The Depths of Narcissus

Elevate form over function to get at less easily articulable truths.

The Depths of Narcissus

Postby Meno_ » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:00 pm

A search....

Premise: you do not play dice with Salomon's judgement

Persians & Jews , zarathustra & Christ



All flow :


Dr. Faustus does it again.
Evil cannot remember redemption, as an act of pure reactive consciousness,
It is too overly focused on opposing forces.

Solomon knew: You can not divide and conquer.
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Re: The Depths of Narcissus

Postby Meno_ » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:27 pm

Actually , it was Julius Caesar, and something he should have learned from Solomon
Last edited by Meno_ on Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Depths of Narcissus

Postby Meno_ » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:56 pm

Augustus, was the one who's emissary was Pontius Pilatus.
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Re: The Depths of Narcissus

Postby Meno_ » Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:03 am

wandered lonely as a Cloud (Daffodils)

   

by William Wordsworth





I WANDERED LONELY AS A CLOUD (DAFFODILS): TEXT OF THE POEM

 

 



I wandered lonely as a Cloud
That floats on high o'er vales and Hills,
When all at once I saw a crowd,
A host, of golden Daffodils;
Beside the Lake, beneath the trees,
Fluttering and dancing in the breeze.

Continuous as the stars that shine
And twinkle on the milky way,
They stretched in never-ending line
Along the margin of a bay:
Ten thousand saw I at a glance,
Tossing their heads in sprightly dance.

The waves beside them danced; but they
Out-did the sparkling waves in glee:
A Poet could not but be gay,
In such a jocund company:
I gazed--and gazed--but little thought
What wealth the show to me had brought:

For oft, when on my couch I lie
In vacant or in pensive mood,
They flash upon that inward eye
Which is the bliss of solitude;
And then my heart with pleasure fills,
And dances with the Daffodils.

 

 





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Re: The Depths of Narcissus

Postby MagsJ » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:30 pm


Description

Mythology

In Greek mythology, Narcissus was a hunter from Thespiae in Boeotia who was known for his beauty. According to Tzetzes, he was a Laconian hunter who loved everything beautiful. Narcissus was proud, in that he disdained those who loved him, causing some to commit suicide to prove their devotion to his striking beauty.
Wikipedia”

:|
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Re: The Depths of Narcissus

Postby Meno_ » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:04 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Description

Mythology

In Greek mythology, Narcissus was a hunter from Thespiae in Boeotia who was known for his beauty. According to Tzetzes, he was a Laconian hunter who loved everything beautiful. Narcissus was proud, in that he disdained those who loved him, causing some to commit suicide to prove their devotion to his striking beauty.
Wikipedia”

:|



In the age proceeding the anger, and the disdain of gods, beauty was the sign of an unfathomable wisdom. That was postscripted, by such forlorn thinkers Kierkegaard, who placed aesthetics second only to the gods.

When Narcissus fell in love with his own image, he thought it was some figure , of god-like being, not his own reflection.

His perception and his conscious awareness did not meet, except at cross purposes, or object ives. The pool of water reflecting his visage, indicated a depth which was more.profound , then we can ascribe to it today. Falling deeply in love, therefore , lacked the shallowness, that only a divine authored reality could ascribe to. Plato seconded that motion, and current levels of romantic disengagement are.proof and parcel of that disillusionment.

Love needs an illusive mirror, that reflects childhood wonder at the stirrings of the naturally evolved aspiration that does not exempt human beings from animals.

Guilt is not sourced from losing the road less traveled, but the letting go of these aspirations. God is the highest aspiration possible .
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Re: The Depths of Narcissus

Postby Meno_ » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:05 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Description

Mythology

In Greek mythology, Narcissus was a hunter from Thespiae in Boeotia who was known for his beauty. According to Tzetzes, he was a Laconian hunter who loved everything beautiful. Narcissus was proud, in that he disdained those who loved him, causing some to commit suicide to prove their devotion to his striking beauty.
Wikipedia”

:|




But why?


Here is an interesting idea that equivocate Nietzche, Frankenstein(Mary Shelley) & Lacan.



