do you think that Caesar was happy?

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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:24 pm

Okay, then we agree. But that raises the next question: how did his rationale work?
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby kowalskil » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:42 am

jonquil wrote:... Think of it this way. He was a man of his times; a military and political leader... and ultimately the ruler of the entire known world. He got what he wanted and achieved his goals; then he was betrayed and assassinated. The bigger question is: was the assassination worth it for the perpetrators? Were they "happy"?


I agree; the assassination was a short event. It was negligibly short in comparison with the rest of his life. Therefore, I would say that he was mostly happy, as far as we know. To be happy, in this context, means to feel good about what a person is doing. Yes, it is only a guess.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby lizbethrose » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:59 am

Fixed Cross wrote:Okay, then we agree. But that raises the next question: how did his rationale work?


What are you talking about?

Julius Caesar was either happy with his decisions or he wasn't. He was either happy with his wife, Pompeia, or he wasn't. He was either happy with Cleopatra and their son, or he wasn't. With respect, Jonquil and FC, I don't understand what this topic is about; you seem to.

Until FC explains his first question, how can he go on to another question. "How did his (Caesar's) rationale work?"

Does an unexplained and undefined 'happiness' lead to a rationale? A rationale for what?

I must be very unlearned, but I really don't understand what either the subject or the object of the thread is. Mea culpa.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Abstract » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:46 pm

I think the idea is to speculate as to how ceaser thought. Which can be aplicable to many exterior motivations, considerations, or quandaries.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:17 pm

lizbethrose wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Okay, then we agree. But that raises the next question: how did his rationale work?


What are you talking about?

Julius Caesar was either happy with his decisions or he wasn't. He was either happy with his wife, Pompeia, or he wasn't. He was either happy with Cleopatra and their son, or he wasn't. With respect, Jonquil and FC, I don't understand what this topic is about; you seem to.

I think you are just here to object to me, not caring if what you write down can be understood by anyone.
In fact you have been behaving like somewhat of a lunatic since I have disagreed with you for the first time.
There is nothing difficult to understand about the question. If I had asked it of Hitler, you would undoubtably have taken issue with the very notion that he could have been happy.

A rationale for what?

For his actions of course.

I must be very unlearned, but I really don't understand what either the subject or the object of the thread is. Mea culpa.

Most likely you are, judging by the way you ostentatiously include bits of random trivia in your posts.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby barbarianhorde » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:35 am

Yes but his happiness was cruel and hard on him Methinx.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby lizbethrose » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:42 am

FC--I think you're placing to much importance on yourself when you say:

I think you are just here to object to me, not caring if what you write down can be understood by anyone.
In fact you have been behaving like somewhat of a lunatic since I have disagreed with you for the first time.
There is nothing difficult to understand about the question. If I had asked it of Hitler, you would undoubtably have taken issue with the very notion that he could have been happy.


I asked you to identify the Caesar about whom you were speaking, since there were more than one and they were all soldiers. I know some things--such as where his name came from and who his wife was, his affair with Cleopatra, etc--because I was in a high school production of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar and read a lot about him so as to give thought behind my character. And I asked who really cared whether or not he was 'happy,'

I asked that question in an effort to understand what the intent of the thread was; which is something I still don't understand! I could have asked, "What do you mean by 'happy?"--I didn't because I didn't know where you wanted to go with your thread. Perhaps I should have. I mean, it's like asking if Genghis Khan, or Saladin, or Constantine, or Alexander, or (yes, even) Hitler was happy! I imagine they all were--I imagine they all had unhappy times, as well.

So, I'll ask now, what do you mean by 'happy?' Do you mean, "Did Caesar have a feeling of pride and accomplishment when he did his job as he thought his job was?" Would he have done his job if he didn't?

