Realism vs. Idealism

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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Aegean » Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:41 pm

Second line of defence.
"Now look what I reduced him to"

This, too, is part of its training.
To even pay attention to it, is a victory for it.
It's learned a technique, like all nihilists, and they will never abandon it.
The positive nihilists requires some creativity to fabricate alternate realities and justify them with romantic poetics and mystical allegories....too much work for the pure nihilists. They can simply negate - knowing there is no absolute - and then ridicule - cynicism.

What is the power of the nil founded on?
The absence of absolutes.
No indivisible, immutable, whole - no omniscience, no omnipotence - ergo no absolute certainty.
This is the source of their remarkable powers of negation. Since nothing is perfect, all can be rejected.
Now it becomes a matter of subjective preference.
What feels good.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby promethean75 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:42 pm

i guess my only problem with the cast was that 'ren' looked too much like roger waters, and for some reason i didn't like that. i felt like he didn't have the right look to be the villain. i understand that in the end he came back from the darkside so technically he wasn't a bad guy. but still they picked the wrong dude for 'ren'. i'm sure of it.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:46 pm

σάτυρος wrote:Second line of defence.
"Now look what I reduced him to"

This, too, is part of its training.
To even pay attention to it, is a victory for it.
It's learned a technique, like all nihilists, and they will never abandon it.
The positive nihilists requires some creativity to fabricate alternate realities and justify them with romantic poetics and mystical allegories....too much work for the pure nihilists. They can simply negate - knowing there is no absolute - and then ridicule - cynicism.

What is the power of the nil founded on?
The absence of absolutes.
No indivisible, immutable, whole - no omniscience, no omnipotence - ergo no absolute certainty.
This is the source of their remarkable powers of negation. Since nothing is perfect, all can be rejected.
Now it becomes a matter of subjective preference.
What feels good.


I challenge -- dare? -- anyone to reconfigure intellectual gibberish of this sort into a context in which actual human behaviors can be discussed in terms of either realism or idealism.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Aegean » Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:10 pm

This is typical of zombification.
There's a video of a wild moose infected by some sort of brain parasite, but the most common is of those ants that are infected and begin to behave in strange ways - eventually dying.
you can find videos of the process on-line. It's quite fascinating.
From genes to memes.
When I used the term meme-parasite I was speaking of the ideological version of this life form.
This specimen is evidence of what I was speaking about.
It was infected during its youth, by Abrahamism - probably the Christian variant - then it morphed into Marxism, which is typical because of the commonalities, and then it morphed into post-modernism, the latest variant.
Crypto-Marxism.

Whoever doesn't know what post-modernism means there's a wonderful lecture by Stephen Hicks on the subject.
Watch it on YouTube.
This specimen exhibits all the symptoms. It's as if Hicks is describing it, specifically. Uncanny.

Zombification of the parasite-meme.
The meme is selfish. All it cares to do is propagate itself.
In this case its ruse is that it is "trapped in a cognitive hole"
A trap.
It doesn't want to be pulled out, but to pull the world into its hole - entirely taken over by the parasite-meme.
It wants to spread doubt, negativity, nihilism. It wants to pull the world down with it.
Nothing you tell it will work...as most have already realized. It is dead from the neck up ….its brain turned to mush.
Like those proverbial movie zombies, it is motivated by pure hunger - metaphor for need...but the real motive is of the meme which wants to spread to other brains and turn them into mush, as part of its reproductive cycle.
Selfish-gene - Selfish-meme.
Zombification = gradual detachment from reality - through linguistics - semiotics.

Like I said...this is entirely abstract because it is linguistic.
Hard to prove if not for these volunteering specimens.
The specimen itself is evidence of what I am describing. A zombified individual, detaching form reality, suing semiotics, and desperate to spread tis own confusion and nihilism, to other minds.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby promethean75 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:15 pm

I challenge -- dare? -- anyone to reconfigure intellectual gibberish of this sort into a context in which actual human behaviors can be discussed in terms of either realism or idealism.


here's the thing, dude. it is in the very nature of philosophy to work like this. you have to understand that to him, none of this is jibberish, because it is built off a system of propositions and premises which seem to him to be reasonable. the beauty of philosophy is that such propositions, premises and axioms of thought don't have to be the slightest bit indicative of the truth or the facts in order to be coherent, comprehensive and supplemental of certainty.

you have to understand that most philosophy doesn't come into contact with the real world... i mean doesn't 'read from it' the statements it configures about it. instead it 'imposes' them onto the world, and their strength doesn't depend on any empirical verification, but rather the veracity of their supporting arguments. so in his head, everything he says is true because it follows from others things he's said which he believes are true. in this sense it isn't 'gibberish' because it corresponds to prior propositions which make his conclusions logically valid and sound.

but being logically valid and sound does not necessarily mean a statement is actually representational of something in or about the world. this is why philosophers make great chefs. you can't tell me some of the word salads you've eaten here weren't absolutely delicious.

okay think of chess. a game which works according to a set of rules. in the game we say that it follows logically that this bishop can move to g3 and take the pawn... but in the real world, bishops don't move to g3 and take pawns. in the same way, a philosophical language game operates according to its own internally generated rules, and need not be 'about' anything that can happen in the real world to make sense.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:01 pm

σάτυρος wrote:Like I said...this is entirely abstract because it is linguistic.
Hard to prove if not for these volunteering specimens.
The specimen itself is evidence of what I am describing. A zombified individual, detaching form reality, suing semiotics, and desperate to spread tis own confusion and nihilism, to other minds.


