Language

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Language

Postby Aegean » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Language and its proper use in philosophy and in real life.

By "proper" I do not mean whatever I like or prefer, but the most objective and empirical.

We begin with a division of man, in accordance with the platonic psyche, that was later translated into the Abrahamic triad of father/son/holy ghost.
The division is that which was represented by the charriot rider, and his two stallions, one black and one white - dark impulses and white passions.

The triad in physis is that of past/present/future, corresponding to mind/body/nervous system, including brain.
language can b placed within this triad in the present, corresponding to the dynamic part experienced as dynamic existence. The nervous system is where language engages dynamic reality, in the present.
It synthesizes past - i.e., sum of all nurturing, or nature, and future - i.e., projection of objective, also known as idea/ideal, destination, goal.
The nervous system synthesizes body/mind, ad this is where language, as a representation of mental abstractions, finds its place as its expression.

To put it philosophically, the triad is physis/metaphysis/ideal.
The starting point in this triad model is physis, presence, empirical....also called nature engaged directly in the present.
Philosophy must begin by grounding tis language here, before it proceeds towards metaphysis and ideologia, just as building a house begins from the surface of the earth, digging downward a foundation and from there upward towards the sky as a projection of the structure outward, while remaining in harmony with the environment.
Therefore, words like morality, sex, truth, god, love, can find a grounding in observable, experienced reality. Intentionally misusing these words indicates a motive other than clarity. it indicates a motive of manipulation, in the service fo a personal agenda, and of exploitation.

For example the term 'god' was not a meaningless abstraction, representing man's idealization of himself, or remaining vague and insinuating, as it is today.
Ancient gods were empierced and observed acting, as natural forces.
Morality, as well, is not some abstract idea with no meaning. It refers to a type of behaviour observed within specific species, facilitating particular goals, such as cooperative social structures and social cohesion.
The rule against killing is about not disturbing the group's internal harmony, and did not apply to anything outside of the group; rules against incest also find a utility ni simple genetics and the prevention of deformities.
To this evolved moral behaviour man added his own codes of conduct, ushering ni the age of the Theocracies. The Ten Commandment. An addition that often contradicts naturally evolved impulses and behaviours. We can distinguish these by naming them Ethical codes.
we now have a division between naturally evolved behaviours - morality - and socially imposed rules of conduct - ethics. These correspond to the mind/body duality, or to genetic and memetics.
Genes are of the body; memes are of the mind.
Ethical rules, such as those concerning adultery, or thieving, or respecting the neighbour though he is not part of your group, often fail to bring about the control that morals, evolved over thousands of years of natural selection, can produce.

But that's another tangent. For now, my position is that words, many words, currently being misused and intentionally abused, can be "brought down to earth", i.e., they can be grounded in empiricism, as a starting point.
This would be an objective start. observable, testable, falsifiable to all. not requiring priests to offer entrance into a theoretical occult alternate reality - oftentimes a nonsensical alternative - which they define and describe, as a way of controlling the masses.
Words returned to their rightful place as mediators, connectors, between awareness and world.
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Re: Language

Postby Aegean » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:23 pm

Corrupted language, usually indicates a corrupted mind. language being the externalization of thought processes.
Brain is where data is gathered - some from external sources, via the senses, some from internal sources, via the nervous system, but not only.
Brain these two data stream coalesce and are integrated, if possible, into abstractions, feelings, sensations.

Psychologies dominated from the internal, are esoteric thinkers; those dominated by the external, are pragmatic, empirical thinkers.
Usurping the phenomenal world with mental abstractions is an attempt to replace the external with esoteric constructs.
This is where the utility of language is inverted. No longer establishing a semiological connection to the external, but projecting its own internal processes to replace what is perceived and it finds threatening or wanting.
Nihilism starts here, as a projection of mental constructs, such as universal morality, the one-god, universal meaning and purpose; what is missing from the world, according to the individual's needs.
A defensives against the real, attempting to correct and to fill what it is lacking.

Esoteric thinkers project their own internal hopes, insecurities, vulnerabilities, essentially exposing themselves though metaphors and allegories, preserving 'plausible deniability'.
This is clear in the misuse of the term 'love' by Christians.
Last edited by Aegean on Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Language

Postby phoneutria » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:24 pm

holy shit @ this forum's image handling
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Re: Language

Postby Aegean » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:25 pm

Another clown wants to introduce itself to me.
That's what you get for going to a circus.