"This thesis examines the Narcissus theme and narcissism in the literature of the
nineteenth century, focusing on the theme as it is reflected in Mary Shelley’s
Frankenstein and Nietzsche’s Zur Genealogie der Moral, especially the dramatic shift in
perspective towards narcissism reflected in these two works. Historical and cultural
changes over the course of the nineteenth century that may have led to this reversal are
discussed, and it is suggested that the earlier negative view of narcissism is bound with a
theological concept of the “self” that is no longer compatible with the understanding of
humanity’s radically animal nature. A positive view of narcissism in Nietzsche's writing
may reflect a vacuum in the traditional understanding of the “self” that demands “self-
creation.” Narcissistic expression may also represent a liberation from the superstitious
awe surrounding the former, more theological concept of the “self” and from the moral
constraints of the theology from which this derived. Analysis of the Narcissus theme,
beginning with Ovid's version of the tale in the Metamorphoses then moving into the
nineteenth-century works, reveals common strands in all the depictions of narcissism
discussed. The analysis concludes that while Nietzsche assumes a positive stance
towards a narcissistic pose, the self-idealization reflected in his work is as illusory as the
negatively reflected narcissism of the earlier versions, and that below the surface of
Nietzsche's jubilant tone the philosophical voice of his work seems as haunted by the
idealized self-image he has created as the hero of Shelley's novel "



I will preference this citation later, but here is the sub stance of the underlying illusion, as I got to see and understand it:


Narcissus did not know, the reflection, the mirroring as thought, he only understood an image as inside it, below the level of the image, within the image somehow an internalized, sourced effort to build an objective criteria for reality
Reflection. as commonly understood as thought was not merely an image qua illusion but became some thing, as someone other.
It was not mirrored as thought, but illusion. Refelection did not =thought at that time, it was below, and above his awareness.
Further, him being an object of self love without knowing it was, indicated the hidden homosexuality in primal narcissism, a stage every boy goes through in that self image. Self concept constructs that new form of knowledge in various constructs and stages within the images of self.
The reflection as image becomes
in Ovid, for instance.
This really is pure Freud.

But the structural workings out are more involved, and it would be fun to delve into it , even coming to grips within far broader contexts, as in relational linking to the supposed personality disorder gaping now in Trumpism, where social discourse has already colluded it with the personal childish politocal-psychological underpinnings.
Szasz in a way legitimized the notion of the idea that in am ok-you're ok type of preception, the question relating to control and determinative.elements, as it is beginning linkages that have resulted in this emperor wears no clothes analogy to the allegory.


What does it take for narcissism to break it's own illusion of literal objectivity? It is the cave, the cave, the primal cave of the first Lacian mirror's defensive gesture, to acknowledge that below that, there is only the beyond, the beyond between distinguishing any form of division between the good and the bad, & without the automatic generation of an ugly , self possession, a possession so intricately meshed, so as to understand possession of the self by one that can no longer be excorcised.

That is what the Faustian riddle represents, which even the Evil can not defeat.
It is a self trickery, that one understands, that gives absolute guarantee against that universal power, no ONE can defeat. No one!

The modus operandi is the joke, the Joker, the clown, and the fool. It literally glares out of The Possessed, that shook the Russian Empire to it's foundations, the slaves revolt.
That is, what undermines the dejure symptoms of the lack of foundations, de facto; abracadabra, .......
The crime that not only goes unnoticed, but remains as viable as it was before the curative that presupposes Decartes through Hegel and Kant, through Engels and Marx.

Little do they know of the black soul of serfs, and the 100 year war fought for it.
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Re: The Depths of Narcissus

Postby MagsJ » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:37 pm

Narcissism can be used as a positive tool for self-renewal,
rather than always being viewed as a selfish act,
which is how the advantageous prefer it to be viewed,
to suit their need to take advantage of the other.


From Wikipedia:

Healthy narcissism is the characteristic of possessing realistic self-esteem without being cut off from a shared emotional life, as the unhealthy narcissist tends to be.[1]:37

The concept of healthy narcissism developed slowly out of the psychoanalytic tradition, and became popular in the late twentieth century.

