Story of my Life.

Elevate form over function to get at less easily articulable truths.

Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:29 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie

The "stop giving a fuck" remedy only works in short bursts.

Lies are like that.


I have a remarkable ability to mimic mental states.

Is that the same as the above, in a way?


I was "high all the time", as they say, without having to use the substance itself.

But when you are "high all the time"...how can you tell the difference between high or low? High becomes a low.


I've never gotten high a day in my life except maybe on coffee, books, nature, et cetera, and a beautiful male face. lol
But it seems to me that there comes a point, call it a tipping point, emotionally speaking, when you come to realize that your so-called high was only a lie, your brain's way of tricking you. The most natural wonderful high in the world is stillness, being, and having done nothing to actually get there.
Last edited by Arcturus Descending on Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Zoot Allures » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:30 pm

Noumenon - (in Kantian philosophy) a thing as it is in itself, as distinct from a thing as it is knowable by the senses through phenomenal attributes.

Now what is a noumenon? A thing, that has no connection to phenomenon, or reality.


So how do you know it exists if you can't experience it? You and Amorphos are killing me with this stuff man.

Have a look at how Sartre addressed the Kantian concept of noumena.

Against Kant, Sartre argues that the appearance of a phenomenon is pure and absolute. The noumenon is not inaccessible—it simply isn’t there. Appearance is the only reality. From this starting point, Sartre contends that the world can be seen as an infinite series of finite appearances. Such a perspective eliminates a number of dualisms, notably the duality that contrasts the inside and outside of an object. What we see is what we get (or, what appears is what we know).


Yea or nay?
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby ended6 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:30 pm

What is this working that you speak of?

Staying high all the time would render you dysfunctional, during the high and after it, depending upon how high you are that is.

Extreme lows do follow extreme highs, and that's the very reason why I choose not to get THAT high anymore. Finding your balance is needed I think.

Personally, I'm enjoying the 'high' of meditation at the moment, a special place I can venture into, I'm getting better and better at entering it without long delays. I like this place better than gods place, it just seems more real and beneficial.
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:31 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:GreatandWiseTrixie

The "stop giving a fuck" remedy only works in short bursts.

Lies are like that.


I have a remarkable ability to mimic mental states.

Is that the same as the above, in a way?


I was "high all the time", as they say, without having to use the substance itself.

But when you are "high all the time"...how can you tell the difference between high or low? High becomes a low.


I've never gotten high a day in my life except maybe on coffee, books, nature, et cetera, and a beautiful male face. lol
But it seems to me that there comes a point, call it a tipping point, emotionally speaking, when you come to realize that your so-called high was only a lie, your brain's way of tricking you. The most natural wonderful high in the world is stillness, being, and having done nothing to actually get there.


Now even you I did not know was so boring.
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:33 pm

Zoot Allures wrote:But that's all emotion is; the interaction of neurotransmitters, dendritic spikes and action potentials, and hormones. Fundamentally, an emotion is generated by ionized particles crossing a membrane. Saw a video of a doctor who had stimulated a specific region in the brain of a woman, causing her to laugh at the push of a button.


i suspect it has more to do with water.
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:34 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:But that's all emotion is; the interaction of neurotransmitters, dendritic spikes and action potentials, and hormones. Fundamentally, an emotion is generated by ionized particles crossing a membrane. Saw a video of a doctor who had stimulated a specific region in the brain of a woman, causing her to laugh at the push of a button.


Something about a doctor poking around in a woman's brain making her laugh on command, creeps me out and arouses me at the same time.
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:36 pm

Zoot Allures wrote:
Noumenon - (in Kantian philosophy) a thing as it is in itself, as distinct from a thing as it is knowable by the senses through phenomenal attributes.

Now what is a noumenon? A thing, that has no connection to phenomenon, or reality.


So how do you know it exists if you can't experience it? You and Amorphos are killing me with this stuff man.

Have a look at how Sartre addressed the Kantian concept of noumena.

Against Kant, Sartre argues that the appearance of a phenomenon is pure and absolute. The noumenon is not inaccessible—it simply isn’t there. Appearance is the only reality. From this starting point, Sartre contends that the world can be seen as an infinite series of finite appearances. Such a perspective eliminates a number of dualisms, notably the duality that contrasts the inside and outside of an object. What we see is what we get (or, what appears is what we know).