And what may you be?
The bullshit police?
Never saw you call bullshit before. Must be more to it, huh?
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Re: Language

Postby phoneutria » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:32 pm

Yes indeed I am the bullshit police.
I am here to inspect the quality of you bullshit.
I must say that this is A grade 100% pure bullshit.
I will issue you a certificate of purity. Expect it in the mail in 5-8 business days.
Get your pure bullshit here, ladies and gents.
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Re: Language

Postby Aegean » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:35 pm

What are your credentials, other than producing massive amounts of flatulence and word-faeces?
Are mind farts your credentials?

And to think some romantic imbecile wanted to save this from itself, and came here offering salvation from stupidity.
This deserves what is coming.

I'm gonna urge it along, towards its destiny. Its inevitable telos....its fate.
It loves fatalism.
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Re: Language

Postby phoneutria » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:41 pm

Sorry to derail your thread gramps, but as you friend it is my duty to tell you that nobody cares about you or your ideas, including me.
Now say something funny. Cmon.
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Re: Language

Postby Artimas » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:42 pm

phoneutria wrote:Sorry to derail your thread gramps, but as you friend it is my duty to tell you that nobody cares about you or your ideas, including me.
Now say something funny. Cmon.


Wow I haven’t seen you in a long time Phon, how you been?

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Language

Postby phyllo » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:43 pm

It's impossible to start a philosophy thread in this place without somebody immediately pissing on it. :obscene-moneypiss:
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Re: Language

Postby Aegean » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:46 pm

phyllo wrote:It's impossible to start a philosophy thread in this place without somebody immediately pissing on it. :obscene-moneypiss:
No shit?
Because this forum is not about philosophy.

It's a gathering of freaks.
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Re: Language

Postby phyllo » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:56 pm

Why did you start this thread?
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Re: Language

Postby Aegean » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:58 pm

Hope?
One must try...even in darkens, to light a spark.

Some will see.
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Re: Language

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:07 pm

Historically, different languages and cultures are suited to different purposes. Greek and Hebrew, are contrary, as examples. As you mention, you can claim the 'Empirical' nature of one, versus the Esoteric/Mystical nature of the other. One language/culture is suited to confront reality and clarify, while another is suited to muddy the water, muddle the mind, and increases obfuscation. The more 'civilized'/domesticated/effeminized one group is, the more ingrained in mysticism and religion it becomes. Because religion is mass-population control. Philosophy is antithetical. Philosophy, classically, is necessarily clarifying and de-mystifying. Philosophy is antithesis of Mysticism.

Also the Theology of one language/culture versus another, represents a different lineage of Ancestry, Genealogy, and thus, of their 'Gods'. So the Monotheism, the agenda inserted by Hebrew, is contrary and contradicting of the Polytheism of Greek/Roman dialectic. These (Pagan) terms pop-up throughout though, "Saturday, July, August", etc.

English is a conglomerate, amalgamation of different languages, reflecting the colonial nature of Anglo-British people, and their integration of foreigners into their, what is now 'WASP' overclass and culture. So English is expansive, but lacks context within its terms. I believe this is the cause for lots of confusion and disputes throughout the English language, and that many ideas are claimed "open to interpretation" when they're really not. So language has a (Genealogical) history as well as (Empirical).
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Re: Language

Postby Aegean » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:17 pm

if we divide the individual along the nervous system into mind/body....then genes are physical codes (DNA), and words are memetic codes (semiotics).

Language synthesizes both...if it is used properly. If it is used to escape or to hide from reality - nihilism - then it takes the form of corrupted words - meaningless terminology triggering emotions sensations, feelings, but referring to nothing ni reality.
Language evolves as a representation of a tribe's relationship with tis environment. This si why each language has its own essence, displaying the [particular genetic group, and tis historical relationship with tis environment.

Some languages evolved to function in niche environments, using specialized survival strategies.
The parasite - that will remain unnamed, for example has developed a language that is useful in exploiting and manipulating other tribes, because tis environment requires a proxy - see parasitic organisms.
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Re: Language

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:47 pm

I think Mathematics is the most specialized 'language', most 'niche', and it's interesting to see how European, Jewish, or Arab/Indian thinkers over time, have "interpreted" mathematics in their own ways.

