Message to all subjectivists!

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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:17 pm

phyllo wrote:
If objective is the same as intersubjective then we dont need both words

Objective is anything that is entirely free from subjective interpretation
Intersubjective is subjective consensus that is considered to be objective

These definitions actually contradict each other and so obviously they cannot be the same
No degree of intersubjectivity no matter how rigorous it actually is can be truly objective

Intersubjectivity is part of the scientific method but science is inductive not deductive so it does not actually deal in objectivity
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby phyllo » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:20 pm

no it doesn't, and no we shouldn't. first off, nothing reveals 'platonic forms' because there's no such thing.
So you (and somebody else?) have an intersubjective belief that that there are no platonic forms and Ecmandu(and somebody else?) has an intersubjective belief that there are platonic forms.

What happens next?
intersubjective would involve many, but not all, subjects.
How many subjects?
but believing in something doesn't make it 'true', and 'objective truth' isn't a property of a thing, but a property of a statement. so to say 'this statement is objectively true' would mean 'everyone able to comprehend it wouldn't say it was false.'
What is that "property of a statement"? What's the difference between true statement and false statement?
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby iambiguous » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:41 pm

phyllo wrote:
no it doesn't, and no we shouldn't. first off, nothing reveals 'platonic forms' because there's no such thing.
So you (and somebody else?) have an intersubjective belief that that there are no platonic forms and Ecmandu(and somebody else?) has an intersubjective belief that there are platonic forms.

What happens next?
intersubjective would involve many, but not all, subjects.
How many subjects?
but believing in something doesn't make it 'true', and 'objective truth' isn't a property of a thing, but a property of a statement. so to say 'this statement is objectively true' would mean 'everyone able to comprehend it wouldn't say it was false.'
What is that "property of a statement"? What's the difference between true statement and false statement?


From my frame of mind, exchanges of this sort -- intellectual contraptions in conflict -- can only be taken out into the world we live and interact in and, in a particular context, words like "subjective", "intersubjective" and "objective" are broached, discussed and assessed in regard to actual things and to the actual relationships between them.

What can we all agree on as being true? What is true for some but not for all? What is true only for one but not for anyone else?

Then assuming we have some capacity to draw conclusions here autonomously, and acknowledging that any conclusions we derive from particular sets of premises are embedded in the gap between what we think we know and all that can be known going back to a complete understanding of existence itself, we do the best we can to create and then sustain the least dysfunctional community.

Based on one or another practical combination of might makes right, right makes might and democracy and the rule of law.

Hope that helped.
Objectivists: Like shooting fish in a barrel!

He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:49 pm

Iambiguous,

You're softening. I'm impressed. Less arrogance.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby promethean75 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:54 pm

So you (and somebody else?) have an intersubjective belief that that there are no platonic forms and Ecmandu(and somebody else?) has an intersubjective belief that there are platonic forms.

What happens next?


my team presents the onus probandi and stands at the ready to attack the argumentum ad ignorantiam that always follows. nuthin to it but to do it.

How many subjects?


more than one, less than all.

What is that "property of a statement"? What's the difference between true statement and false statement?


why are you asking these wonderful questions now when i'm totally burned out? where were you like five months ago when i had my second wind? listen, you're gonna have to get with faust on that one. he's around here somewhere. but he probably won't bother with it either.

because that single question opens a can of worms too big to be handled by a single mortal man. whole schools have been built around a variety of answers to that one seemingly simple question. and let me tell you; it ain't simple.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby promethean75 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:11 pm

so biggs is saying that even if we could agree on what is true, we still might only be determined to do so... and even if we did do so of our own free volition, it doesn't matter because we're all dead meat in the end, anyway.

this is so beautiful and honest i shall almost weep before it. i haven't heard a philosopher tell a truth like this since i last talked to a nihilist. we need more nihilists. the fearless ones who speak the troof.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby phyllo » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:20 pm

From my frame of mind, exchanges of this sort -- intellectual contraptions in conflict -- can only be taken out into the world we live and interact in and, in a particular context, words like "subjective", "intersubjective" and "objective" are broached, discussed and assessed in regard to actual things and to the actual relationships between them.
Sure. We create words like 'objective' and 'subjective' because they are useful to describe stuff that we find in the world. And their continued usefulness is tested by taking them out into the world.

