Nietzsche and Hemingway

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Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:00 pm

"Such mighty music from a single soul!
Ah, Wagner! You were superman until
Religion made your song effeminate.
Who can forgive your cowering 'Parsifal'."

The old man's hands fell on piano keys,
But not into a chord. He saw the book
And touched it gently as he would touch a child
And said, "I, too, wrote good books once."

A worm of youth was gnawing in his brain,
Was eating up his passion's time and form,
Was spreading through his vision's final space
Its poisonous rest, its waste--oblivion.

"Your pretty thought does not describe hard life.
It tells a wish. You have to save yourself.
Redemption is the honesty of courage,
The guts to bet yourself against all odds.

The old man grieved because his net of words
Fell on a page, no longer catching him;
And, knowing only what a man should do,
With wounded beasts he kissed the phallic gun.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:44 pm

The connection here is that Nietzsche imagined a superman, not a superwoman. He saved "effeminate" for his critique on Christianity. Likewise, Hemingway espoused the alpha male POV. The question is--did their philosophies of life contribute to madness on one hand and suicide on the other?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:21 pm

Ierrellus wrote:The connection here is that Nietzsche imagined a superman, not a superwoman. He saved "effeminate" for his critique on Christianity. The question is--did their philosophies of life contribute to madness on one hand and suicide on the other?

if someone imagines about superman everyday, and not superwoman, that means they are probably gay or effiminate in some way. Gayness was frowned upon in those days, so it might have had something to do with their madness and/or suicide.

Likewise, Hemingway espoused the alpha male POV.

Back when i used to watch porn, i preferred lesbian POV porn honestly.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:55 pm

Trixie Z wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:The connection here is that Nietzsche imagined a superman, not a superwoman. He saved "effeminate" for his critique on Christianity. The question is--did their philosophies of life contribute to madness on one hand and suicide on the other?

if someone imagines about superman everyday, and not superwoman, that means they are probably gay or effiminate in some way. Gayness was frowned upon in those days, so it might have had something to do with their madness and/or suicide.

Likewise, Hemingway espoused the alpha male POV.

Back when i used to watch porn, i preferred lesbian POV porn honestly.

Because one sees himself as the alpha male and philosophizes accordingly does not prove he is gay. Disproportionate, maybe.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Orbie » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:28 pm

Nietzche's Gay Science IS a testament of some sort into the evolution of prophetic condemning words.
In fact 'gayness'is a spectacular shift in perception. The trigger is phenomenological, it is a phenomenal shift, due to various pressures, influences, revelations, misconceptions, nuances, frames of reference, frames of mind, attributions, strengths by chance occurances, revolutions, reversion so of underlying motives, effects of appropriate play acting, with proper care to infuse with subliminal affect. Changes of deliberate invocation of a hierarchy of underlying postulates' reset withe coordination of mythological artifacts. When the young can no longer dream, the old will love them for their abandonment. Finally the aesthetic dispersion of
ideal elements within a pre-existing unity, foe ever re-ignited, and taken 'as-is', formless sly re-constituted in a relative field of accaliration.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Orbie » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:47 pm

The above implied connection is as tenuous as it is facetitious. However, any two different meanings can be contrasted, as contrast is, the key element of artistic expression. Can a poem be contrasted with an aphorism? Of course, any thing can be related.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Orbie » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:56 pm

The derivation of 'gay' goes back to the sixteenth 1600 hundreds with Chaucer saying, ' in our bed he was so......and gay. This derivation was sustained in the late 1800's, where Nietzche was well aware of this usage, as something showy, promiscuous, (referring to brothels and baths). gay science was published around the 1890's.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:58 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Because one sees himself as the alpha male and philosophizes accordingly does not prove he is gay. Disproportionate, maybe.

Kissing a phallic gun does, though, however.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:20 pm

Trixie Z wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Because one sees himself as the alpha male and philosophizes accordingly does not prove he is gay. Disproportionate, maybe.

