Oppose me

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Oppose me

Postby Silhouette » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:28 am

As an ideologically opposed person to "x", how do you intend to engage with me?

Remember that "x" emotionally disturbs you to the utmost and you are highly rational at the same time.

Attack me? Defend me? Wait? Intentionally adopt a specific attitude primarily? Perhaps ultimately?

What do you intend to gain from such an approach?

How would you honestly describe your approach to any given argument "x" on this forum or elsewhere besides?
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Mad Man P » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:03 am

Silhouette wrote:As an ideologically opposed person to "x", how do you intend to engage with me?

Remember that "x" emotionally disturbs you to the utmost and you are highly rational at the same time.

Attack me? Defend me? Wait? Intentionally adopt a specific attitude primarily? Perhaps ultimately?

What do you intend to gain from such an approach?


What a strange question... I'm not even sure I understand it
I'll give this a shot, but let me know if I'm not addressing the question correctly.

My first course of action, given that I find the "x" emotionally disturbing and yet am a highly rational person, is to take a good long time to calm the hell down and try to figure out why you are or believe in "x"
I will try to identify the root causes as best I can.. and then depending on what it is try to tackle it accordingly.

What I hope to accomplish is gain a better understanding of x and act accordingly.
If x is as bad as I believed and I can salvage you from the wreckage, I've made my world a better place by having made a friend of an otherwise enemy.
If x is as bad as I believed and I cannot bring you out of it, I would shine a bright light on your mistakes, mock and ridicule you endlessly and make an example of you for others. Inoculate others against x.
If x is not as bad as I believed, then I would be grateful for the insight and leave you in peace.
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
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Re: Oppose me

Postby surreptitious75 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:20 am

Silhouette wrote:
Remember that x emotionally disturbs you to the utmost and you are highly rational at the same time

I do not think it is possible to be emotionally disturbed and highly rational at the same time
Here be two mental states that are essentially polar opposites so are mutually incompatible

But are you talking about Ecmandu by any chance because it sounds very much like you are
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:19 am

Silhouette wrote:As an ideologically opposed person to "x", how do you intend to engage with me?

Remember that "x" emotionally disturbs you to the utmost and you are highly rational at the same time.

Attack me? Defend me? Wait? Intentionally adopt a specific attitude primarily? Perhaps ultimately?

What do you intend to gain from such an approach?

How would you honestly describe your approach to any given argument "x" on this forum or elsewhere besides?
I don't have one approach. I am often curious about what will happen when B is pointed out, or C. What happens. What happens to the kind of mind that believes x? What will it do? What does it do when encountering an argument that is on the rare side? (I think I sometimes come up with those).

In one sense other people are reflecting back to me ideas that are already inside me. We tend to think of ourselves as monads, people with one belief on each single issue. I think that's bs. So, I get to interact with an idea that is already inside me and one that even has allies inside me. I get to loosen that intra-relationship up since I only have to be one party.

So, two things are going on: probing of minds that are centered elsewhere than mine; trying to reshuffle my own integration. Heck, love to have unity.

I've done all things on that list. But I think probing is the most appropriate term. I wanna see what happens.
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Meno_ » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:59 pm

Silhouette wrote:As an ideologically opposed person to "x", how do you intend to engage with me?

Remember that "x" emotionally disturbs you to the utmost and you are highly rational at the same time.

Attack me? Defend me? Wait? Intentionally adopt a specific attitude primarily? Perhaps ultimately?

What do you intend to gain from such an approach?

How would you honestly describe your approach to any given argument "x" on this forum or elsewhere besides?



I would, could only inquire if this belief in X is Your belief, as well, Or it is merely a brutally position objective that may or may not be very emotionally bad.

The more objectively can the rationale be held at bay, the less do attitudes need to be calibrated toward the mode of presentation, and the irritation with it be seen as a general positioning with the attitude with which it is concerned.

The disturbance that x causes may be sign of other than an issue with the causes by which such emotional disturbance, little to do with the specific object or, the general displeasure with X, and may be , for the most part, a subjective response that is generally present in the attitude adopted.

