if you could do the classic “go back in time” trick and change history so that islam had never started as a religion, would you?
if not, would you do it with any other religion? (apart from the obvious satan-worshipping, child-branding type - although lets face it, they’re the most amusing)
I’m confused as to why you’ve targetted Islam nicky.
Tamblius, you say that without religion our moral codes would be different. What you must remember is that religion has come from morality. It is hard to deny that people without religion have morality and therefore it is impossible to say that morality comes from religion.
People, a long time ago realised that it’s not very beneficial to murder, steal, covet etc. and so they said “look, if you murder someone, this guy up there won’t be pleased and he’ll smite you!” Therefore if we’d skipped the whole religon era (which has lasted a few thousand years) we could just get to the era we are moving into now which is “you can be moral without gods.”
Christianity did not create altruist teachings and altruism is not even required since “faith” is all that is required to be a Christian. The theory is that a Christian who has faith will automatically be morally good. From my experience this is not always the case but that’s another debate altogether.
The fact is, religion was intended originally as a way of dispensing morality and so I do not think our morality would be any different if religion had not existed.
To the question of whether I would change history the answer is no. If i changed history, I most probably would change it so much that it would result in me never existing which would mean I would never been able to change history in the first place which would create an almight paradox which the universe would not be able to cope with and would therefore implode in a puff of smoke. 
ahem.
[This message has been edited by ben (edited 16 December 2001).]
yes, that’s pretty true. i guess there’s the question of HOW it would be stopped - human nature would have to be changed entirely, to stop anyone in the future questioning their existence and arriving at the concept of a God. arguably we wouldn’t really be humans. i don’t know, i just thought it was an interesting question because theoretically speaking, it could save thousands and thousands of lives - i’m not just talking sept 11th, i’m talking generally. most likely humans would find something else to dispute anyway - in so many religious disputes, the wars they are having have become little to do with their faith anyway, and they are quite often going against the rules of their religion.
in answer to my own question - wahey! conversing with oneself! - i probably … would, but i think it’s pretty obvious that no-one could decide on what terms to do so.
and ben - the reason i targetted islam especially is because a) i dislike it - i’m not saying i hate every muslim in the world, don’t shoot me - i just dislike the fundamnetals of the religion. but mainly i picked it because arguably, it would mean that a certain recent event in the US would not have happened and i just wondered if that affected anyone’s views on the question.
going back in time in it’s self is extremely dangerous. just your presence would mean everything would be differnt. you would displace atoms that otherwise wouldn’t be displaced, they would hit other ones, etc etc till eventually everything is affected by your presence. also in travelling back there would be an increase in the weight of the universe. this is my own theory. as you are travelling back in time the atoms you are made from would already be there and in you being there aswell there would be an increase in the ammount of atoms, hell knows what this will do, but it could destroy the universe (or not). also destroying Islam might prevent 11/9, but whats to say the lack of Islam might not have stopped the Cuban Missile crsis so that 9/11 would never happen as the world would be a nuclear wasteground from 40 years previously.
Nicola with all due respect, and I do mean it with all due respect…ur talking rubbish. The fact that u can suggest that what happened on Sept 11 was a direct result of Islam is crazy and nonsensical. If u do feel that way then once again ur acting out of ignorance and not out of any clear factual knowledge of the religion. If ur talking about going back in time to avert the Sept 11 tragedy then here’s a start: How about going back to 1948/49 and NOT creating a state of Israel in the Mid East, which if it as suggested is Bin Laden, then that would have been his cause. That was the main reason for Sept 11 NOT Islam. Its as simple as that. You also seem to forget that just over 400 Muslims were killed in that TERRORIST attack.
In terms of aboloshing all religions I would have to say that religions have brought a lot of good in this world, they’ve brought with them cultures, sciences and philosophies, to imagine a world without religion is trying to imagine a world without God, I shudder at the thought !! 
“to imagine a world without religion is to imagine a world without God”
???
not really. there is a lot to be said for faith that is personal, individual, and comes from within rather than being imposed from outside.
organised religion can i think be used as an excuse not to consider the way we ought to act - it is very easy to accept a moral code presented to you by a religion and not have to bother about thinking for yourself.
The creation of the state of Israel is the root cause behind the attacks of Sept. 11th? I think you’ll find that Mr. Laden couldn’t give a flying about the situation of his ‘Palestinian brothers’ who ARE suffering in Israel. He has hijacked this cause in order to gain more recruits for his terrorist network. If he was so bothered about these people surely he would try and help them, has he not got enough money? He does not pressurise Arab countries to help Palestinians or to fight a legal battle for their sake. He is interested in one thing only and that is a power-trip. His cause is not religious since his religion condemns his behaviour. It is not related to Israel since he doesn’t care about the fate of the Palestinians. It is based on an irrational hatred of another culture and a desire for power. He originally began hating the Americans because of what they were doing in Saudi Arabia, nothing to do with Israel. And yet he was happy to use arms given to him by the Americans to fight against the Communists. What kind of principles are those? Also the fact that Muslims died in the atrocities has been treated illogically here - it does not remove blame from the Muslim fundamentalists involved and it does not heap the blame onto Israel either. I’m sure they would have been seen by Bin Laden as collateral damage.
About the original question. No I certainly wouldn’t remove Islam or any other religion. Their worth is obvious in the amount of direction they give to people’s lives.