Kissing a phallic gun does, though, however.

Not necessarily. It may just be an idealizing of manhood.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:20 pm

Trixie Z wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:Because one sees himself as the alpha male and philosophizes accordingly does not prove he is gay. Disproportionate, maybe.

Kissing a phallic gun does, though, however.

Not necessarily. It may just be an idealizing of manhood. The worm of youth could be seen as effects of syphilis or as a product of the deification of manhood. Neither Nietzsche nor Hemingway was gay in our modern sense of the word. Guns are phallic symbols. To kiss one may be merely to embrace its power. Rockets are also phallic symbols.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Orbie » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:54 pm

Irr, both Nietzche and Hemmingway have been studied post humeously ex post facto. The consensus is that they were latent homosexuals.
Which was a pretty bad thing back then. The guy who broke the Nazi code back in WW2, was gay, and committed suicide on account. Back then, it was a matter of life and death, if such things were revealed.
Even today, post 'don't ask don't tell, there are reservations. Of course, it is a mistake to read into poetry to ascertain meaning, such attempt would defeat the figurative intent of that genre. It would seem to defeat it's purpose.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Jakob » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:10 pm

Orbie wrote:Irr, both Nietzche and Hemmingway have been studied post humeously ex post facto. The consensus is that they were latent homosexuals.
Which was a pretty bad thing back then. The guy who broke the Nazi code back in WW2, was gay, and committed suicide on account. Back then, it was a matter of life and death, if such things were revealed.
Even today, post 'don't ask don't tell, there are reservations. Of course, it is a mistake to read into poetry to ascertain meaning, such attempt would defeat the figurative intent of that genre. It would seem to defeat it's purpose.


Jesus, can someone seriously take N to be gay? That is really silly.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Jakob » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:15 pm

Overt masculinity does not mean gay ness. In these times it may seem to you like that because you are being told.

But try to talk to real gays. Try to have experience and thoughts.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Jakob » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:21 pm

not a bad poem by the way.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Jakob » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:30 pm

Gays do not typically love violence. They do not typically get crazy when a woman rejects them. They never SOUND masculine. They do not understand the masculine heart well enough to seduce man to his true love; war. Women do understand in their way. Hetero Man - Hetero Woman - Gay Man - Lesbian. That is how identification powers seem to be separated.

(Yes , this is based on social experience with each group. And yes it is profiling and pointless. It is just that to think N was gay one must have either not read N or never talked to a gay person. Hemingway gay??? That sounds absurd but Ill have to look into it.)
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:26 pm

Jakob,
Thanks for your insights into this poem. I've read much N. & H. The poem was not intended to show that either was gay. But I can see how it was interpreted in that way from my using "worm of youth" and "phallic gun" to symbolize a certain type of masculinity. Unfortunately for us poets who read their ideas into things, Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." That N and H were "latent homosexuals" is a Freudian interpretation of the poem.
N.'s worm of youth was penis thinking. He attended a brothel. He caught syphilis (SIC). H's phallic gun was his final surrender to the violence of his masculinity. Only a cursory reading of the poem and of writings of N. and H. would suggest that they were latent homosexuals.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:53 pm

See Will Durant's "The Story of Philosophy" for a good view of Nietzsche's last days.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:53 pm

duplicate
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:33 pm

Jakob wrote:Gays do not typically love violence. They never SOUND masculine. They do not understand the masculine heart well enough to seduce man to his true love; war. Women do understand in their way. Hetero Man - Hetero Woman - Gay Man - Lesbian. That is how identification powers seem to be separated.

(Yes , this is based on social experience with each group. And yes it is profiling and pointless. It is just that to think N was gay one must have either not read N or never talked to a gay person. Hemingway gay??? That sounds absurd but Ill have to look into it.)


the aversion to violence is directly related to how sensitive one is. it has not much to do with ones sexual orientation, for example, you could be some effiminate peace love hippie who is sexually attracted to women because of how fairy-like they are.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Zoot Allures » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:16 pm

Jesus, can someone seriously take N to be gay? That is really silly.


