Do personality disorders truly exist?

Long before the words “bi-polar” or “clinically depressed” were coined, there was Virginia Woolf and Van Gogh who were moody and sad and ecstatic and lyrical. However before the concept of psychiatric disease arose, these people were not considered “disordered” …rather they were geniuses. I wonder if Beethoven lived today, if he would be sent to a mental institution for hearing music while being deaf…because that’s not “normal”.

Nowadays in America you have teenagers being diagnosed with psychiatric diseases and being given pills…Prozac for instance, to “Cure” them of that disease. But is sadness a disease? Is moodiness a disease? Even narcissism…nobody could deny that Napoleon was a narcissist. Nowadays rather than being called imperious, overlording, he would “have issues” and an “inflated ego”, perhaps need “counseling”.

My hypothesis is that what people nowadays label as mental illnesses are no more than the normal variations of human personality that are liable to occur in a population.

I agree. I also feel that, while there are, of course, a small number of legitimate cases, many of the drugs given to patients are unecessary. I firmly believe that ADD and ADHD can be easily corrected with some healthy discipline and a solid upbringing.

If you ever spoke to someone who was bipolar or schizophrenic, you would most likely say that mental diseases do exist. Long before these coins were phrased, I think that the same people would be diagnosed as being possessed by the devil. As for ADD and depression, this is a gray area. I do think that there are people that need to go through some treatment, but we are probably going overboard.

Many famous artists are/were bipolar. In the manic (“up”) stage, creativity is aided. Hemingway among others is an example of this. Unfortunately, there is a corresponding depressive stage. Hemingway, and his death by a self-inflicted shotgun blast to the head, is also an example of this aspect.

while i know nothing about all this, id like to add that the great kafka had symtoms of major depression (bipolar?). his creative bursts came during both his depressed states and whatever elevation he felt. his aphorisms and short stories (all saved from his diaries and compiled) are depressed, melodramatic ramblings one would “scribble” into diaries… i wish he didnt have to suffer like that but if he didnt, there wouldnt be his wonderful words.
this has been irrelevent. ah, but then. can you tell im a fan?

I’ll start by responding to the question with my own belief. I would have to say that “personality disorders” or “abnormal behavior” in general are not a “problem” in the sense that there is something wrong with the individual. I would base that solely on the premise that persons or personalities are individual and are going to be different. The fact is we catagorize things and what is abnormal is what is not common, thus they are a danger to society and we label them disordered or abnormal. For instance, take a native living in the amazon and tell him to go live the capitalistic life. First, he wouldn’t be able to for obvious reasons, but his practices and his beliefs and behavior would be labeled abnormal and disturbed. Another example, polygamy. Other cultures allow for this as common practice. Set them in our society and there’s something wrong with them.

Now, to offer different perspectives. The first I’d have to state the psychological perspective. I already stated the basic idea behind that but we can look deeper into the biological basis for their determination of what is not “right”. Biologically speaking we have found these “chemical imbalances” which are the reason for “popping pills” to get that “quick fix”. Now I believe in science. It is great that if the chemicals aren’t being transmitted properly we can just take a pill and it’ll get it “back on course.” But let me refute this on evolutionary grounds. To keep from going in too deep, let me simply state that for there to be change, it must be allowed to persist! The fact we try to control and maintain everything how we want it and how we deem “fit” is, frankly, absurd. Let us go back in time to Heidlbergensis(sp?). How many of these ‘cave men’ were having chemical imbalances? The brain through our history went through a LOT of changes and rewiring (our brain is actually smaller than neandertal’s but because of ‘wiring’ we are able to have associations of objects, hence we get cave paintings with homosapien).

So on that, let me return to my original premise that each individual is different. Just as George Carlin said “the kid who eats too many marbels doesn’t grow up to have kids of his own,” let me say that the person with screwed up wiring who gets depressed and kills themself doesn’t grow up to have kids of their own! That may sound cold but we can’t deny the natural order of things and the fact that within any group or species things are adapting under their own methods and change (evolution) is occuring on an on-going basis. The fact is data shows that depression and such problems are on a rise and it is passed on by heredity. If people are incapable of surviving then they die off.

