Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people?

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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:16 pm

I misspoke about love. I meant to say that there are mutual loved ones in my life.

The Bible and bagivad Gita make it very clear that we don’t own ourselves (only god owns).

I’d like to think we own ourselves.

Custodianship may be a fancy legal term for a possession, however, implicit in custodianship is the concept also of individual rights for the person under custody.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby fuse » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:31 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:A mother and father "own" their biological child, who is 3-years-old. The child is the property of the parents. The child is owned.


That's a strange use of the words "own" and "property". I should hope that's not how we would describe a healthy family, where parents raise and nurture their children to be healthy, independent people. This is quite unlike a person's relationship to, say, a book that they own. Is the difference in relationship not apparent?

Urwrongx1000 wrote:How can a child be "yours" if you don't own him/her?

How can a country be yours if you don't own it?
How can a street be yours if you don't own it?
How can a favorite color be yours if you don't own it?
How can my valentine "be mine" if I don't own people?
If you don't take ownership of your problems, how can they still be yours?

Perhaps the key to all these questions, is that there are senses of "having" something, or such strong identification with it, that we call it "ours" (it is related to us) in a sense quite unlike physical property. Perhaps we shouldn't reduce all sense of "my/own/ours" etc. to property ownership.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:41 am

This is the thread that keeps on giving and giving.

No, you're right Fuse. If somebody kidnaps your child, then it's okay, and it's not really "kidnapping", because you never owned them in the first place.

You got me.....?
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:43 am

Also I learned, in this thread, that you don't "own" something, or somebody, unless you can sell it.

That means you own one of your kidneys, which you can sell, on the black market, but not the other?

Very enlightening thread.


I didn't realize that so few humans in this world, actually own-themselves. You are not your own property? Whaaaaaaaaat???
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby fuse » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:47 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:This is the thread that keeps on giving and giving.

No, you're right Fuse. If somebody kidnaps your child, then it's okay, and it's not really "kidnapping", because you never owned them in the first place.

You got me.....?

Equivocation is critical thinking 101. There many senses in which feeling that something is yours, has nothing to do with property ownership.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby fuse » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:49 am

fuse wrote:
Urwrongx1000 wrote:How can a child be "yours" if you don't own him/her?

How can a country be yours if you don't own it?
How can a street be yours if you don't own it?
How can a favorite color be yours if you don't own it?
How can my valentine "be mine" if I don't own people?
If you don't take ownership of your problems, how can they still be yours?

Perhaps the key to all these questions, is that there are senses of "having" something, or such strong identification with it, that we call it "ours" (it is related to us) in a sense quite unlike physical property. Perhaps we shouldn't reduce all sense of "my/own/ours" etc. to property ownership.

Care to respond to this?
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:56 am

fuse wrote:There many senses in which feeling that something is yours, has nothing to do with property ownership.

fuse wrote:How can a country be yours if you don't own it?
How can a street be yours if you don't own it?

A country and street (neighborhood) is a collection of people and individuals. People can own a society, as they own themselves. You are beholden to your own kind. This is simple biology, shouldn't have to explain it to a bunch of grown adult "philosophers" on a philosophy forum. Even insects, ants for example, feel kinship and are beholden/loyal to one-another and "their own" colony. If you accept this fact, and you do, then how are you even making an argument or disagreement? How are you not contradicting yourself immediately? As-if ants follow one biological-rule, and humans are some kind of exception? Why and how?


fuse wrote:How can a favorite color be yours if you don't own it?

Owning colors is not the same as owning objects, property, self, etc. That's more metaphorical. Do you own the money in your bank account? Who knows, maybe not, according to this thread?

Give me all your money. It's mine, not yours. Disagree?? Then I guess you're not acting or speaking on principle?


fuse wrote:How can my valentine "be mine" if I don't own people?

Mating and copulation is an act of ownership, domination, and subjugation, yes. Woman submits to man, sexually, is dominated by him (penetrated).

What is the symbolism of poking your pecker into somebody and making babies??? Seriously, tell me.


fuse wrote:If you don't take ownership of your problems, how can they still be yours?