Being in the world may be existentially displayed within good or bad faith, and a method may be adopted, such as, combative, or conciliatory, to the degree with which a normative approach can be adopted.
Philosophically , a least emotional reaction can be adopted, maximizing the most objective elements of the issue with X, whereas psychologically, the latitude of emotional attitudes adopted can entail the most varied forms.
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:04 pm

This OP Makes no rational sense... it is word salad.

The beauty of being human though, is that we know what you mean.

You're asking people how they should defend/ react to you Reacting to someone else

What if you're indefensible?
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:24 pm

Silhouette wrote:As an ideologically opposed person to "x", how do you intend to engage with me?

Remember that "x" emotionally disturbs you to the utmost and you are highly rational at the same time.

Attack me? Defend me? Wait? Intentionally adopt a specific attitude primarily? Perhaps ultimately?

What do you intend to gain from such an approach?

How would you honestly describe your approach to any given argument "x" on this forum or elsewhere besides?



Create a lot of space. Let go of all defenses and seek only the truth. Realize that it is only the discussion which is important.
Allow one his/her beliefs and then address that calmly. If that does not work, then walk away.

Naive? lol
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Silhouette » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:04 am

Some interesting responses that appear to be honest and which certainly show up in this place and elsewhere besides.

To a couple of people who expressed some degree of confusion about my wording, it is about the "form" of discussion/debate - particularly (but not necessarily) in an environment where strong beliefs/opinions/positions are held and reason is called for. What is the way in which you approach the situation? What do you wish to get out of doing so?
And no, it's not directed to anyone in particular.

To those who suggested "y" or "B" and "C", I'm guessing you are not intending a change in the topic, but instead another side to the same topic, or a next step in its progression as perceived by you. I'd say expanding the breadth and depth of the topic is good for context, but have the potential to detract or derail from the initial "x" or at least specific aspects of "x" that were initially intended to be focused upon.
So already an inherent dilemma of debate shows up - probably the best thing you can do when approaching things in this way is to specify each way in which y, B or C is linked to x, and to explicitly bring it all back to x once you have done so. Perhaps this was intended to be implicit in suggesting y, B or C.

In general there appears to be more commentary on means rather than ends - one of the questions I asked was "What do you intend to gain from such an approach?" To clarify: what I meant by this question was less about why you think your approach is good and what it does within the argument, and more about what you wish to get out of the argument once it has run its course.
Some answers might be:
1. I want to win
2. I enjoy conflict
3. I want to learn
4. I want to gain respect
5. I want to express something
6. I want to help mediate
7. I just want the discussion to happen - Arcturus seemed to answer my question with this answer, as well as
8. I want the truth to out
9. I want to change someone's mind
There's probably tons more answers to this question, and obviously there's probably shades of many of them in any one person's intentional or unintentional approaches. You might even say there's even longer term considerations going on than these, such as why you want the outcome to be any of these things or more. Perhaps you want to facilitate social, economic or legal change, maybe influence political opinion towards these ends even to the slightest of degrees.

One valuable symptom of free speech is disagreement, but of course the more disagreement, the more deadlock there will be in coming to a consensus over how to enact something in law, morality and social convention.
Conversely, law, morality and social convention are uniform at least to a significant degree if not universally - the more nuances there are, the more loopholes can emerge and less clear the rules become. This can encumber efforts to set up lawful practice and requires much more specialisation in expertise at the expense of developing broad understanding of as many things as possible. I would say the value behind rules is in perceived fairness - it seems to be a good thing when the foundations are fair, but not only to know that they are, but to know that other people know they are - and to know they know you know and vice versa. However it also seems to be a good thing for fairness that people don't get left too far behind, and we get the good old equality of opportunity versus equality of outcome dilemma. But the more interesting dilemma is between either of these and free speech - one requires more homogeneity for fairness, the other requires more heterogeneity for variation and lack of restriction.

Not sure you can really resolve that.
Which is somewhat the point of this thread - what is there to be gained from debates/discussions? If you "win", you facilitate the creation of law and fairness, if you just want to provide context and variation, you expand the topic and exercise free speech, but nothing specific can really be built and changed from opening things up. Are there ends to be sought from debate/discussion?
So back to my initial post - why are you approaching things in the way you do?
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:30 am

In the history of religion, the 'evil one' is understood to be the tester of faith and character.

