Interjunction.

Elevate form over function to get at less easily articulable truths.

Interjunction.

Postby Sauwelios » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:49 am

Science the rod that severs,
Philosophy savouring love.

"Art is the Tree of Life. Science is the Tree of Death." (Blake, "Laocoön".)

Yet there's only one Tree. The Tree of Knowledge (Daäth) of Good and Evil is the Tree seen as distinguishing the two.

"A fool sees not the same tree that[!] a wise man sees." (Blake, "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell".)

The Tree of Life is the Tree seen as synthesizing and sublating the two. A cross-section on the same high plane.

Sex, cleavage, excetera. Star-crossing.

Science the rod that severs,
Philosophy savouring love.

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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Jakob » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:14 pm

Very nice.
Did you have any thoughts on the difference between ascending and descending the tree?
Id intuitively couple descending to philosophy and ascending to science; descending as commending at the axioms of experienced existence (and escaping solipsism through genius of the heart) and ascending as commencing in ignorance of the laws of discernment set by ones entity (self valuing) and focussing entirely on the empirical "outside world".

As one ascends the tree of science, one runs into paradoxes or rather real contradictions of terms, as indeed science is now stuck therein.
It has to "cross the abyss" perhaps, or perhaps even still first attain to Tipharet, to understand itself, to look at itself with the consistency it prides itself on.

Of course Ive resolved this in my terms, but it still will be resolved in many other terms. Your terms are powerful.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Meno_ » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:07 pm

Love is a full quantum state
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Sauwelios » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:23 pm

What you say makes sense. Thus Crowley, as you know, writes:

"[B]elow the Abyss, contradiction is division; but above the Abyss, contradiction is Unity." (The Vision and the Voice, 5th Aethyr.)

Science, then, is below the Abyss. It is (etymologically) division.

If it's a question of up or down, then, it must go up. It can't go further down than Malkuth.

If it gets high enough, it becomes philosophy, the way I understand it. Perhaps I was just a scholar after all before I understood it.

The most problematic scientists are then "Black Brothers"--those who reach the Abyss but remain in it. I need to reflect on that more, though.

The term "science", or at least "scientist", in the modern sense, was only coined in 1833. Philosophy's esotericism was forgotten at the end of the 18th century.

Before that, going back as far as Homer, science and philosophy were one, at least esoterically. The Heraclitean sense of "Logos" was always at least in the background, the back of philosophers' minds.

In the human body, Da'at is located in the throat as you know. I now see it as the point of connection and division. Compare the synonyms "golden ratio" and "golden section" (from secare, "to cut"). The Word, the Reason.

Blake says that "in Milton, [...] the Son [is] a Ratio of the five senses" (MHH). The Son is Christ, the Logos, but he's only a Ratio, the Father only "Destiny", if the Holy-ghost, the Spirit, is "Vacuum". Desire, the Will, is required to experience the whole that is more than the sum of its parts.

Imagination (Urthona, whom Blake opposed to Urizen) is the sixth sense that is the ethereal quintessence of the five--the oil that lubricates their interaction. Tiphareth is of course the Christ-center--though I identified with Blake's "Satan in His Original Glory" when I was there during my last mushroom--as distinct from truffle--trip.

"[A]ll the symbols are interchangeable, for each one containeth in itself its own opposite." (Crowley, ibid.)
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Sauwelios » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:59 am

I thought a bit more about my last mushroom trip while I was jogging. So I was in Tiphareth, identifying with Lucifer, but then I went up and got to Daäth, or at least my Adam's apple. I then distinctly felt that I'd die if I stayed there much longer. I then went up to Kether, or the Sahasrara chakra (the crown of my head), which I beheld from below as a literal _source_ of light, flowing down through me. This was in the Spring of 2003, I've told you this before.

Now even back then, I was aware Lucifer corresponds to Prometheus. I was under the impression the Adam's apple houses one of the "psychedelic" glands like the pineal gland, but I may have been mistaken. In any case, and if the term "Adam's apple" is even meaningful, I'd now retroactively interpret it as a chunk of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge that got stuck in the male's throat. This would then be a representation of not being able to let go. It was my being able to let go of the light that flowed down, and became darker (heavier, more "material"?) in the process, that allowed me to keep focusing on the source of light. By the way, what I saw in "Daäth" was rather the "darkness visible" from Paradise Lost: dark colours, and mostly deep black, if that makes sense. This got more intense every time I swallowed, which I did a lot.

Now Nietzsche suggests about Prometheus--of whom he says he stole the _light_, not fire--that his victim and punisher Zeus, and thereby the light itself, was only a figment of his imagination. And of course what I saw then was a hallucination. It was really a reflection of my "desire" or need. (Note by the way that the name Zeus is cognate with "day", as in "daylight".) https://www.facebook.com/Sauwelios/posts/1441714722548464?pnref=story
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Sauwelios » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:25 am

Sauwelios wrote:It was really a reflection of my "desire" or need. (Note by the way that the name Zeus is cognate with "day", as in "daylight".)


I was aware that "need" might be taken in Satyr's sense--if not intended, then at least so that the irony undercuts my earlier identification of "Desire, the Will". (I there meant to suggest (the feeling of) _free will_, in contrast with "Destiny", determinism, by the way.) The Nietzschean will is of course an abundance, not a lack, or at least an abundance as well as a lack (cf. Socrates' account of Eros in Plato's Symposium). And yet...

If the light, the abundance of light (the Boundless Light, Ayn Soph Aur?) is a figment of the imagination, does that mean there is just lack? But "midnight is also midday,--

"Pain is also a pleasure, curse is also a blessing, night is also a sun,--go away or you learn: a wise man is also a fool." (Zarathustra, "The Nightwanderers' Song", section 10.)

If the light is a figment, it's not really there, there's really a void there. But it's the virtual image of the darkness, the deep blackness. The blackness, then, is itself the abundance. Pro-metheus pro-jects his own abundance into the void.

But what about beauty? Beauty is still in the right proportion. "The grand style arises where beauty carries off the victory over monstrosity." What's ugly is the monstrosity, the lack of healthy limits, like a cancer overgrowing and outgrowing its host. Baroque, Hellenism--that's how it starts.