What can we all agree on as being true? What is true for some but not for all? What is true only for one but not for anyone else?

I don't think the requirement of "all agree on as being true" is of any practical value.

Through lack of knowledge, deceit, misunderstanding or miscommunication, some people are always going to disagree on even the most clear truth. To say that 6x7=42 is only subjective or intersubjective, because there are some people who think that it's 43 (or they are not sure about the result of the multiplication), seems absurd.

I would characterize subjective and objective in this way:

If you say that "you like chocolate ice cream" then I would call that a subjective truth because I have no way to show/know it to be false. It's a truth which is purely dependent on one subject.

If you say that "chocolate ice cream is the flavor consumed the most(by volume) annually in North America", then I would call that an objective truth. It can be confirmed to be either true or false. And the truth or falseness is independent of you and your beliefs. It's not just something that you think or feel.

I don't find the word 'intersubjective' to be useful in any way.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Aegean » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:48 pm

When we speak of strength or power, we do not mean omnipotence.
When we speak of knowledge and understanding, we do not mean omniscience.

Therefore, when we speak of objectivity we do no mean an absolute, but a degree of subjectivity that approaches the indifference of the object, in this case the world, or reality.

We can also transfer this to free-will and say that freedom is not absolute, but a degree, manifested through choice in relation to options.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:49 pm

Aegean wrote:When we speak of strength or power, we do not mean omnipotence.
When we speak of knowledge and understanding, we do not mean omniscience.

Therefore, when we speak of objectivity we do no mean an absolute, but a degree of subjectivity that approaches the indifference of the object, in this case the world, or reality.

We can also transfer this to free-will and say that freedom is not absolute, but a degree, manifested through choice in relation to options.


I like this post.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:52 pm

promethean75 wrote:so biggs is saying that even if we could agree on what is true, we still might only be determined to do so... and even if we did do so of our own free volition, it doesn't matter because we're all dead meat in the end, anyway.

this is so beautiful and honest i shall almost weep before it. i haven't heard a philosopher tell a truth like this since i last talked to a nihilist. we need more nihilists. the fearless ones who speak the troof.


We're determined to do so because eternal forms are part of existence. Is this a bad thing? Nobody in their right mind would say that violating their consent is OK. Partly because of ignorance (they've had easy lives) and don't understand what they're saying.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:58 pm


It is better to think of subjectivity and objectivity as points on a spectrum rather than as two binaries
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Aegean » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:05 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
It is better to think of subjectivity and objectivity as points on a spectrum rather than as two binaries
Or, to think of objectivity as a degree of subjectivity approaching the objective.
Just as when we speak of power, we mean a degree of weakness approaching the ideal of omnipotence.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby phyllo » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:11 pm

Aegean wrote:
surreptitious75 wrote:
It is better to think of subjectivity and objectivity as points on a spectrum rather than as two binaries
Or, to think of objectivity as a degree of subjectivity approaching the objective.
Just as when we speak of power, we mean a degree of weakness approaching the ideal of omnipotence.
But without well established definitions and boundaries, some people start calling "objective facts", "subjective opinions". And vice versa.

That's becoming the dominant nature of discussions.
Last edited by phyllo on Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:11 pm

surreptitious75 wrote:
It is better to think of subjectivity and objectivity as points on a spectrum rather than as two binaries


Even though nobody wants their consent violated, people will always opt for challenges… they just want it on their own terms. They STILL don't want their consent violated!! This IS BINARY. Every being born, from the moment they start to exist, are subjects to this eternal form… the only reason it happens to every being is because it's a transcendent truth (eternal and unchanging)
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Aegean » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:16 pm

phyllo wrote:
Aegean wrote:
surreptitious75 wrote:
It is better to think of subjectivity and objectivity as points on a spectrum rather than as two binaries
Or, to think of objectivity as a degree of subjectivity approaching the objective.
Just as when we speak of power, we mean a degree of weakness approaching the ideal of omnipotence.
But without well established definitions and boundaries, some people start calling "objective facts", "subjective opinions". And vice versa.