If he had a feeling of pride and accomplishment because he was able to bring more land under Roman control, thereby expanding the Roman Empire, which do you think meant the most to him--his personal feelings, or expanding the Roman Empire?
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby lizbethrose » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:01 am

I also meant to ask you when you disagreed with me the first time.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:59 pm

lizbethrose wrote:I asked you to identify the Caesar about whom you were speaking, since there were more than one and they were all soldiers. I know some things--such as where his name came from and who his wife was, his affair with Cleopatra, etc--because I was in a high school production of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar and read a lot about him so as to give thought behind my character. And I asked who really cared whether or not he was 'happy,'

I asked that question in an effort to understand what the intent of the thread was; which is something I still don't understand! I could have asked, "What do you mean by 'happy?"--I didn't because I didn't know where you wanted to go with your thread. Perhaps I should have. I mean, it's like asking if Genghis Khan, or Saladin, or Constantine, or Alexander, or (yes, even) Hitler was happy! I imagine they all were--I imagine they all had unhappy times, as well.

So, I'll ask now, what do you mean by 'happy?' Do you mean, "Did Caesar have a feeling of pride and accomplishment when he did his job as he thought his job was?" Would he have done his job if he didn't?

If he had a feeling of pride and accomplishment because he was able to bring more land under Roman control, thereby expanding the Roman Empire, which do you think meant the most to him--his personal feelings, or expanding the Roman Empire?

I think the two were inextricably linked. Because I do not think that humans can experience anything separate from their context. I think that he would have been unhappy if he had continued to fail as a statesman/conquerer.

By the way, I have strong doubts that Hitler was as happy as Caesar (I am talking about Julius, the one who is in the play). I think that a man going out into the field, exploring territory, meeting different cultures and having a healthy sex life, to name some things that distinguish Caesar from Hitler, is more prone to happiness (I think we both understand the meaning of the word) than someone who doesn't do any of these things.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:03 pm

lizbethrose wrote:
Flannel Jesus wrote:
lizbethrose wrote:Beyond that, who really cares whether or not a ruler of the Roman Empire was 'happy?' Does that have any relevance to how history transpired?

What relevance does how history transpired have to the OP? He didn't ask how history transpired. He asked if you think Caesar was happy.


That doesn't answer my question about which Caesar we supposed to be discussing: in Roman history there were many. I asked FC which Caesar he meant--a perfectly legitimate question before any answer to his op can be given. If he meant Julius Caesar, that's fine. But what's he trying to ask? Was Julius Caesar 'happy' when Cleopatra came to him wrapped in a rug? Was he happy during his affair with her? Was he happy when he was victorious in battle? Was he happy when he was declared "dictator in perpetuity?" Was he happy when Crassus died?

Or does FC want to talk about the 'feeling' of happiness, in general?

And, please, let FC answer--it's his topic, after all.

One of the things I am interested in is the general "climate" of Caesars feelings. Of course there is no real way of finding this out. So for that reason I am interested in what people would think, if anyone has any psychological insights into the man.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Abstract » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:58 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
lizbethrose wrote:I asked you to identify the Caesar about whom you were speaking, since there were more than one and they were all soldiers. I know some things--such as where his name came from and who his wife was, his affair with Cleopatra, etc--because I was in a high school production of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar and read a lot about him so as to give thought behind my character. And I asked who really cared whether or not he was 'happy,'

I asked that question in an effort to understand what the intent of the thread was; which is something I still don't understand! I could have asked, "What do you mean by 'happy?"--I didn't because I didn't know where you wanted to go with your thread. Perhaps I should have. I mean, it's like asking if Genghis Khan, or Saladin, or Constantine, or Alexander, or (yes, even) Hitler was happy! I imagine they all were--I imagine they all had unhappy times, as well.

So, I'll ask now, what do you mean by 'happy?' Do you mean, "Did Caesar have a feeling of pride and accomplishment when he did his job as he thought his job was?" Would he have done his job if he didn't?

If he had a feeling of pride and accomplishment because he was able to bring more land under Roman control, thereby expanding the Roman Empire, which do you think meant the most to him--his personal feelings, or expanding the Roman Empire?