That he can say this --- actually even believe it! --- is nothing short of breathtaking.

Unless, of course, he is only being ironic.

How can someone with his tongue not buried down deep in his cheek...someone who stays up in the stratosphere of intellectual contraptions in post after post after post...argue that my point is "entirely abstract"? When, again, back to the irony, my whole effort here revolves around pushing him into bringing his own entirely abstract points [like the one above] down to earth.

Again, I challenge someone to note instances when he does in fact attach his words to the world -- the reality -- that we live in.

He's got to be putting us on. No one could be that far removed from understanding how his own accusations are applicable more to himself than to folks like me. Either that or there is something seriously wrong with his thought processing.

Well, anyway, so it seems to me.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:03 pm

promethean75 wrote:
here's the thing, dude. it is in the very nature of philosophy to work like this. you have to understand that to him, none of this is jibberish, because it is built off a system of propositions and premises which seem to him to be reasonable. the beauty of philosophy is that such propositions, premises and axioms of thought don't have to be the slightest bit indicative of the truth or the facts in order to be coherent, comprehensive and supplemental of certainty.


Yes, no doubt about it, that too.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Del Ivers » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:11 pm

Reality is an idealistic concept. It all depends from which level one assesses it. Thus the confusing attempts by humankind at synchronization, more specifically, synthesis. Synthesis - as an evolutionary component - is imperious to attributions and ascriptions, other than its own. It allows the witness (humankind) to label, define, embellish, criticize, and express whatever psycho-linguistic flatulence the witness deems amenable. The allowance is a courtesy, it is even shown to subordinate deities and wannabe archons. It plays no favorites. It notes the discerning, and recycles the rest.

By the way,: "May your gods be kind to you."

Thank you, my gods are kind to me, but they can be strict instructors when they feel like it. I remember a long time ago I was recuperating from an illness. I stood steadfast and prevailed, I became healthier. Then one evening I heard a whimper from somewhere, then crying, then a sobbing, then screams of agony. It was as if I was high above in the stratosphere and I could hear all the wailings of whichever degree around the world. This was going on every day, had been for millennia. In my mind I said to myself that this was appalling, insane. Then a voice from somewhere, not mine, said: "Now you know what we're dealing with." The voice wasn't dramatic about it, it was matter-of-fact, like someone at a job letting you know the routine and the hazards. The noise disappeared. I just sat there quietly for awhile thereafter. If ever there was a job of cleaning stables . . . I am thankful for the experience of witnessing such. And though I have not forgotten, I am also thankful for the merciful quietude of the present.

But I digress . . .

____

Hey, how did it feel to play the prodigal Santa? :)

Ελέγξτε το email σας αύριο

D.

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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Aegean » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:50 pm

Man can only interpret reality, which is independent from his interpretation.
Like an artist can paint a tree, as accurately as he can.
The interpretation is the noumenon, that abstraction in his mind.

Idealists confuse their own interpretations, for the real. They take them literally.
Like an artist who convinces himself that his painting of a tree is the tree.
His noumena usurp the phenomenon which is then decaled to be illusory, and his interpretation as the only real tree - therefore all is interpretation, and there is no real tree.

The realist believes there is a tree, independent from his awareness and interpretation of it, and is motivated to understand it as best he can - to be an objective as possible.
The idealist is concept with his own interpretation, and may claim it is better than any other, but that all is, in the end, interpretation because there is no real world, and therefore no real tree.
For the realist meaning is how the real phenomena inter-relate and inter-acts, and that this is independent from his own awareness of this.
The idealist may believe that he is the creator of meaning, because he can choose what and how and to what degree inter-relates and inter-acts. His noumena, usurp and produce the phenomena.
depending on how idealistic, ro nihilistic, he is.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Aegean » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:53 pm

Hey, how did it feel to play the prodigal Santa?

Ελέγξτε το email σας αύριο
Γιατί? Ποια είσαι?
Όχι στον πληθυντικό.

He, as I, are not Christians, but consider the holidays an opportunity to change our routines and to reaffirm family and friends.
I give him gifts when I find something I think he may want or like, not because I must. This year he got something practical. I usually give him money, because he never wants gifts.
He's amassed quite an amount over the years.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Aegean » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:00 pm

Del Ivers wrote:Reality is an idealistic concept.]
Yes. There two levels of interpretation in the process.
first, when the stimuli reaches the sense organ and is interpreted into a form the body can process - a neural pulse. then, in the brain, when neural pulses are gathered and integrated into abstractions, sensations, emotions...