That's becoming the dominant nature of discussions.
In which case, we determine degree of objectivity either through application, and how our expectations match the consequences; or by comparing perspectives to a shared reality.
Like comparing two maps to a geography.
Last edited by Aegean on Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby iambiguous » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:20 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Iambiguous,

You're softening. I'm impressed. Less arrogance.


Nope, nothing to do with being soft or hard. Nothing to do with being humble or arrogant.

It's all about taking what you think is true as a "subject" out into a particular world and, in particular contexts, interacting with others. In other words, figuring out ways that, for all practical purposes, allow you to live together with the least dysfunction.

Well, given the extent to which you are able to convince yourselves that some things seem true for all and some things do not. Then it all comes down to real world interactions embedded in the actual enforcement of behaviors legally and politically re might makes right, right makes might and/or moderation, negotiation and compromise superstructures.

In what I presume to be a No God world. And given the manner in which I have come to understand and intertwine all this [as an existential contraption] in my signature threads.
Objectivists: Like shooting fish in a barrel!

He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:33 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Iambiguous,

You're softening. I'm impressed. Less arrogance.


Nope, nothing to do with being soft or hard. Nothing to do with being humble or arrogant.

It's all about taking what you think is true as a "subject" out into a particular world and, in particular contexts, interacting with others. In other words, figuring out ways that, for all practical purposes, allow you to live together with the least dysfunction.

Well, given the extent to which you are able to convince yourselves that some things seem true for all and some things do not. Then it all comes down to real world interactions embedded in the actual enforcement of behaviors legally and politically re might makes right, right makes might and/or moderation, negotiation and compromise superstructures.

In what I presume to be a No God world. And given the manner in which I have come to understand and intertwine all this [as an existential contraption] in my signature threads.


But Iambiguous! You already know for a fact that our limitations cause consent violations here BY NECESSITY!!

Let's say that billions of people want to be your friend… and shake your hand with billions of different bodies… we know scientifically that the most friends a person can have is 150. That's zero sum. 150 compared to billions. That's going to violate the consent of billions of people!

Once you truly understand this truth, you'll be furious about this aspect of the zero sum nature of reality, and then you'll be on my mission -- trying to eradicate this.

You haven't joined me yet, because you're still not sympathetic to the REAL PROBLEM WERE FACING HERE!!! You're just churning out FAKE PROBLEMS
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Aegean » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:40 pm

In regards to abortion, euthanasia or any moral dilemma....there is no absolute final answer.
It's a triangulation.
Subject the circumstances and the goal.
What is the objective?
This determines if a choice is good or bad, productive or destructive.

But that's the start.
The objective has to be realistic, not based on fantasies with no precedent. It has to be realistic - realizable.
The Spartans killed the cripples infants because of their objective - strong, healthy warriors. It was moral if by moral we understand good for the group.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:25 pm

Aegean wrote:In regards to abortion, euthanasia or any moral dilemma....there is no absolute final answer.
It's a triangulation.
Subject the circumstances and the goal.
What is the objective?
This determines if a choice is good or bad, productive or destructive.

But that's the start.
The objective has to be realistic, not based on fantasies with no precedent. It has to be realistic - realizable.
The Spartans killed the cripples infants because of their objective - strong, healthy warriors. It was moral if by moral we understand good for the group.


Everything that's happened in your entire life has been unprecedented -- this is true for all of us. What's wrong with the unprecedented?

I'm not too fond of quitters.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Aegean » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:29 pm

Get help.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:48 pm

Aegean wrote:Get help.


And be like you, a slave to "fate", to just roll over when your consent is being violated? No thanks. I guess I'll just help you. Still suckling off mommys tits I see. The unprecedented is the fight. You know, if I didn't have such good karma, I'd have been shot dead 11 years ago… you are all very lucky that I can teach. The ONLY reason I'm still alive is because I had the best karma in the world, you all owe me, and on some deep level, you know it.

This world was destroyed. I brought it back. I left easter eggs so that you'd know. I mean COMON!! REALLY? The washington DC license plates REALLY say "Taxation without representation"?!?!?! It's my way of saying hello… Everyone knows that the phrase is "NO taxation without representation." I wanted you all to know that you're in a recreated world, I wanted to show you proof.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Aegean » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:39 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Aegean wrote:Get help.