I think the two were inextricably linked. Because I do not think that humans can experience anything separate from their context. I think that he would have been unhappy if he had continued to fail as a statesman/conquerer.

By the way, I have strong doubts that Hitler was as happy as Caesar (I am talking about Julius, the one who is in the play). I think that a man going out into the field, exploring territory, meeting different cultures and having a healthy sex life, to name some things that distinguish Caesar from Hitler, is more prone to happiness (I think we both understand the meaning of the word) than someone who doesn't do any of these things.

Hitler may have had a healthy sex life...not necessarily an acceptable one though...
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Abstract » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:00 pm

As for Caesar i would imagine he thought what he was doing was correct and probably his destiny and was likely rather content in so far as he probably thought that what he was doing was fulfilling the desires of the Gods...
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:04 pm

Do you mean to say that he may have been gay?
I do not think that this is necessarily unhealthy either. I just think that it is relatively unhealthy to have to sneak around and hide in such matters.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:13 pm

Abstract wrote:As for Caesar i would imagine he thought what he was doing was correct and probably his destiny and was likely rather content in so far as he probably thought that what he was doing was fulfilling the desires of the Gods...

I don't think that was the case. The Romans were not especially pious. Their sense of honor and duty was very much tied to the Roman state and personal glory. Their main protector Gods as far as I know were Jupiter, Venus and Vesta. All three of them were interpreted as being naturally favorably inclined toward Rome - and unlike the Greeks they did not have very vivid notions of antagonistic and wrathful Gods. From what I have read, anyway.

The "beauty" of the Roman "soul" is in part the great context for individuality and personal will. They were not a passive people tied to the will of the Gods, they just assumed that the greatest Gods were with them.

I do not think that Caesar must have had strong notions of correctness. I think that honor and pride were much stronger motivations than a good/evil morality.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Abstract » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:13 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Do you mean to say that he may have been gay?
I do not think that this is necessarily unhealthy either. I just think that it is relatively unhealthy to have to sneak around and hide in such matters.

Hiteler may have been, there have been indications though it is hard to say what is or isn't just fabricated BS...
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:19 pm

Abstract wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Do you mean to say that he may have been gay?
I do not think that this is necessarily unhealthy either. I just think that it is relatively unhealthy to have to sneak around and hide in such matters.

Hiteler may have been, there have been indications though it is hard to say what is or isn't just fabricated BS...

Caesar has also been "accused" by his contemporaries of being at least gay-ish, because of how he walked and how his belt was loosely hinging on his hip. Of course even stronger rumors go around about Alexander. I do not think that homosexuality stands in any fixed relation to bad health.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Abstract » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:30 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Do you mean to say that he may have been gay?
I do not think that this is necessarily unhealthy either. I just think that it is relatively unhealthy to have to sneak around and hide in such matters.

Hiteler may have been, there have been indications though it is hard to say what is or isn't just fabricated BS...

Caesar has also been "accused" by his contemporaries of being at least gay-ish, because of how he walked and how his belt was loosely hinging on his hip. Of course even stronger rumors go around about Alexander. I do not think that homosexuality stands in any fixed relation to bad health.

No i wouldn't think it does either... rather i was saying that Hitler though out of sight in his sexual life, may have actually had what we now consider a healthy one, with the possible influence of some negativity presuming he actually had to hide it very much from say those close to him...
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:46 pm

Abstract wrote: rather i was saying that Hitler though out of sight in his sexual life, may have actually had what we now consider a healthy one, with the possible influence of some negativity presuming he actually had to hide it very much from say those close to him...

I am reminded of this aphorism by Nietzsche:

"The degree and kind of a man's sexuality reach up into the ultimate pinnacle of his spirit."

I suppose we may understand a great deal of Hitlers sex life by looking at his ideals. It is clear that he was certainly not impotent!
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Abstract » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:47 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
Abstract wrote: rather i was saying that Hitler though out of sight in his sexual life, may have actually had what we now consider a healthy one, with the possible influence of some negativity presuming he actually had to hide it very much from say those close to him...