He did once say something along the lines of reabsorbtion of semen into the blood was the best form of nourishment. Do you think he meant we should go easy on the whackin' or....or, oh god it's to horrible to think about.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Jakob » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:29 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Jakob,
Thanks for your insights into this poem. I've read much N. & H. The poem was not intended to show that either was gay. But I can see how it was interpreted in that way from my using "worm of youth" and "phallic gun" to symbolize a certain type of masculinity. Unfortunately for us poets who read their ideas into things, Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." That N and H were "latent homosexuals" is a Freudian interpretation of the poem.
N.'s worm of youth was penis thinking. He attended a brothel. He caught syphilis (SIC). H's phallic gun was his final surrender to the violence of his masculinity. Only a cursory reading of the poem and of writings of N. and H. would suggest that they were latent homosexuals.


It was to Orbie that I responded defiantly. Your poem hadn't evoked these ideas.

Penis-thinking.... its rather that erect objects follow similar purposes as the penis; penetration.

Not every long thing is a reference to a penis. A penis is simply the most sensitive long thing to us.

Z - sperm is the most concentrated protein gel available. That I know this does not make me attracted to consuming it. Cleopatra is told to use sperm as an ointment for her face. I suspect Beyonce of the same.

Nietzsche has no effeminate qualities. I am more gay than he is and I am not at all sexually or attracted to men. Even Caesar is more gay than Nietzsche.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Zoot Allures » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:03 am

Nietzsche has no effeminate qualities. I am more gay than he is and I am not at all sexually or attracted to men. Even Caesar is more gay than Nietzsche.


I see. So do you think he was hittin' Lou from underneath while Ree hit it from behind, or vice versa?
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Chakra Superstar » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:28 am

Zoot Allures wrote:
Jesus, can someone seriously take N to be gay? That is really silly.


He did once say something along the lines of reabsorbtion of semen into the blood was the best form of nourishment. Do you think he meant we should go easy on the whackin' or....or, oh god it's to horrible to think about.


I know you're joking but FTR: Freddie was referring to the Brahmin and abstinent hermits like himself. The Brahmin/priests believed semen was absorbs into the blood when it wasn’t expelled. The nutritious and psychological power that comes from overcoming the sexual urge and refocusing one's energy is what Nietzsche was on about. Nothing to do with gayness.
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Orbie » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:22 am

There is a world of difference between gay and latent homosexual. The straightest people, including those of historical notice, have had latency in this regard. Back then it was shameful, a disease, like whacking.
Things change, viewpoints change, and the story
does not quite end there. Usually the first ines to protest, the line can be applied, ' he who protest the most'. This was also mentioned of
Hitler, and given as the reason for his vehement
eradication efforts of Roehm.

Now, there are absolutely no eyebrows raised in this regard. Lawrence Olivier was bi and I remember
seeing his late wife, Vivian Leigh on the then popular
David Susskind show,saying that this gay baiting
thing is getting to be a bore. And this was way back in the seventies.


The only ones of true knowledge re their orientation are long gone and buried. Of Ceasar was said, that
he was a man for all women and a woman for all men.
Talking about changing attitudes!
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
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Re: Nietzsche and Hemingway

Postby Jakob » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:55 am

Zoot Allures wrote:
Nietzsche has no effeminate qualities. I am more gay than he is and I am not at all sexually or attracted to men. Even Caesar is more gay than Nietzsche.


I see. So do you think he was hittin' Lou from underneath while Ree hit it from behind, or vice versa?


Being dominated by a woman isn't effeminate, behaving like a woman is. All strong men want strong women, There is no joy in life being up against nothing.

Methinks Nietzsche was trying to express the Tragic, in the utterly unsophisticated 19th century ways of photography.
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