Reputation

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

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Reputation

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:21 am

How many people spend enormous amounts of time energy and money preserving reputations ... individual, family, class, religion, philosophical school of thought and so on?

Some even pay the ultimate price ... martyrdom ... slow or instant. People like Socrates, Edith Stein, Jesus ...

Why?

We have been socialized ... programmed ... since early childhood to act in such a way.

Seems to me this propensity to preserve reputation is the leading cause of "Constipation of Consciousness".

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"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Reputation

Postby Silhouette » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:55 am


Here's an answer, if you haven't already seen it. Not sure how much I subscribe to it though.

The ultimate concern is too far beyond one's own life, and with principle, which I would say detracts from a concrete immersion in one's own life.
I care what people think of me insofar as it minimises any future nuisance in having to deal with them, but that's about it - I am fairly hedonistic and asocial.

But I understand those who are not and want their future interactions to be nourished and enriched - a reputation will sculpt an expectation from others, which will feed upon itself and raise the trust and validation even further. This helps you get what you want out of life to an even greater degree - for the social and/or business-minded folk. However this can also go in the other direction, which understandably causes concern over one's reputation going sour. And obviously there are those simply afraid that others will not think well or fairly of them because it sucks to lose and to have others hold relatively negative perceptions and expectations of you. They aren't trying to build anything, they are just trying to stop what they have being unbuilt/ruined.

Tywin's vision is no doubt a hypothetical result of a noble upbringing where you already have everything, and things to gain in life start becoming a bit more abstract and "great" - very Nietzschean: a master morality. Jesus was portrayed as having an agenda, knowing he'd only die corporeally and not completely. In actuality, he was probably just deluded. I imagine clergymen and women devote themselves to an ideal in a kind of veiled narcissism (not even known/admitted to their selves) combined with a fear of not living up to the standards of an entity whom they deem to be superior and in control of their destiny - they get to show off by not being regarded to be showing off, taking pride in their servitude. You can get pretty caught up in your principles, even if they aren't religious - simply because that's the way you want to be alive - even if that results in it ending.
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Re: Reputation

Postby Meno_ » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:25 am

Since involvement in an unveiling rests in further vesting of consequential narrative those who are afraid of.those consequences are not.worth anyone's time.of day , as where a sincerity of disclosure is concerned, otherwise they may as well ascribe their unintended revelations as hoax, or worse, delusions

That those whose inclination is to doubt the veracity of such narratives are as critical of them, are really merely critics of whom it could be said that they are rarely in agreement.
Last edited by Meno_ on Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reputation

Postby Meno_ » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:27 am

Meno_ wrote:Since involvement in an unveiling rests in further vesting of consequential narrative those who are afraid of.those consequences,are not.worth anyone's time.of day , as sincerity of disclosure is concerned, otherwise they may as well ascribe their unintended revelations as hoax, or worse, delusions

That those whose inclination is to doubt the veracity of such narratives are as critical of them, are really merely critics of whom it could be said that they are rarely in agreement.
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Re: Reputation

Postby Meno_ » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:20 am

I have , You can be sure, after, I did get confirmation that something strange was going on, gthat the code involved was of origin, of maybe Aremaic derivation, looked at op, and it did seem as if the suggestion was not of an auto suggestive origin, I say this, without any doubt as to my own self assessment , that this is an honest pronouncement.

I would not have been capable of a self deception of that magnitude, of that I am certain.

This is would have been, at any rate beyond my capacity, as may be ascertained by my prior narratives.

If the suggestion if inauthenticity is to be sustained, then I can only answer with as complete a wonder for that counter suggestion, which is as culpable as its negation. At that point, in reference to the forums theme involving reputation, the negation to that would be an inversion as well, that I would consider concerns over reputation to be equally a matter of indifference.
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Re: Reputation

Postby Meno_ » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:57 am

Meno_ wrote:I have , You can be sure, after, I did get confirmation that something strange was going on, that the code involved was of an origin, of maybe Aremaic derivation, looked at op, and it did seem as if the suggestion was not of an auto suggestive origi., that can be safely said, without any doubt as to self assessment , that this is an honest pronouncement.

It could not have been possible , to self deceive to that t extent of magnitude, of that I am certain.

This is would have been, at any rate beyond my capacity, as may be ascertained by my prior narratives.