Yea or nay?


Define "experience" as you mean it?

Could one say that "consciousness" is a noumenon?
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:37 pm

No consciousness is a phenomenon.
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Orbie » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:46 pm

IT'S BOTH!
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
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Posts: 7596
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:47 pm

Orbie wrote:IT'S BOTH!


Other people's consciousness is noumenon, with a little bit of phenomenon evidence.

Your own consciousness is phenomenon.
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:51 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:GreatandWiseTrixie

The "stop giving a fuck" remedy only works in short bursts.

Lies are like that.


I have a remarkable ability to mimic mental states.

Is that the same as the above, in a way?


I was "high all the time", as they say, without having to use the substance itself.

But when you are "high all the time"...how can you tell the difference between high or low? High becomes a low.


I've never gotten high a day in my life except maybe on coffee, books, nature, et cetera, and a beautiful male face. lol
But it seems to me that there comes a point, call it a tipping point, emotionally speaking, when you come to realize that your so-called high was only a lie, your brain's way of tricking you. The most natural wonderful high in the world is stillness, being, and having done nothing to actually get there.


Now even you I did not know was so boring.


I can at times be quite boring but then again...at times...well you might be surprised. lol

But we all come from different perspectives. Yours may be based in the part of my life which you have not lived.
I for one would like to live within your brain for about 10 minutes - it might help me to understand you better. It might take longer than that though.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Zoot Allures » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:01 pm

A prime example of a language game; you all are talking about consciousness as if it were a thing, and confusion results.

Think of the ways in which you use the word 'consciousness' that make it noticably meaningful.

He is conscious, doctor.

He's lost consciousness.

Be conscious of what you are doing.

In each of these examples you know precisely what is meant with the word. But when you put this otherwise ordinary term into a metaphysical environment, all the 'signs', as Wittgenstein put it, are lost.

Now you are all talking about consciousness in a way that doesn't make it meaningful, and calling it something (noumena) that doesn't exist.

That's a double philosophically nonsensical whammy, you know.

If one were to say 'consciousness is a phenomena', this would meaningfully translate into 'the person who is conscious is a phenomena', because a person can be experienced.

Moreover, the statement 'I can't experience your consciousness' isn't true or false, because consciousness is not something that can or can't be experienced.
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Orbie » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:07 pm

Hate to cut in but I dissent with the above. consciousness or reversible a Möbius strip kind of lining underplays it, a lot can be inferred, a whole lot can be known from another's experoence, usually beyond the intended communication of the author.
And that creates a grey area between literal and figurative, fact and fiction, trust and distrust. you simply never know, just have to trust your instincts.
If you do, and have done so, to your benefit then go on. if not be resigned to the futility to ever really trust anyone.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Zoot Allures » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:19 pm

a whole lot can be known from another's experoence, usually beyond the intended communication of the author.


Through an analogy of behavior, yes. He smiles, he must be happy. He bites his nails, he must be nervous. Etc. But there is no communication going on here outside of behavior and language. You cannot make 'contact' with another consciousness. I could be a p-zombie and you couldn't tell the difference.
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:20 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
I can at times be quite boring but then again...at times...well you might be surprised. lol

But we all come from different perspectives. Yours may be based in the part of my life which you have not lived.
I for one would like to live within your brain for about 10 minutes - it might help me to understand you better. It might take longer than that though.


You'd be irreversibly damaged, I think.
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:23 pm

Zoot Allures wrote:
a whole lot can be known from another's experoence, usually beyond the intended communication of the author.


Through an analogy of behavior, yes. He smiles, he must be happy. He bites his nails, he must be nervous. Etc. But there is no communication going on here outside of behavior and language. You cannot make 'contact' with another consciousness. I could be a p-zombie and you couldn't tell the difference.


If one bites one nails, one can become nervous. If one rubs ones chin, one can force ones self to think more deeply.

Emotions can be forced by physical actions. It is hard for someone to bite ones nails and not become nervous from the act of doing so.