I am reminded of this aphorism by Nietzsche:

"The degree and kind of a man's sexuality reach up into the ultimate pinnacle of his spirit."

I suppose we may understand a great deal of Hitlers sex life by looking at his ideals. It is clear that he was certainly not impotent!

i imagine that it is quite probable that he was quite sexually active likely even hetero sexually but hid it so as not to dissway the public...though it is plausible that he did not find sex necessary...I do not..personally...
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby The Golden Turd » Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:54 am

How is happiness, a purely emotional state, moral or immoral? It is neither a vice nor a virtue, purely a reactive state, not the idea.

Humility is a introspective form rooted on shame (decreased serotonin), that exploits several feedback loop a in the mind simultaneously. But a mere increase is not happiness. Happiness can be known without a fluxuation in serotonin, but the absence of Noradrenaline or Dopamine as well.

These are very different transitive states, dependent of the durability of social circumstance.

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His contemporaries, those still loyal to the republic, focused on giving him "surprise".... A death that screams out over the ages, to match his fame, that the rules of Tyrants would not be tolerated. The attack is one of pure serotonin and noradrenaline, causing a serotonin collapse in Caesar.... That serotonin mixed with dopamine gave him joy. He wasn't angry when he died, was surprised, but felt more betrayed, on a familiar basis.... Et Tu Brutus?

Sounds like they got the formula wrong.... His dopamine was still intact till the last, he wasn't angry.... was shocked.

How did Marc Anthony and Octavius react? Marc was fearful, Octavius was angry.

They actions react to a void.... Happiness can be many things, but I suspect for Caesar it was just a serotonin and dopamine high. His two political heirs had to unite to rebuild Caesars system, and in their successes, outdid Caesar. It was a very exciting time.... Drove them to civil war, changed it well beyond what Caesar intended. Caesar had a lesser vision. They would eventually split the empire between them and and seek to slay one another. Anthony was the lover and soldier of necessity, campaigning far in the east into Azerbaijan for Cleopatra, Anthony drove the masses to Anthony's indignities in submitting to a foreign, decadent queen, betraying the principles of the republic (cough cough hipocrit)
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:56 pm

Cesar was not happy, he was probably trasexual. Did you ever watch Titus?

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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby The Golden Turd » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:28 pm

He was bisexual, not a tranny.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:07 pm

Turd Ferguson wrote:He was bisexual, not a tranny.


Those two aren't mutually exclusive.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:25 pm

The Golden Turd wrote:Image

This is actually interesting.

Wiki wrote:Basic emotion Serotonin Dopamine Noradrenaline
Shame/humiliation Low Low Low
Distress/anguish Low Low High
Fear/terror Low High Low
Anger/rage Low High High
Contempt/disgust High Low Low
Surprise/startle High Low High
Enjoyment/joy High High Low
Interest/excitement High High High

So excitement and interest are the most chemically optimal states. Its valuable to not that one requires joy to be interested in anything. That is true, and corresponds to the notion that understanding can only occur based on valuing. Neutrality is not a possibility. Scientific understanding is based on joy. So Caesar, in all his methodical efficiency, would have been happy.
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Re: do you think that Caesar was happy?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:40 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:if not, why?
If so, what does that say about morality of happiness?

What are morals for except means to get happy?


I don't understand the relationship between morals and happiness, Jakob.

If morals are a means to happiness, and ONLY a means to happiness, can they actually then be called morals? I'm not sure. I'm just asking.
It just seems to me then that that so-called moral person is more or less just a hedonist, just as a mystic to me in a sense is also a hedonist. At the end of the day, is the hedonist a happy person or do they just want more more more more more.

As far as Caesar goes, he was probably happier than some of us and less happy than others.

Do you think that he was a happy camper when he was in Cleopatra's arms or might he have been just thinking about his next conquest. It may seem funny but who could know the mind of Caesar. lol
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