English is most common, and spreading throughout the world even today, Post-Colonialism. English can be both Obfuscating or Empirical. There's more "artistic license" with English. I don't know much about Greek but its Paganistic base is overt and obvious.
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Re: Language

Postby Aegean » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:24 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:I think Mathematics is the most specialized 'language', most 'niche', and it's interesting to see how European, Jewish, or Arab/Indian thinkers over time, have "interpreted" mathematics in their own ways.

English is most common, and spreading throughout the world even today, Post-Colonialism. English can be both Obfuscating or Empirical. There's more "artistic license" with English. I don't know much about Greek but its Paganistic base is overt and obvious.
Mathematics is the most abstract language.
It reflects the human method of abstracting sensual input into symbols.
Some get carried away believing this is some universal code, and not a reflection of human abstracting and interpreting reality.

The binary 1/0 is based on the organic process of systolic/diastolic cellular rhythms.
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Re: Language

Postby Aegean » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:52 am

Language can be used to define concepts out of existence, or to define them in supernatural, surreal, mystifying ways, to promote nihilistic escapism and cynicism.
It all begins with a literal interpretation of words/symbols and not their application as representational. Language is art.
And like all art it can range from realism all the way to cubism, surrealism, and romanticism.
example of romanticism would be how the term 'love' has been defined, guaranteeing that nobody will ever experience such a kind of love, other than in the movies.

Most begin with an understanding of existence as being absolutely ordered. Language becomes a magical code representing this universal order. Divine code, exposing the mind of god.
Similar to Biblical text claiming to be the 'word of god'.

By defining words in surreal, supernatural ways one can easily achieve negation or imply an alternative reality hidden beneath, above, the experienced.
To get rid of a concept the easiest method is to use words that place them in some realm outside space/time.
This is how many words have been rendered meaningless or have been mystified. Defined out of existence. The concepts they represent made impossible to experience in reality, but only imagined.
Like the words 'god'...'morality'...'love'...'meaning'.....and 'free-will'.
Defining 'free' and 'will' in absolutist ways, ensures that you will never experience them in reality. This si how you can define a concept out of existence.
The same is true for the word 'god', or 'order, or 'morality', or 'value'. Even the meaning of the word 'meaning' can be made meaningless.

let's take an extreme example. Let's say we want to define a horse out of existence.
Well, then we can describe and define this creature that describe a magical creature, like a unicorn, ro a centaur. Then we can seek to find it in the real world and constantly fail.
we may see a horse, but that'll be a poor imitation of the 'real thing', ensuring disappointment, and a failure to ever prove a horse, as we've described and defined it, even exists.
We can then claim that horse do not really exist, or that you need training, initiation into the occult to find a real horse, and not these poor imitations.
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Re: Language

Postby promethean75 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:05 am

Even the meaning of the word 'meaning' can be made meaningless.


I'm sorry sir, but this is demonstrably false and logically impossible.

Whatever statements that succeeded in proving the word 'meaning' was meaningless, would have to be meaningful in their demonstrative proofs, and would therefore refute themselves... self-referentially, as it were.
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Re: Language

Postby Aegean » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:10 am

promethean75 wrote:
Even the meaning of the word 'meaning' can be made meaningless.


I'm sorry sir, but this is demonstrably false and logically impossible.

Whatever statements that succeeded in proving the word 'meaning' was meaningless, would have to be meaningful in their demonstrative proofs, and would therefore refute themselves... self-referentially, as it were.

Meaning...indicates relationships and their degrees.

Seeking meaning, defined as magical, as absolute, as supernatural, makes the word 'meaning' meaningless.
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Re: Language

Postby Artimas » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:31 am

Language is both a barrier and a powerful tool, English I believe was meant to be confusing and overly complex to cause division. Things may have slightly different meanings to people, which can cause fighting and a lack of understanding of each other.

We speak things into existence, the power of language is dependent upon ones use of it through what is understood regarding it and division from what is not understood regarding it.

It could be constructed better, to be more efficient and easier understood by others whom have different contextual backgrounds and perception.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Language

Postby Aegean » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:38 am

promethean75 wrote:
Even the meaning of the word 'meaning' can be made meaningless.


I'm sorry sir, but this is demonstrably false and logically impossible.