Yet even that can still be beautiful within its context--if there's not _too much_ cancer and ugliness in the greater whole. The right amount--the golden mean. Crowley's Little Essay on Sorrow comes to mind.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Jakob » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:42 pm

Sauwelios wrote:What you say makes sense. Thus Crowley, as you know, writes:

"[B]elow the Abyss, contradiction is division; but above the Abyss, contradiction is Unity." (The Vision and the Voice, 5th Aethyr.)

Hence your point of cleavage was well taken, I found its coldness of style impressive, suggesting deep insight.

Science, then, is below the Abyss. It is (etymologically) division.

If it's a question of up or down, then, it must go up. It can't go further down than Malkuth.

If it gets high enough, it becomes philosophy, the way I understand it. Perhaps I was just a scholar after all before I understood it.

I agree, When it learns to behold itself, it has risen high enough. I think that is in the path between Geburah and Chesed, "Strength", the tamed (not imprisoned or castrated) lion.
The lion here possibly as that Machiavellian will to dominate nature, Nietzsche as the woman taming that lion. Ah yes, of course - preventing it from devouring itself. Thus preserving it for the Child stage - which would be crossing the abyss.

Daath would be knowledge of knowledge - the ability to contextualize a piece of knowledge, see it "for what its worth".

The most problematic scientists are then "Black Brothers"--those who reach the Abyss but remain in it. I need to reflect on that more, though.

These may be simply persons not able to take on the responsibility of being the grond to their own being -
persons having risen enough to be Abe to see that necessity and yet too unhealthy to endure it.

The term "science", or at least "scientist", in the modern sense, was only coined in 1833. Philosophy's esotericism was forgotten at the end of the 18th century.

I wasn't aware of that anyway. That in itself is plenty of material for a book.

Before that, going back as far as Homer, science and philosophy were one, at least esoterically. The Heraclitean sense of "Logos" was always at least in the background, the back of philosophers' minds.

In the human body, Da'at is located in the throat as you know. I now see it as the point of connection and division. Compare the synonyms "golden ratio" and "golden section" (from secare, "to cut"). The Word, the Reason.

Blake says that "in Milton, [...] the Son [is] a Ratio of the five senses" (MHH). The Son is Christ, the Logos, but he's only a Ratio, the Father only "Destiny", if the Holy-ghost, the Spirit, is "Vacuum". Desire, the Will, is required to experience the whole that is more than the sum of its parts.

Yes, Tipharet can only understood in terms of the paths leading from and to it. Thats what Iv discovered in my lecture series so far.

Imagination (Urthona, whom Blake opposed to Urizen) is the sixth sense that is the ethereal quintessence of the five--the oil that lubricates their interaction. Tiphareth is of course the Christ-center--though I identified with Blake's "Satan in His Original Glory" when I was there during my last mushroom--as distinct from truffle--trip.

I suddenly think Daath and Tipharet are one.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Jakob » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:43 pm

Meno_ wrote:Love is a full quantum state

Ohhh how deep.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Meno_ » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:54 pm

Well, some of the argument proposed was apparent in my practice forum ,fallen below a show, and the up and down motive can be inverted pyramid like, where the direction has not.been changed.,except it's signification. If you've been down enough, up seems down , that's all.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Meno_ » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:02 pm

The narratives of this forum and Your representation of it are admittedly well done, and their demonic references in people other than Crowley, support the aura.of equivocation between the two directions of the moral compass.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Sauwelios » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:45 pm

Jakob wrote:
Sauwelios wrote:Imagination (Urthona, whom Blake opposed to Urizen) is the sixth sense that is the ethereal quintessence of the five--the oil that lubricates their interaction. Tiphareth is of course the Christ-center--though I identified with Blake's "Satan in His Original Glory" when I was there during my last mushroom--as distinct from truffle--trip.

I suddenly think Daath and Tipharet are one.


Yes! That's where my train of thought led me, but it seemed wrong for me to say it explicitly, so I just kind of implied it with that last quote. Good to hear you say it explicitly!


Before that, going back as far as Homer, science and philosophy were one, at least esoterically. The Heraclitean sense of "Logos" was always at least in the background, the back of philosophers' minds.

In the human body, Da'at is located in the throat as you know. I now see it as the point of connection and division. Compare the synonyms "golden ratio" and "golden section" (from secare, "to cut"). The Word, the Reason.

Blake says that "in Milton, [...] the Son [is] a Ratio of the five senses" (MHH). The Son is Christ, the Logos, but he's only a Ratio, the Father only "Destiny", if the Holy-ghost, the Spirit, is "Vacuum". Desire, the Will, is required to experience the whole that is more than the sum of its parts.

Yes, Tipharet can only understood in terms of the paths leading from and to it. Thats what Iv discovered in my lecture series so far.


I should really continue watching your video on the paths then. I'd started to, but had other worthships as well, and didn't have a "hook" like Tiphareth. But now I do!


The most problematic scientists are then "Black Brothers"--those who reach the Abyss but remain in it. I need to reflect on that more, though.

These may be simply persons not able to take on the responsibility of being the grond to their own being -
persons having risen enough to be Abe to see that necessity and yet too unhealthy to endure it.


And yet they've made it all the way to Chesed, and beyond. Crowley's "One Star in Sight" (https://hermetic.com/crowley/book-4/app2) now suggests to me that I've only just arrived at that point.

"The Adept must prepare and publish a thesis setting forth His knowledge of the Universe, and his proposals for its welfare and progress. He will thus be known as the leader of a school of thought."

You are of course already known as such a leader. I have long prepared for being one--what with my whole teaching of the Ages (Aeons, to speak with Crowley), though I got much of that from Strauss et al. Things may only have really started to come together for me with my "Oedipal" insight...

"To attain the Grade of Magister Templi, he must perform two tasks; the emancipation from thought by putting each idea against its opposite, and refusing to prefer either; and the consecration of himself as a pure vehicle for the influence of the order to which he aspires."