In the Bible, this character is Satan

In Buddhism, this character is Mara or Yama

To understand these religions is to understand that the evil one is at worst a misguided character... as it could just give you all the right answers ahead of time.

In Buddhism in particular, Mara is called the evil one because he appears before someone close to being enlightened and works to prevent enlightenment.

However, many traditions honor such characters as true tests of value or worth for this state of being.

Perhaps that's how we should see our debators, as a blessing instead of a curse.

I always tell people that the funniest possible judgement day would be if the "evil" deity like Satan and Mara and the devil were like, "I'm a really nice person, what the fuck is wrong with you!?"
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Silhouette » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:42 am

Ecmandu wrote:I always tell people that the funniest possible judgement day would be if the "evil" deity like Satan and Mara and the devil were like, "I'm a really nice person, what the fuck is wrong with you!?"

Everyone thinks they're right and on the good path, and it's the others who oppose or are not for your path who are wrong - even the most "evil" of people think this. The more interesting question is why are they right? But one should ask first why are they themselves the evil one.

Moreover, how are you relating this to the opening post?
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:50 am

Silhouette wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:I always tell people that the funniest possible judgement day would be if the "evil" deity like Satan and Mara and the devil were like, "I'm a really nice person, what the fuck is wrong with you!?"

Everyone thinks they're right and on the good path, and it's the others who oppose or are not for your path who are wrong - even the most "evil" of people think this. The more interesting question is why are they right? But one should ask first why are they themselves the evil one.

Moreover, how are you relating this to the opening post?


You asked specifically about opposition. This idea is thousands of years old, mostly religious oriented. These archetypes are deeply imbedded.

Satan is called 'the accuser'. I'm just adding that the archetype for opposition, in its very rich history, looks at these types of interactions as a vetting process, necessary, helpful, even divine.
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:09 am

Silhouette wrote:Some answers might be:
1. I want to win
2. I enjoy conflict
3. I want to learn
4. I want to gain respect
5. I want to express something
6. I want to help mediate
7. I just want the discussion to happen - Arcturus seemed to answer my question with this answer, as well as
8. I want the truth to out
9. I want to change someone's mind

These have all come up. Here are some others that have....
10. I want a distraction
11. I want to finally say what I generally cannot say in face to face discussions
12. I want to have the discussion with someone else playing the role of one of my own warring parts
13. I want to see what makes 'such people' tick
14. I want to explore the dynamic between two memes or POVs or paradigms
15. I want to agitate
16. I want to see if I can break new ground on the issue and what happens when I do
17. I want to hone my discussion skills
18. I want to end up more unified in myself
19. I want to find out what my own thoughts actually are
20. I want to see what happens if I try lines of thought I haven't before
21. I want to see, again and again, that rationality is rarely the issue, so I stop thinking I have this obligation to speak truth to power or whatever. To really and finally get it that people all have blind spots that they will protect by any means.
22. To entertain.
23. To express myself
24. To play
25. To help break the facile dismissal of orphan thoughts - orphan here meaning something like it does in orphan drugs and orphan diseases, where there is not enough financial motivation to develop drugs, since not many have these diseases. To fight, so to speak, the facile dismissal of ideas outside the mainstream.
26. The undercut the various smug positions out there
27. To defend the underdog
28. To smack things that annoy me
29. To eat away at the things that hate life

I am sure there is more...