And be like you, a slave to "fate", to just roll over when your consent is being violated? No thanks.
Yes...you truly understood me. I am a fatalist. Ask Brian.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Prismatic567 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:09 am

phyllo wrote:
What are you babbling about?
You are insulting yourself who is a 'subject'.

We are all subjects, thus fundamentally subjectivists. This is a fact.

Yes, there is objectivity, but that is intersubjectivity, i.e. intersubjective consensus.

There are no ontological universal objective moral truths out there independent of the subjects.
However it is possible for subjects to establish "universal objective moral truths" from reasoning and use them as guide for ethics and everyday life to optimize the well beings of the individual[s], groups and therefrom humanity.
Thus these "universal objective moral truths" are intersubjective.

Objective triangle??
Since objective = intersubjectivity, therefore an objective triangle is an intersubjective triangle. The essence is subjectivity.
If objective is the same as intersubjective, then we don't need both words. We can get rid of the word 'intersubjective'.

So now we are left with 'objective' and 'subjective'.

Dictionary cleaned up. Work done.

It's Miller time.

I did not state they are exactly the same in every way and perspective.

Would it be right to state "disease" = "bacteria" or
"reality" = "energy"

To be philosophical responsible we must dig deeper.

Intersubjectivity is the process that enable the emergence of objectification.

Who will deny this objective fact;


But this objective fact is based on the intersubjective consensus of all the judges who has to follow defined criteria by the Miss Universe Organization.

It is the same with scientific facts which are objective but they are grounded by the rules of the Scientific Framework and Scientific Methods plus peer review. Thus objective scientific truths are fundamentally intersubjective, i.e. based on intersubjective consensus.

To get to what is 'objective' we cannot ignore the fundamental process of intersubjective consensus.
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Postby Prismatic567 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:22 am

promethean75 wrote:
Intersubjective reveals a platonic (eternal) form. It transcends subjectivity. When the words refer to the same thing, why not keep it simple?


no it doesn't, and no we shouldn't. first off, nothing reveals 'platonic forms' because there's no such thing. and second, intersubjective does not equal objective. intersubjective would involve many, but not all, subjects. if it involved all possibe subjects, it would be objective.

so if many people believed something, and some people didn't, you'd have an intersubjective belief in truth that is in some dispute by some people. if you have an objective belief in truth, you have a belief that isn't in dispute any anyone. but believing in something doesn't make it 'true', and 'objective truth' isn't a property of a thing, but a property of a statement. so to say 'this statement is objectively true' would mean 'everyone able to comprehend it wouldn't say it was false.'
...

Note my post above where I stated,

Intersubjectivity is the process that enable the emergence of objectification.

What is objective must always be qualified and conditioned upon its relevant defined framework, whether it is a beauty-contest-organization, boxing-association, scientific method, etc.
There cannot be a standalone standard that determined what is objective.

You are looking for something that is absolutely objective? This is an impossibility within reality.

However there are degrees of confidence level to what is objective which is dependent on the reliability of the framework concerned.

To date, Science [not perfect] is the most reliable intersubjective framework to establish what is objective to the most optimal degree at present, due to its process of testability, verifiability, repeatability, falsifiability, peer review, etc.

In the case of legal, it is objective X is a convicted murder, but that is only qualified to a specific legislature system and the intersubjective processes.

My point;
Objectivity is intersubjective.
Intersubjectivity consensus is dependent on the system and process that enable the emergence of objectification.
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Re: Message to all subjectivists!

Postby Aegean » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:37 pm

Objectivity is like omnipotence and omniscience, a projected ideal.
It approaches the indifference of the real world, without ever attaining absolute agreement - the organism will always be affected by care - its own need/suffering corrupting or prejudicing its judgments - and by the limitations of its own organic imperfections.

Objectivity is not an absolute, no more than power is omnipotence, or knowledge is ever omniscience.
Any claim of an absolute, i.e., complete, whole, total, perfect - theory is a lie, usually hiding the opposite.
A claim to absolute power, hides feebleness, powerlessness.
All declarations of self-aggrandizing attainment, reveal a secret insecurity.

Consider the arrogant self-importance expressed in Christianity. it hides a vulnerability in relation to mortality, and the human condition.
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