As for the first task: I may also have long been above the Abyss! What matters is that things now come together, and go apart, at Daäth.

"He must then decide upon the critical adventure of our Order; the absolute abandonment of himself and his attainments. He cannot remain indefinitely an Exempt Adept; he is pushed onward by the irresistible momentum that he has generated.
Should he fail, by will or weakness, to make his self-annihilation absolute, he is none the less thrust forth into the Abyss; but instead of being received and reconstructed in the Third Order, as a Babe in the womb of our Lady BABALON, under the Night of Pan, to grow up to be Himself wholly and truly as He was not previously, he remains in the Abyss, secreting his elements round his Ego as if isolated from the Universe, and becomes what is called a 'Black Brother'. Such a being is gradually disintegrated from lack of nourishment and the slow but certain action of the attraction of the rest of the Universe, despite efforts to insulate and protect himself, and to aggrandise himself by predatory practices. He may indeed prosper for a while, but in the end he must perish, especially when with a new Aeon a new word is proclaimed which he cannot and will not hear, so that he is handicapped by trying to use an obsolete method of Magick, like a man with a boomerang in a battle where every one else has a rifle."

This is ironic, as the old Aeon, as I understand it, is precisely the Aeon of the rifle--of mechanical, Machiavellian weaponry.


Science, then, is below the Abyss. It is (etymologically) division.

If it's a question of up or down, then, it must go up. It can't go further down than Malkuth.

If it gets high enough, it becomes philosophy, the way I understand it. Perhaps I was just a scholar after all before I understood it.

I agree, When it learns to behold itself, it has risen high enough. I think that is in the path between Geburah and Chesed, "Strength", the tamed (not imprisoned or castrated) lion.
The lion here possibly as that Machiavellian will to dominate nature, Nietzsche as the woman taming that lion. Ah yes, of course - preventing it from devouring itself. Thus preserving it for the Child stage - which would be crossing the abyss.


Yes, that makes perfect sense.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Sauwelios » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:23 am

Sauwelios wrote:Science [...] can't go further down than Malkuth.


What about the Qlippoth, though?

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Not sure if the Qlippoth should be thought of like this, though. If not, forget about them for now.

What I mean is: if Qabalah's "Tree of Life" is a tree, where are its roots?

"In the Bhagavat Gita, Krishna said, 'There is a banyan tree which has its roots upward and its branches down, and the Vedic hymns are its leaves. One who knows this tree is the knower of the Vedas.' (Bg 15.1) Here the material world is described as a tree whose roots are upwards and branches are below. We have experience of a tree whose roots are upward: if one stands on the bank of a river or any reservoir of water, he can see that the trees reflected in the water are upside down. The branches go downward and the roots upward. Similarly, this material world is a reflection of the spiritual world. The material world is but a shadow of reality. In the shadow there is no reality or substantiality, but from the shadow we can understand that there is substance and reality." ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banyan#Religion_and_mythology[/url)

I've read that the Ethical Triangle is a reflection of the Supernal Triangle, and as such less real, and that the Astral Triangle is in turn a reflection of the Ethical Triangle. I can rhyme that with Nietzsche's early metaphysics: the Supernal Triangle represents the Primordial One, the Ethical Triangle represents the world as we know it while awake and sober, and the Astral Triangle represents our dreamworlds, in the full sense of "dream". Or, more precisely, the Ethical Triangle represents the sensual world, whereas the Astral Triangle represents the world of the spirit or mind.

Odin of course hung suspended, upside down, from a tree (probably Yggdrasil). He gave one eye, which I take to mean he transcended his two eyes into his one "third eye".

"I know that I hung on a windy tree
nine long nights,
wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin,
myself to myself,
on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run."
(Hávamál, stanza 137.)

The spear I see of course as a staff, and hence a symbol of the opened third eye.

Anyway, the purpose of this post was to determine how Daäth and Tiphareth can be one. But I don't even know anymore how my train of thought led me to that conclusion... How do _you_ think it would work?
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Meno_ » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:18 am

It scares me that I pretty much came to the same conclusion without having done much reading in Crowley or the Temple Orientalis. Excepting the thought that psychic ability increases with such perhaps it can be called an inner knowledge.


Regarding science feeding into the tree, sustaining its
roots and reversely, at that point maybe the levels
converge
That is probably the symbolism behind the holy spirit forming from the separation and the final rejoining of
the father and the son




Blavatsky's The Secret Doctrine is probably a good start.

Just a note of interest in the subject, and possible study, while following this thread.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:35 pm

Sauwelios wrote:
Jakob wrote:
Sauwelios wrote:Imagination (Urthona, whom Blake opposed to Urizen) is the sixth sense that is the ethereal quintessence of the five--the oil that lubricates their interaction. Tiphareth is of course the Christ-center--though I identified with Blake's "Satan in His Original Glory" when I was there during my last mushroom--as distinct from truffle--trip.

I suddenly think Daath and Tipharet are one.


Yes! That's where my train of thought led me, but it seemed wrong for me to say it explicitly, so I just kind of implied it with that last quote. Good to hear you say it explicitly!

Thats remarkable, the unity suddenly appeared to me very completely in shape and coherence. As if it had always been there, which is of course the case - for I did understand Daath, and thought I did not understand Tipharet- because I was not looking darkly enough. Yeah, Daath as a reflection of Tipharet on itself, on its "doom" its fate or destiny... its relationship with the logos of the Aeon.
its rebellion to those, necessary to give birth to a specific world.... so Daath is the highest conscience of Tipharet. And thus also as a counterpart, the most "evil", wicked consciousness.

Yes, Tipharet can only understood in terms of the paths leading from and to it. Thats what Iv discovered in my lecture series so far.


I should really continue watching your video on the paths then. I'd started to, but had other worthships as well, and didn't have a "hook" like Tiphareth. But now I do!

Great. I will be looking forward to your feedback.
Ill have good use for it in that ontluikend heersen...

The most problematic scientists are then "Black Brothers"--those who reach the Abyss but remain in it. I need to reflect on that more, though.

These may be simply persons not able to take on the responsibility of being the grond to their own being -
persons having risen enough to be Abe to see that necessity and yet too unhealthy to endure it.