Welcome to Justice, Law, Order, Morality. This is the basic question. People blame and assign (ownership) of problems upon each other daily. Democrats vs Republics, Left vs Right, Liberal vs Conservative, everyday.


fuse wrote:Perhaps the key to all these questions, is that there are senses of "having" something, or such strong identification with it, that we call it "ours" (it is related to us) in a sense quite unlike physical property. Perhaps we shouldn't reduce all sense of "my/own/ours" etc. to property ownership.

As-if there is some alternative? You tell me.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Ecmandu » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:35 am

As far as people are concerned (which was the OP of this thread)

People have costodianship. Guardianship.

These definitions imply that there are innate rights to those who are custodied and guarded.

That’s not ownership in the sense of slavery, actually, it’s not ownership at all.

Thus you are refuted.

Make a new thread that deals with objects (like a lamp) and then we can have a slightly interesting discussion.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby fuse » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:02 am

Urwrongx100 wrote:A country and street (neighborhood) is a collection of people and individuals. People can own a society, as they own themselves.

But in fact, you don't own the country you live in in the same sense as owning a house, yet you still call it yours.

Urwrongx100 wrote:You are beholden to your own kind.

This means what exactly in a country of millions or billions of people? That you own them all as your property?

Urwrongx100 wrote:This is simple biology, shouldn't have to explain it to a bunch of grown adult "philosophers" on a philosophy forum.

Ah, yes.. why explain your thinking to someone in a discussion.

Urwrongx100 wrote:Owning colors is not the same as owning objects, property, self, etc. That's more metaphorical.

Great. So we agree that there are different senses of the word ownership.

It's not worth my time to explain how being parent to a child is a substantially and qualitatively different relationship than being owner of a book, but if we at least agree that there are different senses of ownership then I'll leave you to sort out what the difference could be. If your prefer to think it impossible that there could be any difference, so be it.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:52 am

fuse wrote:But in fact, you don't own the country you live in in the same sense as owning a house, yet you still call it yours.

Incorrect, building a country is the same as building a house.


fuse wrote:Great. So we agree that there are different senses of the word ownership.

It's not worth my time to explain how being parent to a child is a substantially and qualitatively different relationship than being owner of a book, but if we at least agree that there are different senses of ownership then I'll leave you to sort out what the difference could be. If your prefer to think it impossible that there could be any difference, so be it.

Are you implying, here, that there is less ownership between mother and child, than there is person and book?

Very interesting! Explain more!

I love this thread!
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby MagsJ » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:03 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Also I learned, in this thread, that you don't "own" something, or somebody, unless you can sell it.

Um, that would be me.. :D

That means you own one of your kidneys, which you can sell, on the black market, but not the other?

Very enlightening thread.

One’s kidney is indeed their’s, and so is the other.. I wouldn’t recommend selling both though..

I didn't realize that so few humans in this world, actually own-themselves. You are not your own property? Whaaaaaaaaat???

I do think it hot (for want of a better word) that a couple desire to own each other, indicating exclusivity.. I did say as much in the Comedy thread here, in relation to an online game called Pets, where members can buy each other and pay to set themselves free. I still prefer the word ‘belonging‘ though.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:05 am

I think Ownership has more to do with what you are completely unwilling to sell. Things which are priceless.

Like your own children.

Nature and Life is not absolute. Many children are 'sold', down the river.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:12 am

Consider how many children are 'given' over to political agendas... Abortion, these new riots, protests, anti-life and anti-american movements.

Think of how many children are 'given' over to God, to religion, to Islam, Judaism, Christianity, etc.

How can children be 'given' over, unless they are somebody else's to give?


"Westerners" want to make-believe, Pretend, childish-fantasy-land, that "people don't own each-other", but they do. And because they do, it's causing a misconception, a Grand Lie, where even adults on this forum, here, philosophically, cannot answer, or claim not to understand, basic concepts of Ownership, specifically, that a person does not own Him/Herself.

How can you own your book, your kidney, your things which you "can sell", if you don't own yourself first?

Maybe, in order to be a Perfect Victim, completely Non-responsible for anything or anybody, you have to "give yourself up". Maybe people do not own themselves.

Maybe people have already been 'sacrificed' to some other cause? Like a soldier in war, your life is not "your own"?
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby MagsJ » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:14 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:I think Ownership has more to do with what you are completely unwilling to sell. Things which are priceless.