So back to my initial post - why are you approaching things in the way you do?
Well, if you have mixed motivations, you will have a mixed approach. That's a very general and abstract answer, but it's where I'd have to start since I have so many motivations for my approach(es). And with distraction a really rather strong and embarrassing motivation, for example, what happens is going to be a mixed bag.
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:18 am

Silhouette wrote:Everyone thinks they're right and on the good path,
I think this might be less true than I used to think it was. I think there are people out there who know they are doing what they are doing for themselves and know they are not good and even think this focus on good and evil/bad is just silly. They know the importance of morals and play the game, but don't buy into it. I think a lot of the power players are like this. They are just busy winning, sucking life out of people, and doing whatever to get that done. Sociopaths and psychopaths.
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Silhouette » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:03 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Silhouette wrote:Everyone thinks they're right and on the good path,
I think this might be less true than I used to think it was. I think there are people out there who know they are doing what they are doing for themselves and know they are not good and even think this focus on good and evil/bad is just silly. They know the importance of morals and play the game, but don't buy into it. I think a lot of the power players are like this. They are just busy winning, sucking life out of people, and doing whatever to get that done. Sociopaths and psychopaths.

Yeah and that's the path they think is right and good. In such cases as you bring up, people redefine right and good away from the traditional or socially acceptable way to justify what they are doing and rid cognitive dissonance. Perhaps they do it out of good intent to change the traditional or socially acceptable way for the better, perhaps they do it out of resentment to get back at the traditional or socially acceptable way - either way in their mind it's the good and right thing to do. This isn't a weakness or something that ought to be overcome, it's a necessary precondition for motivation to act at all. And even in the depressed case that withdraws from motivation, the same gymnastics occur that turn against oneself in a disembodied way because it's the right and good thing to do to turn against oneself in their mind. Even depression is motivation, but inverted in its direction. Sociopathy and psychopathy deviate from the norm in the same way but with different direction, caring and not caring respectively about the impact beyond one's own gain. Genius deviates, as does foolishness, as does disinterest - there are many ways to deviate from the traditional or socially acceptable path - all of which are justified as a more right and good path, and there are many components within the traditional or socially acceptable path to contribute towards - as is the right and good path in the minds of those who choose such a path in a much more simple way.

The doers and the thinkers.
Thinking is doing, but a particular type of doing that belays other types of action. Action as "other types of action than thinking" is the antithesis to breadth and depth of thought - it's the condensation of all thought down to one strain, and making it happen. You can act in all kinds of ways, the same as there being many components within the traditional or socially acceptable path - none of which require thought. You can think beyond this and then act, but only in one way at a time. Breadth and depth of thought, as with the variety and conflict that results from Free Speech, negates action and homogeneity in favour of heterogeneity. What then, is there to be gained from debate and discussion for its own sake outside of the realm of thought and into the realm of action? Why do you debate and discuss? To not act or to act counter to breadth and depth of thought seem to be the only options.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:These have all come up. Here are some others that have....

I am sure there is more...

Yeah, some great additions there - some more similar to one another and to what I already came up with than others, but I guess with a nuanced twist. Perhaps some categorisation could be performed here.

However, I still stress the question - what are you doing all this probing for in all these mixed ways - not just KT but anyone else here?

KT, you might say there is no one end to your mixed approaches, and maybe you're saying that you don't know any particular reasons for taking them because you have so many different ones to take - making any answer general and abstract as you say. To me this would suggest the means are ends in themselves, like with Arcturus.

Perhaps it is the case that everyone here is discussing and debating with no ends other than the means themselves?
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:45 am

Silhouette wrote:Yeah and that's the path they think is right and good.

Not in my experience. They think other people are stupid for believing in right or good. They see them as hallucinating the existence of moral goods. They consider themselves to be simply going for goals. And do not think morals have any existence. Not gods, no objective morals. Just getting what you want.

In such cases as you bring up, people redefine right and good away from the traditional or socially acceptable way to justify what they are doing and rid cognitive dissonance.
Yeah, no, not at all. They don't have that issue. They don't care about other people and they don't believe in morals.

I used to think like you, but I have met enough of these people to see that there is a rather large group of sociopaths and psychopaths and they rise in the current systems. They may present moral arguments, because this are effective tools, but they don't give a shit and do not feel guilt or shame about being immoral, cruel, bad....It's all...all practical issues to get to goals.