And yet they've made it all the way to Chesed, and beyond. Crowley's "One Star in Sight" (https://hermetic.com/crowley/book-4/app2) now suggests to me that I've only just arrived at that point.

Whereas I have no doubt that you have been the lighting path downward very frequently, I also find it reasonable to assume you've now arrived at Chesed, as it is said that it is very dangerous to get there too early, as when arriving in Chesed, one must have acquired all the momentum to immediately face the abyss. I think you may then have forced yourself to halt at Geburah, and gone back and forth between Geburah, Hod and Tipharet - the paths of the Hanged Man (Othinn during those 9 days and nights), the Devil and Justice, which could be seen as Law. The card from Tipharet to Chesed is the Hermit - completing ones retreat, Zarathustra coming down the mountain, could be seen as arriving at Chesed...

All this makes sense, because if we take Binah as the archetype of forms, and the circle as the archetypical form, then your doctrine of the Cycles is Binahic (it simply is, actually), and thus it represents a possibility of crossing the Abyss - a bridge!

That is why I see such value in it. It offers a Bridge of Faith.... rather than demanding a leap.
All our work is invaluable.
We are the Aeon, this generation, the Pentad as my perspectives center of it. Because we're no mystics, we have subjugated mysticism by completely experiencing it exhaustively and drawing its philosophic values form it.

"The Adept must prepare and publish a thesis setting forth His knowledge of the Universe, and his proposals for its welfare and progress. He will thus be known as the leader of a school of thought."

You are of course already known as such a leader. I have long prepared for being one--what with my whole teaching of the Ages (Aeons, to speak with Crowley), though I got much of that from Strauss et al. Things may only have really started to come together for me with my "Oedipal" insight...

"To attain the Grade of Magister Templi, he must perform two tasks; the emancipation from thought by putting each idea against its opposite, and refusing to prefer either; and the consecration of himself as a pure vehicle for the influence of the order to which he aspires."

And this consecrating of oneself to the task is the crossing of the Abyss. It is to this end I now feel that our consecration is accompanied by follies - we are banishing our demons, throwing out the incomplete, and we can only do this by expressing it. A prelude to the Fool, which is the final path of the Ascent. We must be ready to make fools of ourselves by our highest wisdom - not merely losing our own ego but that of our gods too. In this sense the Cycle is apt because it allows for no single God but places them in a Wheel. The God is now the Wheel, Change, Fortune.... the path between Chesed and Netzach, Victory.

As for the first task: I may also have long been above the Abyss! What matters is that things now come together, and go apart, at Daäth.

I think all original genius has the character of the Supernal triad, and connects to the world through the lighting flash path. I think that path connects all Sephirot in one instant of "revelation"... of oneself to oneself. Terrible in its power.

"He must then decide upon the critical adventure of our Order; the absolute abandonment of himself and his attainments. He cannot remain indefinitely an Exempt Adept; he is pushed onward by the irresistible momentum that he has generated.
Should he fail, by will or weakness, to make his self-annihilation absolute, he is none the less thrust forth into the Abyss; but instead of being received and reconstructed in the Third Order, as a Babe in the womb of our Lady BABALON, under the Night of Pan, to grow up to be Himself wholly and truly as He was not previously, he remains in the Abyss, secreting his elements round his Ego as if isolated from the Universe, and becomes what is called a 'Black Brother'. Such a being is gradually disintegrated from lack of nourishment and the slow but certain action of the attraction of the rest of the Universe, despite efforts to insulate and protect himself, and to aggrandise himself by predatory practices. He may indeed prosper for a while, but in the end he must perish, especially when with a new Aeon a new word is proclaimed which he cannot and will not hear, so that he is handicapped by trying to use an obsolete method of Magick, like a man with a boomerang in a battle where every one else has a rifle."

This is ironic, as the old Aeon, as I understand it, is precisely the Aeon of the rifle--of mechanical, Machiavellian weaponry.

Yes, and we can all see them falling, burning....
I think there will be insanity for some years, all efforts tying to distract from the next Aeon will be televised, as television and the news are all symtpoms of this objectivistic compulsion.

I see Trump as the Shiva-dancer of politics, liberating it from slave morality and the spirit of gravity.
A scourge... to the slaves and those with wooden feet!

Kek, jester of the Abyss, is Trumps Holy Guardian Angel, and all Trumps campaign was Conversation with Kek.... hahaha (kek).
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:56 pm

Meno_ wrote:It scares me that I pretty much came to the same conclusion without having done much reading in Crowley or the Temple Orientalis. Excepting the thought that psychic ability increases with such perhaps it can be called an inner knowledge.

The Truth of the Aeon is not exclusive to Crowley.

Regarding science feeding into the tree, sustaining its
roots and reversely, at that point maybe the levels
converge
That is probably the symbolism behind the holy spirit forming from the separation and the final rejoining of
the father and the son

The Father as Chokmah and the Son as Tipharet are bound by the Emperor.
Caesar Unites Heaven and Earth.

Or on a deeper level, Aries - Alexander.
Yeah we will wander off into India in the end, Orbie. We will drink our wine and consecrate the vine - we will be forgiven with many eternal rewards for not wasting this dawn.

Blavatsky's The Secret Doctrine is probably a good start.

A rather dangerous advice. She could also be a bad end.
Or indeed a massive surge in power.
Dangerous folk, very powerful, but not without wickedness.