[This message has been edited by alex (edited 17 December 2001).]
i said that “arguably” it would mean september 11th wouldn’t have happened… i wasn’t saying it was the direct cause necessarily, i was simply stating that hypothetically it could be seen that way. personally, i believe that islam is flawed beyond repair. yes, it has good points - so do all religions if you believe that they instil morality in their followers, etc. however, i personally think that the world could do without a religion that can so easily justify huge acts of violence - it can only make it easier to indoctrinate people all around the world who are already in a state of desperation due to the conflicts already occuring. if i had the power to do it, i probably wouldn’t “ban” islam right now, because it is a way of life for a lot of people, although if i could make it so it had never been started, yes, i probably would. i don’t mean to offend any of you because (i hope) you’re not terrorists, but that’s just my view.
I’m afraid I’m going to have to disagree with getting rid of Islam. For a start it produces good people like MusRep. Yes, he may hold the most controversial views on America and Israel but he is ALWAYS the one to give ungrudgingly to charity, to people in need, to offer to do things for others. Charity is a fundamental part (pillar) of Islam.
Why not go a level lower? Getting rid of Islam may have stopped some atrocities but that leaves a whole lot of others. Why not turn back time and stop all evil? Islam or any other religion is not the root of all evil. It is human greed and corruptability that produces evil in this world.
You want to stop September 11th? Change human nature.
removing islam would probably have stopped sept 11th, in the same way that removing the Republic of Ireland would have stopped the IRA’s bombing cmapaign, but what gives you the right to destroy something (islam) that has the same right to existence as anythingelse, just because of Sept 11th you cannot justify it’s destruction. afterall who invented concentration camps, the british, who has oppressed more people that any other nation around the world, the british.
i can’t say i agree with your last comment there macca, but i don’t think anyone can really pinpoint that anyway.
anyway i guess the point is, islam’s going to be around for a while whatever happens (so stick to the ground floor for a while, people, yeah? can’t be too careful)
sorry, that was insensitive. i apologise. and i repeat, when i started this post i wasn’t claiming some bizarre sort of time travel would stop terrorist attacks, i just wondered whether anyone would be tempted.
First things first, Ben thank you so much for those kind words and thank you so much for the Eid greetings.
Alex I must apologise, Israel is not the main rational behind the Sept 11 (according to Bin Laden) but I was looking at the wider picture. U ask any Muslim what they feel most strongly about and they will say Israel almost certainly. One of the reasons for the attack on America was because of Israel. I was just demonstrating to Nicola the huge difference we could make if we went back in time and that maybe its not religion we need to get rid of, how about instead we just turn back the clock to the 1970’s/80’s when Bin Laden was being trained and funded by the CIA, if America hadn’t done that maybe he might not have the capabilities he has today.
Back to you Alex again, I did not try and suggest that the fact that Muslims died excuses the Muslim TERRORISTS (fundadmentalist is a mis-uses/over used word since by definition all Muslim are fundamental) I was trying to draw a thick line between the TERRORISTS and the Muslims of this world which Nicola seems not to be seeing. Islam does not promote the killing of any innocent human being let alone a human being who is Muslim.
And a question to Nicola, Nicola if u knew ur comment was insensitive, unfunny, bigoted and extremely misled then why did u write it ?!
I would advise u to learn a bit more about Islam before u go about criticising it.
Just a comment: for you to criticise the fundamentals of Islam, Nicola, is to criticise faith, charity, peace, education and moderation. These are the things you would read about in the Koran. The organisers (OBL for one) of acts of terrorism which are apparently “justified” by Islam are striving(as Alex has pointed out) towards some sort of political objective. They take advantage of ill-educated peasants in countries as backward as Afghanistan; offering them a way out of poverty and teaching them some sort of Nazi militaristic interpretation of the Koran. They create their own brand of religion which would be better branded ‘ignorance’ or ‘political opportunism’ than Islam. Banning Islam would remove none of the ingredients which led to 11/09. Banning ignorance may, however, have stopped it even before it started.
whilst it is all too easy to be very ignorant if you are not religious (myself being a prime example, of course), i have to argue that religion in itself is, or at least breeds, ignorance. what easier way to be ignorant than through having been indoctrinated by some basically unfounded religious views, usually from birth? i chose islam to discuss because it is highly relevant at the moment … had i my way, i’d have no religion in the world, but as i’ve said before, i wouldn’t eliminate them from the world now if i had the power, because they are a way of life for many people.
i am not saying islam was the direct cause of 11/9. indeed, i appreciate that OBL is about as far from the perfect muslim as you can get. i am simply arguing that without the fervent islamic power that circulates around the middle east, it would be far harder for men like bin laden to a) find people to carry out the attacks and b) he would probably not have been able to carry them out without the blind eye that was turned by the islamic government.
To stick to the original question, no I wouldn’t. But what happened on Sept. 11th, in my mind, had not one thing to do with Islam. Not at all. But yeah, it is true that the attackers belief in the religion is what left the door opened for an attack of that scope, eliminating the Islamic influence from the equation wouldn’t solve it. What I think would happen is that it would make Osama Bin Laden and the rest of them a bit more creative.
are the dates in here screwed up ? or are the posts alive 2 years runnin ?!
The dates aren’t screwed up. Some are 2 years running. Others are threads that were foremerly dead and have been revived.
Qz …thanx for clearin that up for me …my next obvious question is if the author, nicola is still around ? it wouldn’t make sense to post if she’s not!
The Muslim Representative stated:
To take a major World event like 119 and try to pin it down to one people or religion results in a very narrow perspective. What about the 10 million dollars the US sends Israel a day? What about US oil interests? what about Israeli ‘incursions’ and ‘settlements’? (Orwellian double plus good duck speak for land theft). An event of this magnitude always has several leitmotifs and none of them should be ignored.