They could still be a p-zombie though.
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Orbie » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:27 pm

Zoot Allures wrote:
a whole lot can be known from another's experoence, usually beyond the intended communication of the author.


Through an analogy of behavior, yes. He smiles, he

must be happy. He bites his nails, he must be nervous. Etc. But there is no communication going on
here outside of behavior and language. You cannot


make 'contact' with another consciousness. I could be

a p-zombie and you couldn't tell the



difference.



But there is little else then behavior and language. if there is, it can only be sensed through other means,
such as?

Extra ordinary means of communication



Extra-ordinary means of. Omani action. But of that later.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Orbie » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:10 am

Error In the above, pls scratch 'Omani Action' It is an uncorrectible typo.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Story of my Life.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:58 am

There is an Edit button you know.
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:02 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:
I can at times be quite boring but then again...at times...well you might be surprised. lol

But we all come from different perspectives. Yours may be based in the part of my life which you have not lived.
I for one would like to live within your brain for about 10 minutes - it might help me to understand you better. It might take longer than that though.


You'd be irreversibly damaged, I think.


You're basing that on what you know about yourself but you don't know who I am, what I am capable of or not capable of, where my journey has taken me.
And if you yourself have not been irreversibly damaged, you can't say the same about me.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:13 pm

Trixie


You cannot make 'contact' with another consciousness. I could be a p-zombie and you couldn't tell the difference.


I don't go along with that. It's what people can do when they relate to one another on an intimate non-sexually speaking level.
Are you going to tell me that you can't know a person, look at a person and see their consciousness, how they think, feel, intuit and experience on some level what it's like to be them - we do it at times ALSO through empathy and compassion. One doesn't even have to know a person but observe them for a time.

You also say someone could be a zombie and you wouldn't know it. You couldn't see the lack of light in their eyes or their conscious, deliberate acts or movements? You couldn't tell in the way they spoke to you - probably more vacuus then even a robot might and a robot does have a certain kind of consciousness though it's not human.

Of course, that's just my perspective.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
User avatar
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Zoot Allures » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:05 pm

There is a long philosophical history which is responsible for the development of the notion of 'spirit', which culminated in the rationalism of the seventeenth century. Here's a short version.

First there was the epistemologically underdeveloped idea of the spirit held by primitive, religious cultures (these being animistic.. not yet anthropomorphic). This the result of the evolution of the frontal cortex, an addition that gave man the capacity for self awareness. The strangeness of this new self awarness was responsible for man feeling as if he had freewill; his deliberate acts of volition gave him the impression that he was something other than a mechanical body operated by the laws of nature. Trees blew in the wind, water flowed, rocks rolled down hills, but man could 'choose' to do what he did, he could deliberate and plan, foresee and anticipate possible outcomes, and this was something other natural things could not do. Now man unwittingly created a new metaphysical division (which will later be analyzed by epistemologists and rationalists of all colors); man no longer thought of himself as a dumb mechanical force, but rather as a 'subject' that does action... the 'doer' and the 'deed' now being seperate things. Enter the pronoun; 'I' raise my arm, 'I' eat a doughnut, ect. Formally, before self awareness of this kind, human ancestors just plodded along without language, and therefore without language oriented thinking.

Fastforward thousands of years. More advanced human beings, now called 'philosophers', use their now extraordinarily complex language to further define and describe the category of the 'subject', the 'me'. This notion then becomes thought of as a different substance than that which things in the world are composed of. The greeks used an analogy of an instrument to describe how the subject relates to and is connected to the body. Is the spirit the instrument, the tuning of the instrument, the sound of the instrument, what? Does the spirit leave the body in the same way that an instrument becomes silent when it isn't played. So on and so forth.

Now that the pronoun 'me' is a permanent fixture in philosophical language, philosophers from the dark ages forward begin messing around with it epistemologically. The father of a new and thoroughly thought out rationalism appears.. Descartes, who's famous dualistic system asserted that there were two distinct substances.. one was material substance, the other spiritual substance, and the two interacted casually (later Spinoza would refute this dualistic theory). Kant comes in and calls this phenomenological 'self' a transcendent thing, whatever that means.