Lucifers Flame:

Alice Bailey: White Magic
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:05 pm

For Sauwelios:

"There was a suggestion by c.t. that Dionysus be considered as a counterpart of Venus. I'm going to switch to "component", in place of counterpart. So anyway, it felt right, but I wanted to research whether any such connection has been made by others. A psychological website urges men to get in touch with their "inner Dionysus", while for women, it's about their "inner Aphrodite". Aphrodite actually did have a brief fling with Dionysus in the Ancient Greek literature. In both cases it's about erotic love. And, there's the son of the Roman goddess Venus, Eros, as well. But the influence of the PLANET Venus has that dual nature, morning-star and evening-star, which brings in the component of the Logos, and is extremely concerned with Truth and Justice. The Goddess of Justice holds the Libran balance scale, and the sword (connected in Tarot as I learned about it to Air-signs). So, it would appear that the Planet Venus is a rather complex ruler, as is the Planet Mars. They've been oversimplified [IMO]." - David Starling, Jupiter-Time

"The Justice card, #XI of the Major Arcana, is associated with Libra. The original Goddess of Justice (in recorded history) was Inanna, Queen of Heaven as morningstar Venus. Ancient Egypt had it as Maat, with Osiris weighing souls in the balance according to Maat. That was in the first Decant of the Tropical Age of Scorpio, with Libra as the overlapping Background Age. The Pharaohs were expected to rule in accordance with Maat as well." - ibid.

Hey, happy Scorpio-Jupiter year by the way! Starts today.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Sauwelios » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:47 am

Though I used the word "Daäth", I wasn't so much thinking of the _Qabalistic_ "Tree of Life" in my OP.

I don't necessarily accept all those correspondences. I've arrived at the two-in-one from a quite different angle, and I'm not even sure that corresponds to Qabalah's Triangles. I mean, for me the Pillar of Equilibrium would really be the equilibrium of the two opposed Pillars--no more, no less (I was going to say), unless it be the "more than the sum of its parts".

When I read Crowley's Little Essay on Truth, after copying those Vision and the Voice quotes from there, what really struck me was this passage:

"Truth is our Path, and Truth is our Goal; ay! there shall came to all a moment of great Light when the Path is seen to be itself the Goal; and in that hour every one of us shall exclaim:
'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life!' "

I now see the Path as the Goal in the sense that the two-in-oneness of the Path, the Tao, is what I aim to see again and again, to keep seeing.

"To attain the Grade of Magister Templi, he must perform two tasks; the emancipation from thought by putting each idea against its opposite, and refusing to prefer either; and the consecration of himself as a pure vehicle for the influence of the order to which he aspires."

These two tasks are really two sides of the same coin. The Order to which I aspire is the Kosmos, the (W)Hole.

Fixed Cross wrote:We must be ready to make fools of ourselves by our highest wisdom - not merely losing our own ego but that of our gods too.

I was already reminded of the following:

"Adeptus (Exemptus). —Completes in perfection all these matters. He then either (a) becomes a Brother of the Left Hand Path or, (b) is stripped of all his attainments and of himself as well, even of his Holy Guardian Angel, and becomes a babe of the Abyss, who, having transcended the Reason, does nothing but grow in the womb of its mother. It then finds itself a
Magister Templi.—(Master of the Temple)[.]" ("One Star in Sight".)

I'm wary of this "ego-loss" thing, though. To be sure, Crowley also writes:

"The essential Attainment [of the Grade of Master of the Temple] is the perfect annihilation of that personality which limits and oppresses his true self." (ibid.)

I take this, however, to refer to the (Jungian) _Persona_, not the Ego. The mask must be transcended by uniting it with its suppressed counterpart, the Shadow; but the Ego must be united with the Anima (or Animus, if you're a woman). The latter however is not the same as the symbols of the Self (e.g., the Child archetype), which I've identified with my Holy Guardian Angel, my conception of Krishna. Though that conception was divided between Tiphareth and Netzach...

Reflections like this pull me back into that whole muddle, which I've associated with the lower half of the Tree. And now I've forgotten something I thought of while writing the previous paragraph. It was the spark of a thought, and maybe that seed would have grown into this: as long as the HGA is experienced as an Other, it will be rather feminine for a man and rather masculine for a woman, like Anima and Animus. It must be internalized. Likewise, I yesterday told a contact of mine:

::

Look: the "metaphysical" consolation of BT ASC 7--as opposed to the diesseitige consolation ("this side", the opposite of jenseits, "that side, yon side, beyond") is the idea that there is a chorus of satyrs behind/beyond the phenomenal world. The diesseitige consolation is the experience that there is a chorus of satyrs, or at least a single satyr, on this side, in this world, within the phenomenal world: namely, oneself (and one's peers).

And one may even be a satyr-god, a Dionysus (Nietzsche says he ranks people and peoples by how little they can distinguish the god from the satyr). For example, "that Dionysian Unhold called Zarathustra".

::

The Abyss, or its surface, is really a mirror. By the way, the left brain corresponds to the right side of the body and vice versa. I think Chokmah rather corresponds to the right brain than to the left, whereas Geburah, for example, corresponds to the right hand. Yet Jung quotes:

"God's left hand dashes to pieces; his right hand is glorious to save." (Quoted in Aion, "Christ, A Symbol of the Self".)

These are surely Geburah and Gedulah _respectively_. Though it may be of some significance that Hebrew is written from left to right. Also, the right brain also corresponds to the left eye and vice versa.

I've associated Dionysus with Tiphareth and Venus with Netzach. My Netzach-conception of Krishna was indeed rather Venereal¹ , and my Tiphareth-conception rather Dionysian. And the boy Dionysus gave himself away when he was hidden among a group of girls by the interest he showed in a veritable arsenal of weapons that was laid out before them. For me, Tiphareth has always been very close to Geburah. War and Love, not Peace and Love! Dionysus' throng is, among other things, an army.

¹ Also Artemis-like, found in sacred groves and all. A wood-sprite.

"The satyr and the idyllic shepherd of later times have both been products of a desire for naturalness and simplicity. But how firmly the Greek shaped his wood sprite, and how self-consciously and mawkishly the modern dallies with his tender, fluting shepherd!" (BT 8, dunno whose translation.)

Of course, I saw myself "metamorphosed into a satyr" (ib.) _long_ before Satyr adopted that name. Still, he may have been right in that I dallied too much with the tender, fluting shepherd Krishna--my Venereal Krishna. Interestingly, by the way, Nietzsche immediately continues:

"For the Greek the satyr expressed nature in a rude, uncultivated state: he did not, for that reason, confound him with the monkey [Affe]."

And, earlier on:

"[...] in the place of the Babylonian Sacaea, with their throwback of men to the condition of apes [Affen] and tigers, we now see entirely new rites celebrated[.]" (BT 2.)