And I am not aiming this 'at my political enemies'. These people can be found in any political party. They just want the power and will wear any 'political outfit'. They do not care about that, except as a tool.
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:03 am

The main problem with Modern-Post-Modern thinkers and wannabe philosophers, like most on this forum, is intellectual dishonesty and general cowardice. In order to engage Philosophy, and become Philosophical, or more, a Philosopher, you have to lay it all out on the line. You have to put your core-values, beliefs, and ideas to the test. That means, comparing them with others, recognizing disputes of interest, and then engaging rational dialogue and exposition with opponents. You need a level of intelligence high enough to keep track of logical contradictions. Most of humanity says one thing, thinks a second thing, and acts on a third thing. So most people don't know themselves very well.

In reality, people act on their core-values, which are most obvious in Instinct and Reflex. Philosophers are most distant from Nature, in the sense of being removed from immediate dangers, threats, and predators, and so can dwell on complex and paramount issues, questions, mysteries, doubts, etc. which are most important to the whole species. Philosophy is a mark of prestige and the highest class, in this way. Other humans merely live out their lives, unaware, and generally meaningless, without ever knowing or becoming aware of anything 'better'.

All this said, to Silhouette and the OP, if you remain a coward, and continue to withhold your core-believes, values, and metaphysics, then you'll never really progress in any meaningful way. In order to have disputes, you first have to believe in the thing that you are disputing. There must be something at stake. This is why more common topics, such as sex, are more appealing since the views anybody and everybody has, directly correlate and represent the individual and their status. You can't have an opinion on sex and sexuality, without having a stake in the game.


Philosophy has been this classically, but is not so in Modernity, which is a grave mistake. Philosophers in previous eras knew, that in addition to building a metaphysical worldview, and after examining all the important points and perspectives, you must then act on what you believe and state. This is why Socrates must "drink the poison". You must follow-through with your philosophy. If that leads you to a bottle of poison, or ethical dilemmas, abortion, murder, starting World War II, then that is simply the outcome which must follow logically and objectively.

So, to conclude, Philosophy cannot be done when everybody is cowardly and half-arguing. You need to be courageous, lay it all out, what you believe in, and then the arguments need to matter. If you lose, then you must concede to the superior mind, and follow the rationale and logic as proved through exposition. If you continue to believe in contradictions, because you are stupid and/or a coward, then to repeat, Philosophy is not for you. But this is the normal state of things. The Wannabes line-up, the amateurs, the average minds, they "play with" philosophy, but do not actually cross the threshold and *DO* philosophy.

I question whether you, Silhouette, are even capable to begin with, after our previous arguments and debates about free-will...
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 am

Silhouette wrote:However, I still stress the question - what are you doing all this probing for in all these mixed ways - not just KT but anyone else here?
It's not as complicated an issue as, say, 'why are you social?' but let me use that even broader question to explain why it may not be simplifiable. In fact I am skeptical that anyone has only a couple of reasons for their participation and only a couple of goals that explain how they participate, react and act. We are coming in contact with personalities and ideas. People are reacting to our ideas and participation. Many of these ideas matter a lot to us. Our egos matter to us. People react in a wide variety of ways. There is a wide variety of issues being brought up. This triggers and brings into the room a host of personal and idea-related reactions in us across a wide range of potential social, academic, interpersonal, intrpersonal tensions.

Anyone who suggests that they are here to find the truth and this explains their behavior is oversimplifying radically. Any other single answer is a radical oversimplification when it comes to explaining what they do.

It might be that I consciously allow for a wide range of goals and try a few more approaches by conscious choice than others, but I find it hard to imagine there isn't a comparable complexity on an unconscious level in nearly everyone who participates with any regularity.

KT, you might say there is no one end to your mixed approaches, and maybe you're saying that you don't know any particular reasons for taking them because you have so many different ones to take - making any answer general and abstract as you say. To me this would suggest the means are ends in themselves, like with Arcturus.
Yes, that is also true. I feel the urge to do many of these things. Some of the urges are already in motion, some come up in response. But then many of these reasons/goals also have ends. Like distraction. If I want distraction, I get it. If I want to bother a person with an idea that bothers me. Well, I achieve that, sometimes. If I want to find out what I actually believe, well that happens, sometimes. so, there are small achievements under most of those categories.

