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Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:49 am
by Ecmandu
Ecmandu wrote:Freespirit,

You're trying to sound smart about something you have no idea what you're talking about.

The litmus test is ALWAYS and FOREVER, "is this violating my consent"

If you reject that litmus test...

You have some serious mental issues


You're moving goal posts in a way that is devoid of meaning and purpose ...

Read this his post and know the whole truth.

That's all you need to know.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:45 pm
by FreeSpirit1983
Ecmandu wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Freespirit,

You're trying to sound smart about something you have no idea what you're talking about.

The litmus test is ALWAYS and FOREVER, "is this violating my consent"

If you reject that litmus test...

You have some serious mental issues


You're moving goal posts in a way that is devoid of meaning and purpose ...

Read this his post and know the whole truth.

That's all you need to know.


Your quoting yourself now?

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:02 pm
by Ecmandu
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Freespirit,

You're trying to sound smart about something you have no idea what you're talking about.

The litmus test is ALWAYS and FOREVER, "is this violating my consent"

If you reject that litmus test...

You have some serious mental issues


You're moving goal posts in a way that is devoid of meaning and purpose ...

Read this his post and know the whole truth.

That's all you need to know.


Your quoting yourself now?


I've noticed a couple things in this thread.

First, you have avoided my reverse wager posts like the plague.

Second, you're not man/woman enough to admit that in a world that violates anyone's consent, that the leadership is wrong.

You don't see the world/life with clear eyes, you've been radicalized.

Your mind is no different than a jihadist.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:22 pm
by FreeSpirit1983
I have addressed your absurd reverse wager. There is no evidence for it. There is tons of evidence for the most important man who ever lived. Jesus Christ.

You're not credible in any logical way. No offense.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:06 pm
by promethean75
if you could go ahead and read silhouette's second post in this thread again, that would be great

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:44 pm
by Arcturus Descending
Free Spirit,

But Christianity and Islam both believe that atheists are going to Hell


What do you believe?

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:32 pm
by Ecmandu
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:I have addressed your absurd reverse wager. There is no evidence for it. There is tons of evidence for the most important man who ever lived. Jesus Christ.

You're not credible in any logical way. No offense.


Evidence?

The reverse wager (unlike Pascal's wager) is not up for discussion. It's true BY DEFINITION!!

Good Atheists by definition have a MORE inherent goodness than good believers in god and/or karma.

This means that the BEST choice is to be an atheist.

I'm not absurd, you're absurd, the wager is absurd.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:45 pm
by Arcturus Descending
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:
phyllo wrote:
No. Heaven or hell are what we choose. It's completely up to us. Atheists that continuously reject God are rejecting heaven.

I chuckle when atheists all claim they're good people. All of us have huge flaws.
That's pretty sad.

I know lots of non-Christians who are decent, good people. It seems to me that God ought to give them a break and let them into heaven. What harm would it do? His house has many rooms.


God won't override their free will. I certainly don't think all non-Christians are choosing hell but I do think the average Richard Dawkins internet atheist does.

They clearly are choosing hell.


It seems to me that according to your belief system God has already overrode their free will. If someone does not believe in this God of yours, they are vanquished to hell after death. An atheist, who for whatever reason, emotionally/psychologically/intellectually, just cannot fathom the existence of God, let us say for instance because of what he sees of man's great inhumanity to man, or because he has experienced a sexual predator in the form of a catholic priest, or for whatever reason, is going to spend eternity in hell.

You would appear to give the atheist such a dirty name. Are they all immoral, inhumane people to you?
Are you incapable of seeing that just because one does not want to or cannot believe in God, one can live a good, exemplar life, perhaps even better than some of your so-called christian people? This or that atheist spends his or her life according to a strong moral code, caring about people in a compassionate way, then dies and spends eternity in hell.
You paint the picture of a very unloving, non-compassionate, totally illogical God, Free Spirit.
You might do far more good in the service of God if you painted him in a more "inclusive" "humane" landscape.


I chuckle when atheists all claim they're good people. All of us have huge flaws.