There is a strong connection between the symbols of the tiger and lion in Nietzsche. And as I told you on Facebook recently:

"The Monkey is of course the Eastern or lunar counterpart to the sign of Leo. I've always seen Krishna as such a lion-monkey. "

My Tiphareth-conception, at least. My Netzach-conception, I associate too much with pining (away). The worst depiction I've ever seen of the latter is this:

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"Shepherd-god Krishna being intimate with his Rhada"

Ah, equilibrium, equilibrium!

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Krishna killing Kamsa

Not to post any sexually explicit pictures of Rhada and Krishna...
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:58 pm

I also get confounded by the muddle at the point where you do.

I also find it cause to a great muddling to have to imagine that it is not the kabalistic tree you speak of where you really are working very specifically with its particular structure and elements. I cant see what other tree of life there is that ahs these triangles, Tipharet, Death, and these pillars -
certainly this does not relate to Yggdrasil - just as little as the Sephirot can be tied to the Runes.

Each single rune is a tree of life. The Tree of Life is a rune.
Algiz, Eihwaz, Ansuz, Berkano -

I find your associations between self, ego, jung,animal and animus and such impossible to apply to my own understanding.
Yes, there is noting but wariness before the abyss -- it is really an abyss. One has to go through a death-like situation, be annihilated in a very real way, to cross it.

Before I received VO in my single eye in Mimirs well, I spent a couple of months (aged 33 to 34) very close to physical death. Id wake up with limbs paralysed, had to fight every day on the very precipice, for months on end. What was even more disturbing was that no one cared or worried in the least. In the end I managed to initiate a healing process myself by crossing the Atlantic and immersing myself in pure beauty of the Californian coast. I spent all my waking hours purging myself, I have cried and spat and blood many liters in one week.

Very quickly after I settled back in Vienna - another guy, her ex, had actually died - I was able to construct value ontology, which is this my Binah, my eternal form.

You must realize that when I speak of Odin and Mimirs well that I am speaking of myself. There is no distance between me and Odin. I a not Odin, but Odin is with me, close to me, too close to see. Wolf!

I too hung from Yggdrasil. I too divined the meaning of Runes.

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Pure masculine power. Raw energy, completely unconditioned. Unacceptable standards of strength. A mans maximal capacity for lust. The drive that causes murder and war. Blindness of losing oneself in what one is without goals.

Digging downward-forward. Ploughing through life and leaving fertile chaos and upheaval as a trail. Mammoth strength. Marching barbarian army. The synchronized heartbeats of a million soldiers. Drums in the deep.

Roar of a monstrous predator already too close to see. Encroaching darkness. Male Earth. Pillars being drilled into the ground. Pillars being raised. Primordial phallic strength. Brute rhythms. Satan.

Excess force flows back into the Earth. The kundalini turned downward.

The need for resistance. Powerful jaw. Raging bull. Walking the Earth in search of pain to grow by. To know oneself the hard way.

Titanic determination. All or death. The force that blindly enslaves. Strength that builds empires.

::

But I think that you did cross the Abyss, long ago. I think when you shaved your head and became a Kirshna dancer, this was your crossing.
Perhaps you did cross it prematurely - but in that case somehow you made your way back.
Perhaps now you will cross it again, and become more fully singular of mind like the dance commands, and without all these intellectual associations of this=that that can not do justice to the Single Eye.

I disagree with Crowleys formula of opposites. It is too instrumentalists, and true concepts do not have opposites. Wha ti who opposite of the will to power? The unwill to power, the will to weakness? There is no true logic, no cleanliness in that formula.

::

In my vision, the three pillars all exist by virtue of the two others. Since duality is a construct, there could not be two opposite pillars if there wasn't a composite world for both to relate. This corresponds to my contention that the formula of two quanta of will to power engaging each other and forming a unified hierarchy wile retaining their nature as WtP, requires a "middle ground", a "common term" in terms of which they both can value themselves and each other. That mid term is symbolized through the trey the center of the middle axis, by Tipharet, and thus Beauty is a very acceptable word for the criterion that most humanly defines self-valuing.

Realer than duality is difference.
Sich as how Isa contrast Nauthiz on the left and Jera on the right - consecutive runes aren't opposites, they are simply new worlds that have been made possible by the fulfilment of the old one.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:46 pm

Because I am expressing myself somewhat disdainfully vs part of your method here, and I don't want to break the good spell here entirely, I will add some substance to this assertion that you've crossed the abyss as Shiva-dancer; your shaving of the head and beard was the relinquishing of the ego, whatever term we use (terms dont have fixed or truly logically valid meaning to me, except valuing and its permutations) - your crossing of the abyss was a fiery scourge that burned up all you had in soft, likeable life-enjoying persona until then - you became thoroughly hard, cold, Binahic, closed, and began to come up with life-altering concepts primarily the Shiva-Dance itself.

That Dance itself is your created Temple.... , "Master".
In many ways you have lowered yourself since then, not in ethics but in status - but I can see how all this is warranted, as the time for philosophic rulership is only just arriving.

You can be said to be a morning-star, a Lucifer in this sense.
To be honest I still don't relate much to your attempts to reconcile thinkers with each other on their own terms. I only truly care for your own genius, which is far more threatening and dangerous than Jungs or Crowleys. But I can now abide by the fact that your genius feeds on these processes that I do not personally directly value.

Fuck Jung and Crowley, in the final instance. They were superstitious jugglers of terms too - everyone except Nietzsche and myself has bee uneconomic and imprecise with the operative terms. Im the one who took Nietzsches analytic work to the final consequence. Because I fully see the folly of the Word.
But in terms of operative power, value-creating virtue and courage, many others are worthy and necessary.

Pure human self-valuing may simply require some form of Shiva-Dancing. It certainly does for me.
How could I believe in a god that doesn't know how to dance?
How could I be a god, not knowing how to dance?

Ha.