Perhaps it is the case that everyone here is discussing and debating with no ends other than the means themselves?
If I had to come up with an overarching end, it would be a vague one. Something like: trying to be better at being myself. But this certainly doesn't cover things like wanting to be distracted.
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:23 pm

Silhouette,

To me this would suggest the means are ends in themselves, like with Arcturus.


I do not know how you gleaned that from what I wrote and I am not sure that I actually thought of it in that way but I would suppose that that could be true for me.

It reminds me of the saying that the journey is as important as the destination or at least in this case that preparing for the journey which brings us to the destination (truth and answers) is also vital.

It can be seen as packing a bag for a vacation. The end of the packing is the beginning of the vacation more or less. lol Most of us would not go away without packing. That to me is an end in itself. How important a one depends on the individual.

I think that some people though would view "the means as ends in themselves" as a negative though but I think that would depend on the situation.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Meno_ » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:40 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Silhouette,

To me this would suggest the means are ends in themselves, like with Arcturus.


I do not know how you gleaned that from what I wrote and I am not sure that I actually thought of it in that way but I would suppose that that could be true for me.

It reminds me of the saying that the journey is as important as the destination or at least in this case that preparing for the journey which brings us to the destination (truth and answers) is also vital.

It can be seen as packing a bag for a vacation. The end of the packing is the beginning of the vacation more or less. lol Most of us would not go away without packing. That to me is an end in itself. How important a one depends on the individual.

I think that some people though would view "the means as ends in themselves" as a negative though but I think that would depend on the situation.



And yet, it may be a more inclusive comment, more general in scope. It may imply the kind of short circuit that sets in with deconstructing personalities along with the general trend of simplification of the quality of recreating a style. It may be the silver lining that shines irreducibly, after all manner of substantial importance have been vested.
People now days are easily irritated by the occasional repartee that inclines them to conclude that it was an intentional distraction, whereas , positive overkill, emphasizes such hyper mirroring.
My opinion of You, Arcturus negates any semblance of impression that it is 'true for You' , I rather think that You are hesitant for some reason to open such a can of worms, reluctant to make the wavelets that can grow into a feared typhoons like wave.
Yes cool is the word, be cool, or be fooled.
Do not underestimate Natures potency in asserting Her natural dominance. The male in us would be very weary to have his reticence to her true nature revealed.
It really is nothing else but a ploy , by which it uses euphemisms to cover the depth from disintegration.


Typical.
Last edited by Meno_ on Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Silhouette » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:59 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Silhouette wrote:Yeah and that's the path they think is right and good.

Not in my experience. They think other people are stupid for believing in right or good. They see them as hallucinating the existence of moral goods. They consider themselves to be simply going for goals. And do not think morals have any existence. Not gods, no objective morals. Just getting what you want.

And so being not stupid for believing in right or good is the right and good way to go in their minds, yes? Not hallucinating the existence of moral goods, gods, objective morals or caring about other people - and simply going for goals and getting what you want is the right and good way for them. By "right and good" I don't mean in the normal slave morality way as described by Nietzsche - for the types to whom you refer it is "right and good" in the master morality idem. I'm speaking in terms of moral relativism: yes, they're not fitting what they do into the regular moral framework - "morals" derive from "customs" and their customs are to go for goals and seek what they want, which is a different moral framework in which they are right and good.

Of course they might present their actions to others in terms of slave morality - because as you say this is an effective tool, and not because they give a shit or feel guilt or shame about being "immoral", cruel and bad. I'm not aiming this at any particular political "side" either. If you say you used to think like me as though there was one absolute morality, then I don't think you did used to think like me. If you were already thinking in terms of moral relativism in the Nietzschean philological sense, and you disagree with his take, then maybe you did - but that's not what's coming across so far.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Silhouette wrote:However, I still stress the question - what are you doing all this probing for in all these mixed ways - not just KT but anyone else here?

It's not as complicated an issue as, say, 'why are you social?' but let me use that even broader question to explain why it may not be simplifiable. In fact I am skeptical that anyone has only a couple of reasons for their participation and only a couple of goals that explain how they participate, react and act. We are coming in contact with personalities and ideas. People are reacting to our ideas and participation. Many of these ideas matter a lot to us. Our egos matter to us. People react in a wide variety of ways. There is a wide variety of issues being brought up. This triggers and brings into the room a host of personal and idea-related reactions in us across a wide range of potential social, academic, interpersonal, intrpersonal tensions.