Like your own children.

Nature and Life is not absolute. Many children are 'sold', down the river.

That’s one way of looking at it, from that perspective, of an unwillingness to depart with that which is dearest to the heart.. there are plenty who misuse the ownership of their children though, and place them in the most precarious of situations, so humans always naturally owning their children doesn’t always work out, for the child.

You ever seen when a female, attempts to bond with another female’s baby? that’s really crossing a line.. unless you’re family, and even then, there are limits.

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Consider how many children are 'given' over to political agendas... Abortion, these new riots, protests, anti-life and anti-american movements.

Think of how many children are 'given' over to God, to religion, to Islam, Judaism, Christianity, etc.

How can children be 'given' over, unless they are somebody else's to give?

Giving children over to the negative and harmful aspects of society is never great nor good, but the aspect of study and worship is.. as opposed to ignorance and inquisitions.

"Westerners" want to make-believe, Pretend, childish-fantasy-land, that "people don't own each-other", but they do. And because they do, it's causing a misconception, a Grand Lie, where even adults on this forum, here, philosophically, cannot answer, or claim not to understand, basic concepts of Ownership, specifically, that a person does not own Him/Herself.

How can you own your book, your kidney, your things which you "can sell", if you don't own yourself first?

Perhaps having never felt owned, "Westerners" and some other “Nations” do not harbour the concept and feeling of ownership, making it alien to us, as a notion.. unless we individually want it to be so, towards those that we are enamoured of and by.

Maybe, in order to be a Perfect Victim, completely Non-responsible for anything or anybody, you have to "give yourself up". Maybe people do not own themselves.

Maybe people have already been 'sacrificed' to some other cause? Like a soldier in war, your life is not "your own"?

We do give ourselves up.. to nature, to our whims, to our ideals.. they are ours, without having to say so, just as children are to their parents.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:48 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Consider how many children are 'given' over to political agendas... Abortion, these new riots, protests, anti-life and anti-american movements.

Think of how many children are 'given' over to God, to religion, to Islam, Judaism, Christianity, etc.

How can children be 'given' over, unless they are somebody else's to give?


"Westerners" want to make-believe, Pretend, childish-fantasy-land, that "people don't own each-other", but they do. And because they do, it's causing a misconception, a Grand Lie, where even adults on this forum, here, philosophically, cannot answer, or claim not to understand, basic concepts of Ownership, specifically, that a person does not own Him/Herself.

How can you own your book, your kidney, your things which you "can sell", if you don't own yourself first?

Maybe, in order to be a Perfect Victim, completely Non-responsible for anything or anybody, you have to "give yourself up". Maybe people do not own themselves.

Maybe people have already been 'sacrificed' to some other cause? Like a soldier in war, your life is not "your own"?

Yes but we didn't create ourselves entirely by ourselves - lets say the mother owns a portion of you originally because of the labour she did.
Self-ownership is thus generally approached as an ideal rather than as a given, and as such it works to inspire capitalism.
Interesting combination is capitalism and monotheism; self-ownership and giving oneself away to god under one umbrella. Protestantism is a natural result.
Beyond that, Liberty was invented as self-ownership including experience in the spiritual domain. Under the god Liberty, magic can be practiced without master; and I think it requires actual magic to truly possess oneself.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:37 am

I believe that few people truly want Independence, which is the path to self-ownership.

Most people enjoy to be coddled, and adult-children, from birth to gravestone.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby MagsJ » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:05 pm

What does an Independent self-owned individual look like, on paper, to you? I’m thinking.. nomadic, Berber-esque types, but I don’t think you mean that type at all.

How do you go about owning yourself Urwrong? Do you say/think to yourself ‘own you baby, own you’? as opposed to ‘own it’? :)
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby promethean75 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:23 pm

It is morally justified to pwn someone, but not, certainly not, to own someone.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:38 am

Ownership is directly linked to sense-of-self, self-identity, morality, responsibility, and causality. If you do not, cannot, or will not think of yourself as an "agent of causality", then you cannot "own" yourself either. And, as it appears, many people do not in fact "own" themselves. Rather, as I mentioned, people are Owned, not Owners. Race doesn't matter, although it is part of the equation. Nor does gender. People are 'owed' to forces, or people, 'higher' than themselves. You can use God and religion as primary examples.