Now, on that perspective let me also state I am one of these “depressive” people. I have screwed up wiring plus it was also my social conditioning for me to have been depressed (and going through the crap I did in high school didn’t help). However, as I have seen in myself as well as helped in others and have seen others notice as well is that the “chemical imbalance” is hardly an excuse for anything. Unless you have lost touch with reality or have some kind of mental retardation that prohibits one from being able to “reason” for lack of a better term, then they are going to be able to introspect, adapt, and control within themselves their depressive or whatever “problematic” urges. I can go in depth to use examples of the un-limiting aspects of several “diseases” but I already know I’m rambling enough

already touching on that evolutionary aspect let me move to a historical one to respond to the post some have made that “if you’ve seen them it is a disease.” Well, even in cases of schitzophrenia where the individual loses touch with reality, this has been a state that people have 1) sought to go after for religious reasons and 2) have been exalted as mystical experiences. To keep this short, let me just point out tribal shamans throughout history, when studied or observed by “lay man” we would say “they’re Fing nuts!” But to stay off the whole religious and shaman studies, these are very well organized and structured patterns and there’s even scientific data looking into shamanism. No, schitzos are not shamans, but are an example of people who are not in touch with reality. The main “problem” found in them is that they can’t function in our society because they can’t “reason” as we do in our catagorical sense percieved world, solely because they percieve things differently (of course we say our perceptions are best, but i’m not even going to argue that or am denying it). Just one more historical perspective though, look at the Oracles of Delphi who would go into bizarre trance states and wig out literally because they got high off of the toxic gas fumes that were coming out of the ground. They were said to talk to the gods. For all we know maybe they were! But the underlying fact is they lost touch with this reality and saw things different and were treated with great respect, not disgust.

So to recap, I have to say the effects, behavior, and individuals who we label as “personality disorderd” very well exist, but are they a disorder what should be of concern and I have to say no. We are individuals with our own personalities we’ve developed, through evolution, genetics, and how we socially and individual condition ourselves to adapt to whatever biology we have. The idea of the disturbed stems solely out of trying to find problems in what “doesn’t work” in our capitalistic “progress” and trying to correct the problems (thank you Skinner!). So if it isn’t obvious, I don’t like behavioral psychology Just to note, I don’t deny that in our society these people who have these “problems” for lack of a better term will have trouble trying to live in our society. It’s a dog eat dog world here and they’ll get eaten up or be a danger to others. I think clinical psychology is important but I think being based off of behavioral science is not the way to go (personality psychology is the other alternative).

Just my 2 cents … or this would probably be like 5 bucks worth

Wow something new after 20 yrs of computers…never did a discussion group before, but this topic is close to me, so I thought I’d come in.

I am 54- disabled due to personality disorder(s) and I have a handicapped child similarly.

This has caused unreal hardships I’ll spare you, but after loss of 50+ jobs (mainly in the space of 15 yrs) I went for council.

My ability to learn and grow, love and interact are severely impaired.

I still feel I have my very best at all times with the intent of seeking truths and kindness to all. I’m wired wrong I guess, and the meds seem to help. With tradeoffs.

Growing up abused didn’t help either, BUT YES these things are valid!

We are all dysfunctional, all of us aren’t normal so to speak. All of us have parental issues, all of us can use some meds of one type or another, and this exists as we age more so. Because we cannot carry the weight of our various whatever.

In order for something to be considered a disorder, it must fall withing four catagories: MAUD - maladaptive, atypical, unjustifiable, and dangerous.

In psychology, one’s characteristics must fall under ALL of these to be considered a disorder. Socially speaking, the problem lies in defining what is “normal” and therefore what is atypical or not normal. This problem is especially apparent when it comes to diagnosing someone with ADD or another such “disorder”. AS someone said earlier, most of these “disorders” can be cured with proper upbringing and discipline. There are exceptions of course, but for the most part, I agree that we tend to overreact and overdo it when it comes to treating people with medication, but there is no doubt in my mined that psychological disorders exist.

The term ‘personality disorder’ interests me as ive seen it misussed so often, and ive worked with people labelled with it as well as those suffering from mental illnesses. The two are infact very different, mental illnesses are recognised as being treatable because we have found medication that can measurably improve negative symptoms. We havent however been able to treat the ‘faulty personality’, not surprising given that there are so many manifestations of personality and the vast complexity in determining what it is that makes us who we are in the first place. People who have a personality disorder are untreatable in the medical sense because ‘negative personality’ isnt an illness, it cant be altered with medication, our personality is based on values, beliefs, attitudes. I believe personality disorder, rather than being a mental illness, is a term we have created for those people we consider to be detrimental to society through their behaviour. Rapists, pathological liers, attention seeking individuals, none of them have a treatable mental illness as such but they have a way of behaving that society finds unacceptable, and thus we have created a label to explain that there is something wrong with them. I feel quite strongly that we shouldnt get ‘disorders of the personality’ mixed up with treatable mental illnesses. In turn illnesses such as depression, schizophrenia, mania etc can be influenced by the personality but they are not a result of disordered personality.

Nicely put Lithium, oh and welcome.

I take meds daily to treat my acute paranoid schizophrenia, most of the time I function pretty well, but every now and then have a ‘wobble’.

I’ve never really thought about it before, but I suppose I would be offended if someone where to say to me I had a personality disorder rather than a mental Illness. Thinking about it, I think maybe it HAS been said that I have a personality disorder, but I have never really stopped to think what that implies.