Simply being social would be another reason to add to the list.

The overall impression of your reasons for debating and discussing is that they are very diluted. Both "Trying to be better at being myself" and "for distraction" alike seem as though you enjoy the means as ends in themselves much like Arcturus, though in your own way(s): both of you and others having plural answers without any call for radical oversimplification of course.

This reasoning doesn't come up against the obstacle that I wanted to get at: that "free speech" and "some one best action to take as a result" are at odds. For you there is no intention for action to be taken beyond your self, from what I can tell. No doubt this is why people advise that change comes from within and to change the world you just need to change yourself, and can only change yourself.

This is entirely consistent with Individualism, where everyone is supposed to contribute of themselves in line with what they want, and what ends up actually happening sort of bubbles over at the top as an emergent property.
The up-side of this is that quantitatively a majority of people find that actions taken are close enough to their own interests.
The down-side of this is that homogeneity is incentivised, and mediocrity is what we all get.
I'm interested in the possibility of anything better, but I suspect something better is not possible because the homogeneity of perceived fairness in society's rules, laws and morals is at odds with the variety and conflict that is symptomatic of everyone expressing themselves differently in a free speech environment. This would make Nietzsche's Last Man the result.

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Silhouette wrote:To me this would suggest the means are ends in themselves, like with Arcturus.

I do not know how you gleaned that from what I wrote and I am not sure that I actually thought of it in that way but I would suppose that that could be true for me.

You don't know how I gleaned it, but I was correct?
From what you say, you are journey oriented. But you also speak of the destination/vacation that follow the preparation/packing. Is there anywhere you or others are trying to get to, or are you just on your journey and finding out where you end up? - that is my question. I'm not saying it's good or bad either way at the moment, I'm just gathering information.
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:43 pm

Silhouette wrote:

To me this would suggest the means are ends in themselves, like with Arcturus.


Arcturus wrote:

I do not know how you gleaned that from what I wrote and I am not sure that I actually thought of it in that way but I would suppose that that could be true for me.


You don't know how I gleaned it, but I was correct?


Yes though as I said I was not even thinking in those terms but we learn to read between the lines as you did.


From what you say, you are journey oriented
.

Extremely - I am like a gypsy, but I do eventually like to reach my destination which then in a way begins another journey. I also rather enjoy being a contrarian. Who wants to really think like someone else, like everyone else. That may also be a great approach to the beginning of the "journey".


But you also speak of the destination/vacation that follow the preparation/packing. Is there anywhere you or others are trying to get to, or are you just on your journey and finding out where you end up? - that is my question.


Something about that made me laugh. Who knows why. How can I speak for others?

Anyway, it occurs to me that in a sense, that IS one of the philosophical methods of ultimately finding truth and answers, I think... that we go along on this journey observing and exploring and thinking and questioning and doing just what you said ~~ finding out where you end up or one might say "getting one's bearings". But "ending up" is not necessarily the end of the journey or the ultimate objective - it just allows us to see if we are going in the right direction to find the truth, the answers. I am not sure if I am expressing this in a way that you will understand. I might say that doing this is like the scout who goes out before to see what is ahead. Perhaps not a good analogy.

This I do not see as a waste of time since finding out where you end up is only the half of it.


I'm not saying it's good or bad either way at the moment, I[/list]'m just gathering information.


No, personally I do not think of it as a bad thing. It just depends on how each individual approaches something. We do not get from A to Z in one giant leap. If we do not "see" things along the way we may end up in a ditch and break our ankles. lol or have to go back to where we began and begin again.

I hope that this was helpful to you.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:21 pm

Hi Meno,

My opinion of You, Arcturus negates any semblance of impression that it is 'true for You' , I rather think that You are hesitant for some reason to open such a can of worms, reluctant to make the wavelets that can grow into a feared typhoons like wave.