The return back to action follows a similar path.
Emotion, sensation, abstractions is converted to neural pulse and sent to the limbs, muscles, where they are converted to actions.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Aegean » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:10 pm

If you know my metaphysical positions - which you probably do - then you already know that my understanding of reality is as energy [εν-εργο] inter-activity - some patterned (ordered) some random (chaotic).
Man interprets this, to construct, ni his mind, his representation of reality.

An idealist believes that reality does not exist other than his own interpretations - subjectivity. No objective reality.
He, therefore, competes over which one offers the most benefits, not which one is closes to the objective. He makes philosophy into politics and marketing, selling their own version as more promising, positive - using the same techniques used in politics and marketing.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Del Ivers » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:15 pm

Aegean wrote:Γιατί? Ποια είσαι?

Ντάνιελ. Παλαιότερα, τα Spaces. 8)
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Aegean » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:54 pm

Θα φύγω από εδώ, αύριο.
Ξέρεις που θα με βρεις?
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Aegean » Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:01 pm

Just as a degenerate seeks the source of his pain and suffering, of his errors, in other, so too does he seek the source of a paradox, of a dissonance, of a irony, in the other.
That it may be a product of his own understanding, alludes him.
He always projects the possibility upon other, when the consequence is negative; and only begins with self when it is positive.

So, when the other says something that contradicts his own understanding of him, he does not question his understanding, but finds the other guilty of a contradiction.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby promethean75 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:12 pm

Θα φύγω από εδώ, αύριο.
Ξέρεις που θα με βρεις?


Ugiriki ni wakati, ndio mahali, ndio mwendo. Sasa Ugiriki ndio njia tunayohisi.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby promethean75 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:29 pm

Just as a degenerate seeks the source of his pain and suffering, of his errors, in other, so too does he seek the source of a paradox, of a dissonance, of a irony, in the other.
That it may be a product of his own understanding, alludes him.
He always projects the possibility upon other, when the consequence is negative; and only begins with self when it is positive.

So, when the other says something that contradicts his own understanding of him, he does not question his understanding, but finds the other guilty of a contradiction


So forum members engaged in battle should never play that card, and I'll tell ya why. The other guy is saying the same thing about you, see, and you should want to attack in a way that gives him no chance of that reposte.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Del Ivers » Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:26 am

Aegean wrote:Θα φύγω από εδώ, αύριο.
Ξέρεις που θα με βρεις?


Yes. I just listen carefully for the sound of whispers amid columns of marble. :|
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Del Ivers » Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:31 am

promethean75 wrote:Ugiriki ni wakati, ndio mahali, ndio mwendo. Sasa Ugiriki ndio njia tunayohisi.

Kwa wale ambao wamezikwa kwa nguvu ya zamani, labda. Kwa wengine, jinsi sisi - watu wa ulimwengu - tunavyohisi. Haijalishi wanahistoria sawa wenye kukata tamaa wanaweza kututaka tufikirie.

Swahili, Prom? When I think back on my brief time on ILP, I will remember you. :D
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby promethean75 » Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:36 am

Yes, I speak approximately 67 languages fluently...










... with a translator.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Berkley Babes » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:14 am

The original post fails to mention that idealism is about not knowing other minds. It starts there. And is enough, really.

Also, idealism is about ideas, having them in general, not ideals or how things should be. There is a difference.

When you hear someone say "that person is idealistic" that is not the same thing believing in idealism. Believing is then not the same as behavior based on such a belief.

Lastly, trying to prove points about idealism to another mind is more about loneliness that philosophy. :-"

I don't believe in Idealism, but I do have a preference for it.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Aegean » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:07 pm

Evidence that Abrahamism has not died, nor has its monistic monotheism perished:
There are still minds, out there, who believe in benevolent, well-meaning, entities who are persecuted and their gifts and offerings wrongly rejected; entities that are crucified, though they mean well and offer salvation from worldly tyranny.
Naivete and stupidity never vanishes.
There will always be masses of degenerates, desperate for the reincarnation of the old myths.
They have never left us. They were baptized and renamed. Updated.

Realism can never compete with Idealism.
Not among the majority, who need a plausible lie to surrender to.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby phoneutria » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:28 pm

promethean75 wrote:
Θα φύγω από εδώ, αύριο.
Ξέρεις που θα με βρεις?


Ugiriki ni wakati, ndio mahali, ndio mwendo. Sasa Ugiriki ndio njia tunayohisi.


aren't you glad I am here to appreciate your brilliant humor?
it's a pun, it's a pop reference, its... in swahili.
they think our love is just a growing pain, why don't they understand, man.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby Aegean » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:34 pm

Thank the gods for google.
Even a dolt can appear to be a genius, with a few clicks and clacks.
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Re: Realism vs. Idealism

Postby phoneutria » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:36 pm

takes much less work to understand a joke than to create it
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