Like mentioned above, personality disorder for me, conjours up Psycopaths, rapists and murderers and I don’t really want to be lumped in with them.

I think Hollywood and films in general are alot to blame for the common misconceptions of Schizophrenia and other mental Illnesses.
Phsyco the film, with Norman Bates springs to mind. Supposedly a schizophrenic personality, infact a split personality. Unfortunatly those uneducated seem to think they are one in the same.

I once went for a forestry job. Now by law as I understand it, I do not have to declare my Illness unless specifically asked (as far as jobs go).
But in this case I thought I would mention my Illness, it was one of the first jobs I went for after being stableised. Basically the job enetailed transporting wood from one place to another.

The interviewer, on being asked if it was a problem that I had Schizophrenia, looked visably taken aback and said, there shouldn’t be a problem as long as I didn’t go nuts and kill every one with a chain saw.

I would say any personality disorder I have is due to my bad childhood experiences rather than my Mental Illness.

In any case, personality disorder or mental Illness, they both scare the willys out of the average joe in the street.

–

Grateful for that awakening.

MentulZen.

That’s a nice hypothesis Lady Sphinx. Do you know the theory of positive desintragation of K. Dabrowski?

Try this link for more infomation; http://members.shaw.ca/positivedisintegration/gifted.htm. The thing I like about the theory of positive desintegration, is that it doesn’t look at mental ilnesses, as if they are ilnesses, but as signs of growth.

very interesting indeed. i really like this man’s philosophy of the mind in general because he deals with the whole “all crazy people are geniuses / all geniuses are crazy” by stating that their “craziness” isn’t craziness but rather symptoms of genius.
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well read schopenhauer then. How can a genius be a genius when all were doing is typing? God, the internet surrounds itself with brilliant terminology like “surfing,” “megabites” and all you do is sit and type. Woo how advanced of us.

Gotta say somethin about the psychotropics:

THey are not made to “cure” anything. No professionals really believe that poppin pills will cure anything. The idea is this:

First, a patient must establish a baseline idea of thier normal functioning.
Second, a patient must show evidence of a chemical imbalance
Third, psychotropics are meant to be givin with therapy, and discontinued when the balance is corrected through therapy and resolution.

Actually, sometimes they were though to be under the sway of evil demons and systematically tortured, under the hypothesis that pain makes the demon uncomfortable.

Also, we have heard of Electro-shock and lobotomies right? Just take a look at how those came about.

Geniuses are geniuses, disorder or no. But the two are niether dependant, nor exculsive.

Im a diagnosed paraniod, who, with the help of 2 yrs of therapy and psychotropics, no longer need any drugs to remain balanced.

The profiteers who are making money from each new idiosyncrasy to come along are what is driving today’s trend toward calling everything a ‘mental illness.’ Indeed, the road between identifying someone ‘high risk’ and then labeling them ‘ADD’ or ‘ADHD’ or any one of a host of another dozen different titles has fueled an entire establishment – one that hasn’t had access to such phenomenal amounts of money in the history of their field – that of ‘mental illness.’

Psychotherapy has fallen by the wayside entirely while ‘professionals’ in these fields concentrate their efforts entirely on prescribing a host of different medications – and it came as no surprise to many of us when they were challenged by the FDA to explain just how [and why] they withheld information from the FDA that indicated many of these drugs were contributing toward suicidal tendencies, particularly among young users!

The tide has only just begun to turn… stay tuned.

Yes, well put above…personality and behavioral disorders are two very different things. For a great example of a behavior disorder I suggest reading the biography of Howard Hughes. Until you find yourself washing your hands in the bathroom of a restaurant for hours while on a date, then perhaps you may doubt the validity of mental disorders. Certainly, doctors are over-prescribing and over-diagnosing these disorders; however, it does not mean that they do not exist. Hughes’ disorder (ocd) was not understood in his lifetime which is a shame.

the sad thing about personality disorders is that they are not cureable. someone with a personality disorder is usually diagnosed at an early age, it developes when you are about 4 or so and if you are in a family that is screwed up, you will alway have a personality disorder… drugs do nothing for the personality disorder, counseling on how to live with a personality disorder is the only treatment.

I think that, unless it is actually harming the person, a ‘personality disorder’ is actually a different type of personality. It is only called (in my opinion) a disorder because it is not the popular majority, or ‘normal’ personality. eople who are individuals can be said to have a ‘disorder’, but they are individuals. That in itself could be considered a disorder.

I always thought that personality disorders relate directly to a person being that person or not. So a transvestite, who likes to dress and behave like the other sex, I would say has a personality disorder or a person who actually goes for a sex change operation obviously has a personality disorder. But mental or just behavioural disorders don’t necessarily change your personality of who and what you are in essence, so how do people consider them as personality disorders? So, I would say that personality disorders do exist but are very rare and they are the cases of transvestites, etc.