If the suggestion of inauthenticity is to be sustained, then I
can only answer with as complete wonder for a counter suggestion, which is as culpable as its negation. At that point, in reference to the forums theme involving reputation is concerned , the negation to that would be an inversion as well, and it would become equally a matter of indifference.



For at that stage of doubt, reduced to that level of inquiry, there would actually be no difference.

In the words of Socrates, the search for who the authentic self is, may not yet have begun. Reputations were strictly judged upon the right appearances generated by the greatest sophistry.
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Re: Reputation

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:00 pm

Silhouette ... so much substance with so few words. :-k

I found the last words in the clip the most interesting. Strikes me that too many of us are procrastinators ... kicking the can forward ... reluctant to embrace the person we were born to be ... like Gib the reluctant saint. :-)

I need you to become the man you were always meant to be ... not next year ... not tomorrow ... now!


Meno ... ditto for your comments ... though as usual ... having difficulty deciphering your intentions.

Does your last statement point to my comment above?

In the words of Socrates, the search for who the authentic self is, may not yet have begun. Reputations were strictly judged upon the right appearances generated by the greatest sophistry.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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Re: Reputation

Postby Meno_ » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:40 pm

Sorry Pilgrim, the jest of it is the search for true identity, and the only known root of that consists in the ‘know thyself of Socrates. However, the saying is not ultimately resourced to him, it has Homeric, pre Homeric roots. The point being , that the rationale put on the Greek theatre:s actual performance is in that sense, pre rational, albeit mystic. Meaning differentiation of the performance could not be made on those premises to the public awareness of its litera meaning, and left as undifferentiated, and Tragic. That was the motive, hidden, sealed, or better yet, in your terminology.veiled.

Salah Abdel Sabour an Egyptian poet, founder of modern Arabic poetry comments on the Greek foundations being influenced by such roots ,as above.

Ref: 'Re reading Classics in East and West post colonial perspectives on the Tragic, Documents Jagang XxII 2004 NUMMER 4

The Reception of Homeric Hymn of Demeter in Romantic Heidelberg, J.H. Boss and the Eleusinian Documents,Andreas Schwab, by
Johan Heinrich Voss ,1816
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Re: Reputation

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:20 pm

Meno_ wrote:Sorry Pilgrim, the jest of it is the search for true identity, and the only known root of that consists in the ‘know thyself of Socrates. However, the saying is not ultimately resourced to him, it has Homeric, pre Homeric roots. The point being , that the rationale put on the Greek theatre:s actual performance is in that sense, pre rational, albeit mystic. Meaning differentiation of the performance could not be made on those premises to the public awareness of its litera meaning, and left as undifferentiated, and Tragic. That was the motive, hidden, sealed, or better yet, in your terminology.veiled.

Salah Abdel Sabour an Egyptian poet, founder of modern Arabic poetry comments on the Greek foundations being influenced by such roots ,as above.

Ref: 'Re reading Classics in East and West post colonial perspectives on the Tragic, Documents Jagang XxII 2004 NUMMER 4

The Reception of Homeric Hymn of Demeter in Romantic Heidelberg, J.H. Boss and the Eleusinian Documents,Andreas Schwab, by
Johan Heinrich Voss ,1816


Thanks for stooping down to my level Meno ... I think I get it now. :)

Is the message from Father Ron this morning essentially the same?

CATACLYSMS OF THE HEART
There are times when the world unravels. Who hasn’t had this feeling? “I’m falling apart! This is beyond me! My heart is broken! I feel betrayed by everything! Nothing makes sense any more! Life is upside down!”

Jesus had a cosmic image for this. In the gospels, he talks about how the world, as we experience it, will someday end: “The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give forth its light, stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.” When Jesus says this, he is not talking as much about cosmic cataclysms as of cataclysms of the heart. Sometimes our inner world is shaken, turned upside down; it gets dark in the middle of the day, there’s an earthquake in the heart, and we experience, in effect, the end of the world as we’ve known it.

But, Jesus assures us too, in this upheaval, one thing remains the same: the word of God, God’s promise of fidelity. That doesn’t get turned upside down and, in our disillusionment, we are given a chance to see what really is of substance, permanent, and worthy of our lives. Thus, ideally at least, when our trusted world is turned upside down we are given the chance to grow, to become less selfish, and to see reality more clearly.

Christian mystics call this “a dark night of the soul” and they write it up as if God was actively turning our world upside down and causing all this heartache deliberately to purge and cleanse us.