Summary: dumb human ancestors walk around unaware. Brain evolves. A neat little glitch in the processing centers creates the illusion of freewill (see 'five millisecond rule'). Man becomes aware of his being aware and calls himself 'me'. He says 'I' do this. Not only that this is done, but there is also a 'doer' who does it, and that is me.

Philosophers incorporate this erroneous concept of the 'self' into metaphysical religious theory. The old animistic systems are outdated and man begins to anthropomorphize metaphysics; there are intelligent human like gods up there and they created us, and unlike the imperfect, changing empirical world of things, man's 'spirit', this second substance, is pure and immutable. It does not die with the body but goes somewhere else.

Fastforward to the age of positivism.. where we are at the point of the p-zombie. Philosophers now argue that the way philosophers of the past treated the concept of the 'self' is erroneous.. they talked about it as if it were a 'thing' (thanks Descartes) and applied to it what Ryle called a category mistake. You'll have to google that because I ain't about to explain it.

Now we arrive at Wittgensteins beetle in a box (google again). Previously the cartesian model of the 'self' proposed that the self was a private entity, something hidden from view, something in others we could not make contact with. Chalmers adds a neat little twist; if there was a private self in that brain, you couldn't ever find it, because all we can observe is the behavior of others... not their mind. He tries to get around this problem with talk of qualia or Nagel's 'the eye that sees but cannot be seen'. There are problems with that too but we won't go into it here.

Now my point earlier was to emphasize this problem of the private self and the fact that if you were to interact with a robot that could mimic human behavior, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the robot and a real person (you'll need to check out Searle's chinese room experiment, too). The cartesian second substance of the spirit, there inside the body, is therefore a null question.

The behaviorists then come along and claim that the argument about 'mental' states is not the point. The point is that they are superfluous when only the behavior of human beings is in question. What they are 'thinking' is irrelevant, how they act and behave is the only thing accessible to the sciences.

Leave the leftovers for the philosophers chasing their own tails.
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:35 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Trixie


You cannot make 'contact' with another consciousness. I could be a p-zombie and you couldn't tell the difference.


I don't go along with that. It's what people can do when they relate to one another on an intimate non-sexually speaking level.
Are you going to tell me that you can't know a person, look at a person and see their consciousness, how they think, feel, intuit and experience on some level what it's like to be them - we do it at times ALSO through empathy and compassion. One doesn't even have to know a person but observe them for a time.

You also say someone could be a zombie and you wouldn't know it. You couldn't see the lack of light in their eyes or their conscious, deliberate acts or movements? You couldn't tell in the way they spoke to you - probably more vacuus then even a robot might and a robot does have a certain kind of consciousness though it's not human.

Of course, that's just my perspective.


A woman of contradictions, I see. In another thread, you claim all energy is sexual. Now all of a sudden, its possible to be intimate, but not "sexually speaking."
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Re: Story of my Life.

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:02 pm

Trixie,

A woman of contradictions, I see. In another thread, you claim all energy is sexual. Now all of a sudden, its possible to be intimate, but not "sexually speaking."


Yes, I can be a woman of contradictions. I'm human and nothing in life is so black and white and easy to understand. People are capable of holding two separate thoughts in their minds at one time and they can be contrary to each other or appear to be anyway - perhaps it's the way we compartmentalize thoughts in our brains.



In another thread, you claim all energy is sexual. Now all of a sudden, its possible to be intimate, but not "sexually speaking."


I was trying to explain that I was not speaking of intimacy on a purely sexual level - because when one uses that word, many people take it for granted that that is what is meant.

But for me ALL energy is sexual. We are all sexual creatures we human beings with consciousness. It is our basic sexual natures which drive our spirits, our passions, our desires, which move us to act, to love, to hate, to survive, to feel empathy, compassion. All of that to me is deeply rooted in our human sexuality. We just re-direct that energy so it appears to be something else.
So even an intimate conversation where there is no talk or intimation of sex or romance, is still in part of a sexual nature, driven by that sexual energy, simply by reason of our being sexual creatures and our inter-connectedness with one another.

So, yes, I suppose that I was contradicting myself at that time. But you needn't feel this way though.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Location: A state of unknowing

Re: Story of my Life.

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:36 pm

I must.
I am losing my mind to mandess.
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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