"Your life is not your own." Is it? Yes? No? How do you go about 'gaining' ownership of yourself, except, to liberate yourself from those you are owned by? Owed to?

Obligated to.


Do you not owe your life to your biological parents?

As to "gaining ownership via independence", Independence means something different for everybody, and with accordance to time, culture, setting, society, etc. Independence refers to Freedom. Can you live "outside" the system? Can you live within it? Some people can do both, some can do neither.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby MagsJ » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:17 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:People are 'owed' to forces, or people, 'higher' than themselves. You can use God and religion as primary examples.

Be like the wind.. set yourself free.. even from yourself.

"Your life is not your own." Is it? Yes? No? How do you go about 'gaining' ownership of yourself, except, to liberate yourself from those you are owned by? Owed to?

Obligated to.

Owned by? Owed to? Sounds like cattle and arranged marriages, if you ask me.. things that aren’t applicable to many.

Having obligations is par for the course, on our journey to fulfilling our goals and aims.. but obligated to objectives not to other people.

Do you not owe your life to your biological parents?

Sure.. but I weren’t best-pleased about all the chores there were to do.

As to "gaining ownership via independence", Independence means something different for everybody, and with accordance to time, culture, setting, society, etc. Independence refers to Freedom. Can you live "outside" the system? Can you live within it? Some people can do both, some can do neither.

That’s very subjective, and would be dependent on many factors, but yes.. some could do one, the other, both, or neither. I’d say that the majority of people live as free as is possible, within the security of the confines of the State that they reside in.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:18 am

So you admit your life is owed-to, by your biological parents, as-is everybody else ever born...

But you, and everybody else, also doesn't like the thought of "being owned".

It doesn't change the fact.


Parents own their biological children. You are the 'property' of your mother, before and after your birth, curdled in the womb. If you deny this, as is the trend of this thread and conversation, then you must also concede the notion that, you do not "own yourself", nor does a pregnant woman "own" the child in her womb. Not her property. Your self, is not your property.

So whose is it?

Another possibility: most people don't know that they are 'owned', or, who owns them.


A nation issues a draft for war. You are called to war. Can you deny it? Can you resist? What will happen? Does your nation, own you? Do you have "human rights", without your nation?


Consider these questions rhetorical, because I fear I already know the answers.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:50 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
How can a child be "yours" if you don't own him/her?

Do I own my father? Do children own their parents?
Do I own my enemy? my boss?
Do I own my neighbor? my co-workers? (do they own me since I am their coworker?)
Do I own my ex-wife? (does she own me, her ex-husband?
Does your spouse own you since you are her ex-husband?
Do you own your doctor? Or does she own you since you are HER patient?

I mean, jeez, an entire thread based on equivocation.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:00 pm

And here you are, equivocating that people do *NOT* own themselves, and parents do *NOT* own their biological children.

Don't blame me for your lack of philosophy. You *COULD* answer simple questions. But you choose not to. Because you know the answers and their consequences.


Just admit it already, you believe that you own yourself, but in doing so, you admit Responsibility, and hence, admit Morality.

You admit that people are beholden to each other, responsible for each other. Maybe there are areas in your own life that you don't want to uncover, through the course of dialogue here.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:14 pm

I just had the weirdest experience: I went down to MY bank and told them I owned it and wanted to sell.
They seemed ignorant of the power of certain possessive pronouns.
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Re: Why is it Okay and Morally Justified to Own other people

Postby MagsJ » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:04 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Consider these questions rhetorical, because I fear I already know the answers.

Lol :)

Our life being owed to our parents, does not mean they own us.

They and we belong to each other, in an exclusive symbiotic relationship of responsibility and dependency, respectively.

Human Rights are maintained by our State/our Nation, in relation to the individual or Nation against the world at large, for whom drafting-up should be voluntary.. but hopefully an unnecessary endeavour to ever have to undertake.

Do Nations own citizens? Like I’ve said before.. I’ve never felt owned, apart from by the (mandatory) education system here, after which head-hunting and other such tactics could be a type of laying claim to people, ergo an attempt at ‘ownership’.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ


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