probably not (hence senseless bickering).

I expect better from you (although I can't think of a good reason to).

^^^ case in point.

Magnus Anderson wrote:The problematic word is not "color" but "real".

Real == the property of potential to have affect.
8)



encode_decode wrote:
Magnus Anderson wrote:Maybe you shouldn't be on a philosophy forum then.

Maybe you are right - it was fun while it lasted. Farewell.

:D

Yeah, is about that time it seems (a little too common around here).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25298
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby MagsJ » Wed May 03, 2017 10:10 pm

James S Saint wrote:
MagsJ wrote:
James S Saint wrote:If that is what YOU mean when you say "color", then in this thread, you are talking about a "property of an object". You are NOT talking about a mentally assigned value or qualia. A property of an object can be objectively measured.

But is that what everyone else is talking about?
Probably not (hence senseless bickering).

I expect better from you (although I can't think of a good reason to).

^^^ case in point.

...and vice versa.

I thought my reply smart ;)
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby James S Saint » Thu May 04, 2017 3:07 am

MagsJ wrote:I thought my reply smart

Yes, I am sure that you do.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25298
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby Stephen C Pedersen » Thu May 04, 2017 5:30 am

encode_decode wrote:OK Magnus. It seems to me that you care more about what you are saying than the original post however I have been known to be wrong on occasion.

Anyway, I have a question for Frankenstein:

Frankenstein wrote:What is the ultimate nature of reality? In Philosophy of mind, there are many positions regarding what has real being. On a commonsense level, dualism seems to be the reality. Thoughts, beliefs, and qualia really do seem to be different from tables, apples, and automobiles; therefore, according to dualists, there are two types of stuff furnishing reality. However, the gap that bridges the mind and body remains a mystery-- no one has yet explained how they interest.

Is the last word supposed to be interact instead of interest? My apologies if this seems like nitpicking.

Regarding your post Frankenstein, I found the opening sequence of words "Mary, Quite Contrary: Consciousness Unexplained" rather enjoyable to read - I like how it mirrors the same amount of syllables as the nursery rhyme - rather creative in my opinion. Is this opening sequence an object of your imagination or some other persons?

I will do my best to ask as many sensible questions as possible.

:D

Thank you. I am the original writer and yes it is meant to be interact. I had to change my name because I forgot my password when I went absent for a year.
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Re: Qualia and the Mystery of Colors

Postby encode_decode » Thu May 04, 2017 5:36 am

@ Stephen C Pedersen

I did not even check the date - oh well.

:D

Just out of interest, how did the presentation go?
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