Hail Shiva!
And hail the Mutable Cross.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:12 pm

Concerning the klippot - here you are actually more cabalistic than I can afford being, as I don't recognize the klippot, because of my particular type of philosophic cleanliness.
As I understand the origin of the concept they simply represent the opposite to the holy sephirot.
Now obviously I dont acknowledge the existence of un-holy being.
Un-holy to what?
If they were un-holy to themselves they could not exist.
But then yeah, the term klippot means "shell", and it is true that humans denying their self valuing / WtP nature, are indeed shells, hollow appearances of existence.

Id thus dub the klippotic tree as the Hollow Tree. Haha.

The hollow tree of un-life. (= un-death)
I only have desire to burn this tree. And thats exactly what I intend to do - and what Ive been doing as Fixed Cross.

Set fire to the klippot, to all the formative worlds hollow shells, to all pretence of being which can only exist as pure envy, as pure negative function.
So the tree of unlife/undeath is the tree of envy.

Yes. That makes perfect sense to me.
I will start calling trolls klippot, and troll like behaviour kippotic behaviour.
For example, the klippot contra-Nietzsche was a tipharet of envy. Before his envy became so strong that it consumed him - an event that I purposefully engineered using actual beauty.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:43 pm

In short, I do not value self-valuing in terms of anything else, I value everything else in terms of self-valuing.
Thus, Crowley, Jung, the ancient Hebrews, or whoever, have no fundamental significance - they are merely grain on my mill.
Nietzsche, Heraclitus and Thales are men I consider akin to my ethics of logic, and these three do hold for me a fundamental significance.
Homers works are no less fundamental, for the same reasons.

I truly see most of what has been thought since Athens became too civilized and produced Socrates who could never be imagined in war or in the wild, as abject nonsense. And that is because Socrates introduced the practice of indirect, referential virtue. Virtue that can be inferred using tricks of reason. But real virtue is alway splendidly palpable, radiantly healthy and straight-forward. So to me Sokrates represents a klippotic shell of virtue empty of self-valuing, wanting only death (being un-death).
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:13 pm

On women: they possess the will to be willing. But it takes a man of will to allow her to be that. So she wills for a man of will; she is austere, severe, judgmental, before she can be willing.

Thus she scorns unwillful, hesitant and self-doubting men - it stands in the way of her will to be willing.

This is why criminals always find women, it is easy with a criminal life to be willing, as everything moves unpredictably. Still these are lowly woman because a criminal will always have furtive status and the child will have a difficult life and might not be able to be a sun - especially as the criminal father will tend to be jealous, or at the very least overly manipulative.

For a housewife in a mediocre economic situation there is very little opportunity to be willful, so she will indulge in sexual games of submission and/or when she is frigid she will seek to use her willfulness toward other objects than her own willingness, she wil seek to dominate aggressively, rather than from the heights - she wil seek "equal opportunity" and destroy the chemistry that pushes men to be outwardly strong and inwardly deep, she will draw men closer to what she thinks they are - an imagination I don't care to indulge, first of all because I am not a woman, second because it is per-verted - turned-through; twisted.

It removes her from her height. A real woman authoritatively prods men and selects the specimen she allows to... will her being forth.
Men certainly are livestock to women. Until she selects her Man - allows a mans will to possess her spirit and emotions, whereby his body comes to serve her will. A mans power must serve the woman. Surely the woman serves the man. But she serves her own judgment, her valuing. A man becomes part of her self-valuing, the moon to her Earth, causing the emotional tides and what lies beneath them. The Child as it is conceived of is from there on the Sun to the whirling pair.

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To further my argument, here now is Varg.

The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Sauwelios » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:36 am

Fixed Cross wrote:I also get confounded by the muddle at the point where you do.

I also find it cause to a great muddling to have to imagine that it is not the kabalistic tree you speak of where you really are working very specifically with its particular structure and elements. I cant see what other tree of life there is that ahs these triangles, Tipharet, Death, and these pillars -
certainly this does not relate to Yggdrasil - just as little as the Sephirot can be tied to the Runes.


Well, I certainly went on to do so after saying that stuff in the beginning. Definitely starting from when I reposted this quote:

"To attain the Grade of Magister Templi, he must perform two tasks; the emancipation from thought by putting each idea against its opposite, and refusing to prefer either; and the consecration of himself as a pure vehicle for the influence of the order to which he aspires."

I'm aware that this is inconsistent. The thing is that it's easy for me to "relapse" into all those associations, as I was confronted with the Qabalistic Tree of Life at an impressionable age or time or whatever. In fact, same time as you, of course.

Now I've come back to these matters, after having gladly been able not to dwell on them for quite a few years, from the angle of my Heraclitus revelation, that "subtle ecstasy". More on this below, I think.


Each single rune is a tree of life. The Tree of Life is a rune.
Algiz, Eihwaz, Ansuz, Berkano -


Not sure I can accept this. I mean, wasn't the Hebrew alphabet originally a collection of 22 "runes"? If this sounds insulting, that's just due to ignorance; I have no special relationship with the runes, though I do find some, maybe all, of them beautiful.

The Qabalistic Tree of Life (henceforth QToL) is supposed to be _the_ Tree of Life, encompassing everything. The temptation for me has been to give it the benefit, not the "malefit", of the doubt: the doubt as to whether it's really universal, or at least universally Western, or at least applicable to _me_.

The same goes for Jungian archetypes and the like. I've always found such ideas tempting. We could say that the "archetype-archetype" really exists in me... Again, more below.

I find your associations between self, ego, jung,animal and animus and such impossible to apply to my own understanding.
Yes, there is noting but wariness before the abyss -- it is really an abyss. One has to go through a death-like situation, be annihilated in a very real way, to cross it.


What I meant has to do with the notion/fact that psychedelics "dissolve the ego" at high doses, something I read repeatedly when I browsed Wikipedia on them recently (can't readily find it again; it may have been on the Dutch or German Wikipedia). To me that seems something to avoid, or at least to approach carefully; my trips have usually been a case of trying and mitigating the effects of the substances in question. In fact, the last time, last week, was the only time I didn't have (somewhat of) a bad trip before the good stuff began. Next time, which I intend to be kind of soon, I think I'll get a greater amount of the same species. I think the only difference between species is the ratio of the active substances they contain, and I guess this species' ratio agreed with me. Depending on next time's outcome, I may try a different, stronger species the time after that.