Solan's healthy narcissism Ronnie Solan uses the metaphor of narcissism as an emotional-immune system for safeguarding the familiarity and the well-being of the individual against invasion by foreign sensations (1998) and small differences (Freud 1929–1930).
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: The Depths of Narcissus

Postby promethean75 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:18 pm

See but even that last guy's interpretation of narcissism is still tainted with this idea that a narcissist must be defending himself from some kind of external threat or personal inadequacy. Notice he said 'safeguarding'? He wants to keep with that spirit of resentment that has characterized modern psychology for centuries and suggest that the narcissist isn't really in confidence with himself... that there is really some subterranean insecurity and doubt in him.

Lemme tell ya, the healthy narcissist is none of this, and is impervious to all this envious criticism if his perceived sense of greatness. Believe it or not, there are some narcissists who really are the genuine article... who really are the genuine badass.
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Re: The Depths of Narcissus

Postby MagsJ » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:44 pm

promethean75 wrote:See but even that last guy's interpretation of narcissism is still tainted with this idea that a narcissist must be defending himself from some kind of external threat or personal inadequacy. Notice he said 'safeguarding'? He wants to keep with that spirit of resentment that has characterized modern psychology for centuries and suggest that the narcissist isn't really in confidence with himself... that there is really some subterranean insecurity and doubt in him.

..and that is the issue I have with how narcissism is viewed by many in the 21st Century and even prior.. the trait has many positive and helpful uses, but the less-capable do not want this to be so, and so tarnish the trait as bad, and so those with the trait will also be seen as bad.. rendering narcissism negative and unhelpful.

Lemme tell ya, the healthy narcissist is none of this, and is impervious to all this envious criticism if his perceived sense of greatness. Believe it or not, there are some narcissists who really are the genuine article... who really are the genuine badass.

Do tell..

Any hint of narcissism, arrogance, confidence, capability etc., are all seen as negative.. a case of dampening the spirit, to let the lesser spirit shine.. a convenient displacement and shift of power, to suit an other’s agenda to rise above the risen. Don’t get me started Promethean!
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
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Re: The Depths of Narcissus

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:22 pm

promethean75 wrote:
He wants to keep with that spirit of resentment that has characterized modern psychology for centuries and suggest that the narcissist isnt really in
confidence with himself ... that there is really some subterranean insecurity and doubt in him

Of course there is because anyone obsessed with external appearance is obviously insecure to a very high degree
But the real insecurity will be a psychological one rather than a physical one and will be deep within their psyche

The obsession with external self is probably a way of guaranteeing that no cracks show up on the outside where anyone can see them
While the internal ones even though they are more deep will be hidden more effectively because fewer will know of their existence

The ideal however should be to confront those demons and to get better rather than just putting on a brave face all of the time
The abyss does not cease to exist simply because one closes their eyes when looking into it as it has to be confronted eventually
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: The Depths of Narcissus

Postby Meno_ » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:45 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
promethean75 wrote:
He wants to keep with that spirit of resentment that has characterized modern psychology for centuries and suggest that the narcissist isnt really in
confidence with himself ... that there is really some subterranean insecurity and doubt in him

Of course there is because anyone obsessed with external appearance is obviously insecure to a very high degree
But the real insecurity will be a psychological one rather than a physical one and will be deep within their psyche

The obsession with external self is probably a way of guaranteeing that no cracks show up on the outside where anyone can see them
While the internal ones even though they are more deep will be hidden more effectively because fewer will know of their existence

The ideal however should be to confront those demons and to get better rather than just putting on a brave face all of the time
The abyss does not cease to exist simply because one closes their eyes when looking into it as it has to be confronted eventually



The problem with that is, that it's becoming systemic, the process has evolved since the literal Greek abyss through the nihilized version of existential gaps of nothingness and FDR's notion that there is no thing to be feared except fear it's self, could damn up an unheard pressure of impressive collusion, for lack of a better word.
The splits bear witness to the uneven flow of a gestalt, and in my humble opinion, the analysis of mind through failure has been a defensive gesture, apparently primarily psychological, but where was psychology, what was it, before Socrates could allude to his paradoxical MENO, at least begging quantified pre-eminence?

And it is not for the primacy of the evolving brain mind that such is a necessary process , a -priori, but the a-futilety that such diversion should, but can not be realized.
At least to the point by which, the simulated can not be distinguished from the bad added real thing.
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