John of the Cross, the great Spanish mystic, puts it this way: God gives us seasons of fervour and then takes them away. In our seasons of fervour, God gives us consolation, pleasure, and security (sometimes with considerable passion and intensity) inside our relationships, prayer, and work. As a gift from God this is meant to be enjoyed. But, John tells us, God will, at a certain point, take away the pleasure and consolation and we will experience a certain dark night, namely, where we once felt fire, passion, consolation, and security, we will now feel dryness, boredom, disillusion, and insecurity. For John of the Cross, all honeymoons eventually end.

Why? Why would God do this? Why can’t a honeymoon last forever?

Because eventually, though not initially, it blocks us from seeing straight. Initially all those wonderful feelings we feel when we first fall in love, when we first begin to pray deeply, and when we first begin to find our legs in the world, are part of God’s plan and God’s lure. The passion and consolation we feel help lead us out of ourselves, beyond fear and selfishness. But, eventually, the good feelings themselves become the problem because we get hung-up on them rather than on what’s behind them.

Honeymoons are wonderful, but, on a honeymoon, generally we are more in love with being in love and all the wonderful energy this creates than we are in love with the person behind all those feelings. The same is true for faith and prayer. When we first begin to pray seriously, we generally are more in love with the experience of praying and what it’s doing for us than we are in love with God. On any honeymoon, no matter how intense and pure the feelings seem, those feelings are still very much about ourselves and not about the person we think we love. That is why, sadly, many a warm, passionate honeymoon eventually turns into a cold, passionless relationship.

Until we are purified, and we are purified precisely through dark nights of disillusionment, we are too much seeking ourselves in love and in everything else. Therese of Lisieux used to warn: “Be careful not to seek yourself in love, you’ll end up with a broken heart that way!” We’d have less heartaches if we understood that. As well, before we’re purified, most of the tears we shed, no matter how real the pain or loss, say more about us than they say about the person or situation we are supposedly mourning.

In all this, there’s both bad news and good news: The bad news is that everything we feel as precious will someday be taken from us. Everything gets crucified, including every feeling of warmth and security we have. But the good news is that it will all be given back again, more deeply, more purely, and even more passionately in terms of feeling.

What dark nights of the soul, cataclysms of the heart, do is to take away everything that feels like solid earth so that we end up in a free-fall, unable to grab on to anything that once supported us. But, in falling, we also get closer to bedrock, to God, to reality, to truth, to each other, beyond illusions, beyond selfishness, and beyond manipulative love masquerading as something else. Clarity eyesight comes after disillusionment, purity of heart comes after a certain kind of heartache, and real love comes after the honeymoon.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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Re: Reputation

Postby Meno_ » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:31 pm

Yes and its a miracle that IT can mean the same
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Re: Reputation

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:50 am

Silhouette ... in my earlier post I mentioned "so much substance with so few words". At the moment the words ... astute ... insightful ... a mark of genius... come to mind.

Let me address your first statement ... beyond your video clip comment.

[b]
The ultimate concern is too far beyond one's own life, and with principle, which I would say detracts from a concrete immersion in one's own life.
[/b

1) Framed within the brevity of human life as we know it in this physical realm ... absolutely agree.

2) Framed within the notion of reincarnation ... not so much. Much of modern science traces it's roots to individuals with brilliant imagination and deduction skills. These individuals took what science was known at the time and attempted to figure out some of the unknown stuff. As often happened, after a period of time ... in some cases long after the death of the original image(ination) (Da Vinci) the imagined science manifested itself as true science in our physical realm.

Why shouldn't the notion of reincarnation follow the same pattern?

Sanjay has cited some examples of what is understood by many to be a manifestation of reincarnation. If all such examples across time and space were known they would likely fill a large library.

The human body is uniquely configured to facilitate the notion of reincarnation. How so?

a) Reincarnation is generally defined as a soul coming and going within our physical reality. The human body as a vessel of choice for it's sojourns in our physical reality is a perfect fit. Human life span is short and premature death is frequent ... easy for the soul to "go".

b) A propagation process is necessary for a soul to return ... on demand. While I don't expect souls participate in the physical aspect(s) of proaogation I do believe souls influence the mating process. ergo ... I chose my mom and dad and helped them to choose each other as a mating pair. In this way I could choose the human characteristics I required to complete my tasks in this particular reincarnation.

Thoughts?
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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