Before I received VO in my single eye in Mimirs well, I spent a couple of months (aged 33 to 34) very close to physical death. Id wake up with limbs paralysed, had to fight every day on the very precipice, for months on end. What was even more disturbing was that no one cared or worried in the least. In the end I managed to initiate a healing process myself by crossing the Atlantic and immersing myself in pure beauty of the Californian coast. I spent all my waking hours purging myself, I have cried and spat and blood many liters in one week.


Yeah, I'm not sure if we saw each other a lot back then. I do remember coming by now and then, including when you were living in your attic. I don't think it was necessarily obvious that you were in such a bad way. And it wasn't such a good time for myself, either.


Very quickly after I settled back in Vienna - another guy, her ex, had actually died - I was able to construct value ontology, which is this my Binah, my eternal form.

You must realize that when I speak of Odin and Mimirs well that I am speaking of myself. There is no distance between me and Odin. I a not Odin, but Odin is with me, close to me, too close to see. Wolf!

I too hung from Yggdrasil. I too divined the meaning of Runes.

Image

URUZ
Intimated to/by Fixed Cross

Pure masculine power. Raw energy, completely unconditioned. Unacceptable standards of strength. A mans maximal capacity for lust. The drive that causes murder and war. Blindness of losing oneself in what one is without goals.

Digging downward-forward. Ploughing through life and leaving fertile chaos and upheaval as a trail. Mammoth strength. Marching barbarian army. The synchronized heartbeats of a million soldiers. Drums in the deep.

Roar of a monstrous predator already too close to see. Encroaching darkness. Male Earth. Pillars being drilled into the ground. Pillars being raised. Primordial phallic strength. Brute rhythms. Satan.

Excess force flows back into the Earth. The kundalini turned downward.

The need for resistance. Powerful jaw. Raging bull. Walking the Earth in search of pain to grow by. To know oneself the hard way.

Titanic determination. All or death. The force that blindly enslaves. Strength that builds empires.

::


This is good stuff.


But I think that you did cross the Abyss, long ago. I think when you shaved your head and became a Kirshna dancer, this was your crossing.
Perhaps you did cross it prematurely - but in that case somehow you made your way back.


That's the thing: psychedelics (including marijuana) can easily enlighten one prematurely. And I shaved my head even though I felt it was in no way necessary (and, for the record, I definitely didn't get the idea from some "authority"--it was entirely my own). It was probably a mistake.

Anyway, you may well be right. "Krishna-dancing" was really my mitigation of my "Shiva-dancing", which was not unlike my experience with Daäth, less than a year later: I distinctly felt that it would be self-destructive to Shiva-dance too much. Unfortunately, since I moved house a few months later, I've never really had the possibility to go all-out at it again. I'd probably need a really quiet floor for it.


Perhaps now you will cross it again, and become more fully singular of mind like the dance commands, and without all these intellectual associations of this=that that can not do justice to the Single Eye.


Well, in that form ("this=that"), I do think it does justice. E.g.:

this : right eye
= : third eye
that : left eye

Yesterday, before I fell asleep, I reflected some more on the QToL, and mused that maybe I was so "naturally" close to Hod that it's kind of my blind spot: it's certainly the Sephira I find least interesting and have studied the least. Also, I think I'm "naturally" closer to the Pillar of Severity than that of Mercy, anyway. Chesed--after which the latter Pillar is named, I suppose--has always been my least favourite Sephira. Your video on it made me more favourably disposed toward it, though.


I disagree with Crowleys formula of opposites. It is too instrumentalists, and true concepts do not have opposites. Wha ti who opposite of the will to power? The unwill to power, the will to weakness? There is no true logic, no cleanliness in that formula.


Well, "not the will to power" would technically be the opposite. Nietzsche speaks at one point of "the impotence to power", in deliberate contrast with the will to power. And we might think of the will to the recurrence as the sublation of the will to power. But in the first place, I'm reminded of Strauss when he says the doctrine of the will to power, though it will seem obviously the supreme world-denial, is actually the opposite of this, the supreme world-affirmation. The opposite is indeed a mere negative, "not the will to power"--nothingness.


::

In my vision, the three pillars all exist by virtue of the two others. Since duality is a construct, there could not be two opposite pillars if there wasn't a composite world for both to relate. This corresponds to my contention that the formula of two quanta of will to power engaging each other and forming a unified hierarchy wile retaining their nature as WtP, requires a "middle ground", a "common term" in terms of which they both can value themselves and each other. That mid term is symbolized through the trey the center of the middle axis, by Tipharet, and thus Beauty is a very acceptable word for the criterion that most humanly defines self-valuing.

Realer than duality is difference.
Sich as how Isa contrast Nauthiz on the left and Jera on the right - consecutive runes aren't opposites, they are simply new worlds that have been made possible by the fulfilment of the old one.


I'm not so sure duality is a construct. Duality is the simplest form of plurality (difference). And, by way of the concept "not", all difference can be conceived as a duality.

I'll stop, I'm spent, for now.
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Re: Interjunction.

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:25 am

Sauwelios wrote:

When I read Crowley's Little Essay on Truth, after copying those Vision and the Voice quotes from there, what really struck me was this passage:

"Truth is our Path, and Truth is our Goal; ay! there shall came to all a moment of great Light when the Path is seen to be itself the Goal; and in that hour every one of us shall exclaim:
'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life!' "



Alistair Crowley was head of the Ordo Templi Orientis and during this time rewrote many O.T.O. rituals which were based on Freemasonry. He devised a magical working (whatever that means) on anal sex and incorporated it into the syllabus for those O.T.O. members who had been initiated into the eleventh degree.

He was a depraved human being.

There was nothing "good" about this man, of course that is only my opinion, no doubt you will disagree.
The man that walks his own road, walks alone

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Re: Interjunction.

Postby Sauwelios » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:38 am

Oh no, ANAL SEX!!!
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Sauwelios
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