What are you saying here? That I am not exercising my inner dragon? Or better yet, my inner tsunami? :mrgreen:

Are you calling me a coward? lol Explain yourself, Sir! :evilfun:
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:51 pm

Silhouette wrote:And so being not stupid for believing in right or good is the right and good way to go in their minds, yes?
Not in any moral sense and not something they want to spread and not in the sense of making things better for anyone but themselves.

If you meant it to include that way from the beginning, sure. But it didn't read like that.


Not hallucinating the existence of moral goods, gods, objective morals or caring about other people - and simply going for goals and getting what you want is the right and good way for them. By "right and good" I don't mean in the normal slave morality way as described by Nietzsche - for the types to whom you refer it is "right and good" in the master morality idem.
It's practical, for them.

I'm speaking in terms of moral relativism: yes, they're not fitting what they do into the regular moral framework - "morals" derive from "customs" and their customs are to go for goals and seek what they want, which is a different moral framework in which they are right and good.
It's not a moral framework.

Of course they might present their actions to others in terms of slave morality - because as you say this is an effective tool, and not because they give a shit or feel guilt or shame about being "immoral", cruel and bad.
Right.

I'm not aiming this at any particular political "side" either. If you say you used to think like me as though there was one absolute morality, then I don't think you did used to think like me.

Nope, not saying that. I am saying I used to think

Everyone thinks they're right and on the good path,
That even the people who seemed horrible to me thought they were being moral and were trying to make the world a better place. In fact, I still think Hitler was like that. But I don't think that in general anymore about a lot of people in power. I think many more of them might put on a moral front, but in fact they are just playing a game for their own gain. I would not use that sentence that I just quoted about them. I don't think it fits psychopaths to say they think they are right and on the good path. I think there are a lot of psychopaths in positions of power. I don't think anything that sentence will imply to most people fits either.

Perhaps you meant it to include that psychopaths might think others are silly to worry about being good for moral reasons. I think then that sentence was poorly worded if it was meant to include that.

But if what you meant includes thinking that its better for them not to have morals, ok. But not morally better. And they don't want to spread this less hampered, as they see it, way of being. They are happy others are shackled. And they are not trying to improve things, except for themselves. They are not really social mammals. Not in the full sense.
Last edited by Karpel Tunnel on Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Meno_ » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:05 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Hi Meno,

My opinion of You, Arcturus negates any semblance of impression that it is 'true for You' , I rather think that You are hesitant for some reason to open such a can of worms, reluctant to make the wavelets that can grow into a feared typhoons like wave.


What are you saying here? That I am not exercising my inner dragon? Or better yet, my inner tsunami? :mrgreen:

Are you calling me a coward? lol Explain yourself, Sir! :evilfun:



Sure Arcturus. I have meant to complement Your reticence, and You must have interpreted diagonally, as if such restraint was a negative. That's all. Peace!


Sorry for the misinterpretation not coinciding with the intended!
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Re: Oppose me

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:31 pm

Meno_ wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:Hi Meno,

My opinion of You, Arcturus negates any semblance of impression that it is 'true for You' , I rather think that You are hesitant for some reason to open such a can of worms, reluctant to make the wavelets that can grow into a feared typhoons like wave.


What are you saying here? That I am not exercising my inner dragon? Or better yet, my inner tsunami? :mrgreen:

Are you calling me a coward? lol Explain yourself, Sir! :evilfun:



Sure Arcturus. I have meant to complement Your reticence, and You must have interpreted diagonally, as if such restraint was a negative. That's all. Peace!


Sorry for the misinterpretation not coinciding with the intended!



No need to apologize, Meno. Hakuna Matata. I was not insulted in the least as you can see by my above smilies.

You really only see me here. You do not see me out in the real world albeit one can say in a way that this is also the real world...like a masked ball. Sometimes I like to pick and choose my battles in here depending on what is at stake. I have no problem opening the can of worms though I do not so much like them (though I do save them from drowning when it rains) or making waves. It just depends. I think that we all have different personas and "wear" them for different occasions. We may not always find it but it is a good thing I think to seek some balance. Anyway, I am a Libran. lol

Again Hakuna Matata, my friend.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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