Whatever statements that succeeded in proving the word 'meaning' was meaningless, would have to be meaningful in their demonstrative proofs, and would therefore refute themselves... self-referentially, as it were.
See?
The power of negation.
it doesn't require much effort. Just deny and negate, powered by cynicism.
All is as it ought to be, and could not have been otherwise.
God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Replace 'god' with another word implying the same....like 'one,' or universe, or some other symbol of absoluteness. Order
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Re: Language

Postby Aegean » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:43 am

Artimas wrote:Language is both a barrier and a powerful tool, English I believe was meant to be confusing and overly complex to cause division. Things may have slightly different meanings to people, which can cause fighting and a lack of understanding of each other.

We speak things into existence, the power of language is dependent upon ones use of it through what is understood regarding it and division from what is not understood regarding it.

It could be constructed better, to be more efficient and easier understood by others whom have different contextual backgrounds and perception.
Yes, the magical power of words and symbols.
Codes.
You can bring things into existence, with a word; or define it out of existence.
Define it in a way that it cannot possibly exist.

Language is to memes what DNA is to genes.
What are they?
Memory carriers, when placed in the proper sequences.
They externalize noetic constructs.
Like technology is the externalization of man's understanding, of himself. Language is the code of technology.

Words/symbols with no external references are words referring to concepts with no substance - entirely theoretical, abstract. Such words can be used to manipulate and exploit those dissatisfied with existence. They become political and marketing tools.
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Re: Language

Postby Aegean » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:34 am

What does meaning "mean".

It refers to relationships and their degrees. It refers to utility. Matrices of inter-connectivity.
Like a map is a representation of a geography. The points on the map must refer to real places, and their respective distances, elevations, terrain; connecting one location with another. The map must be accurate and useful, in the real world. It has to have meaning.
A map of Tolkien's Middle Earth would have meaning in the abstract, the theoretical, the fantastic. The map does not refer to a real geography. It is useless, unless one uses it to escape the real world, into an alternate fantasy reality.

Now imagine a map with no discernible points of reference, no elevations, no distances, no points indicating places...a meaningless map, a useless one. A surreal map. A map used to project whatever the individual wants to project into it.

The world is full of meaning, if meaning is accurately defined. It is full of inter-relationships and utilities.
If meaning is defined as something supernatural, universal, then the word 'meaning' is meaningless. Nobody can find such meaning....because it does not exist outside the mind of the one who created it.
The proper definition of words is vital to not be seduced and exploited by charlatans, snake-oil salesmen, prophets and messiahs.

'Gods' exist, if the word is defined properly.
'Morality' exists objectively, if it is defined properly.
'Truth' exists, if the word is defined properly.
Same goes for 'value' and 'meaning' and 'love', and 'spirit', and 'soul' and 'free-will' etc.
You may not like the proper definition, but that changes nothing.

A "proper" definition would connect the noetic map, in the mind, with an external geography, independent from the mind.
All these words can refer to experienced, dynamic processes - or they can be defined in ways that makes them meaningless and none-existent and nowhere to be found.
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Re: Language

Postby Artimas » Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:08 am

Aegean wrote:
Artimas wrote:Language is both a barrier and a powerful tool, English I believe was meant to be confusing and overly complex to cause division. Things may have slightly different meanings to people, which can cause fighting and a lack of understanding of each other.

We speak things into existence, the power of language is dependent upon ones use of it through what is understood regarding it and division from what is not understood regarding it.

It could be constructed better, to be more efficient and easier understood by others whom have different contextual backgrounds and perception.
Yes, the magical power of words and symbols.
Codes.
You can bring things into existence, with a word; or define it out of existence.
Define it in a way that it cannot possibly exist.

Language is to memes what DNA is to genes.
What are they?
Memory carriers, when placed in the proper sequences.
They externalize noetic constructs.
Like technology is the externalization of man's understanding, of himself. Language is the code of technology.

Words/symbols with no external references are words referring to concepts with no substance - entirely theoretical, abstract. Such words can be used to manipulate and exploit those dissatisfied with existence. They become political and marketing tools.


Similar to how religion is externalization of man’s inner psyche and self projected identity in present moments of continuity.

Remind me of Trixie.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Language

Postby promethean75 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:38 pm

See?
The power of negation.
it doesn't require much effort. Just deny and negate, powered by cynicism.


Oh shit my bad. I meant to agree with what you said. I dunno what got into me. Probably the spirit of abrahamic nihilism or something... which is usually the conspiring force behind the logic of semantics.

Or at best I should have said:

"I'm sorry sir, but this is demonstrably false and logically impossible, maybe, but not absolutely, because if it was demonstrably false and logically impossible, I would no doubt be a nihilist because of that."
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