Yes, we do have huge flaws and one of them is Pride. I can certainly understand the atheists' need to exclaim that they are good people when faced with someone who says they are not, they cannot be, simply because they do not believe in God and are going to hell.

Totally illogical to me. How much can this God of yours value goodness and meaningfulness and love and compassion and altruism when its creations are banished to hell forever. Who would ever want to believe in such a God?

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:10 pm
by Ecmandu
Ecmandu wrote:
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:I have addressed your absurd reverse wager. There is no evidence for it. There is tons of evidence for the most important man who ever lived. Jesus Christ.

You're not credible in any logical way. No offense.


Evidence?

The reverse wager (unlike Pascal's wager) is not up for discussion. It's true BY DEFINITION!!

Good Atheists by definition have a MORE inherent goodness than good believers in god and/or karma.

This means that the BEST choice is to be an atheist.

I'm not absurd, you're absurd, the wager is absurd.


I agree with arcturuses take on this as well.

The thing that keeps going through my mind about this thread that you seem to completely not understand ...

Is the song "santa clause is coming to town"

"He knows when you are sleeping

He knows when you're awake

He knows when you've been bad or good

So be GOOD FOR GOODNESS' SAKE"

No wager there, just being good for the sake of being good.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:37 pm
by Karpel Tunnel
Silhouette wrote:
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:My point (and Pascal's) is that we're all going to die. So we may as well believe because of the potential of infinite benefits.

Yes, that's the wager. My point is it's based on false or at least questionable premises, and isn't even a valid wager upon examination.
Though it actually isn't the wager. Not in this general sense, that anyone, believers, doubters, agnostics, atheists should believe because of the potential win and low losses. As I point out early in the thread....

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=195036#p2732525

The wager was intended as an argument not to stop believing. If you already believe, there is no particularly good reason to start dismantling it, according to Pascal. He doesn't understand the wager that he thinks is brilliant.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:43 pm
by FreeSpirit1983
You atheists are risking missing out on the meaning of life just because of your narcissistic egos...

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:14 pm
by Karpel Tunnel
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:You atheists are risking missing out on the meaning of life just because of your narcissistic egos...
Really going ad hom again. OK, you're a whiny 35 year old who can't get his own parents to respect him and thinks that getting pressured by parents to come to family events is a real world problem, talk about narcissism. You really think we should take seriously the psychological analysis of someone who goes online to complain about his parents expecting him to come to more family get-
togethers. Your posts are so Jesus like in spirit and so philosophical like this last one.

And, again, I'm not an atheist. If you meant not to include me, then figure out a way to post so you are clear.

I retract the respectful answer I made to your question in the other thread about you and your family. From my experience of you here, you're probably presenting their behavior in ways that make you look like a victim.

Poor you.

You could learn from the people who responded here how to improve the arguments you made in the OP and later on in the thread. Those arguments were weak and based on a poor read of Pascal.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:28 pm
by FreeSpirit1983
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:You atheists are risking missing out on the meaning of life just because of your narcissistic egos...
Really going ad hom again. OK, you're a whiny 35 year old who can't get his own parents to respect him and thinks that getting pressured by parents to come to family events is a real world problem, talk about narcissism. You really think we should take seriously the psychological analysis of someone who goes online to complain about his parents expecting him to come to more family get-
togethers. Your posts are so Jesus like in spirit and so philosophical like this last one.

And, again, I'm not an atheist. If you meant not to include me, then figure out a way to post so you are clear.

I retract the respectful answer I made to your question in the other thread about you and your family. From my experience of you here, you're probably presenting their behavior in ways that make you look like a victim.

Poor you.

You could learn from the people who responded here how to improve the arguments you made in the OP and later on in the thread. Those arguments were weak and based on a poor read of Pascal.


You're wrong as per usual. Your insults are more evidence of your narcissism and inferior intellect.

Your pantheism is the same as atheism. Don't try to deny what you are. I hope you will change.

Your post has been reported to the mods.

Please go find another forum to pollute.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:57 pm
by Silhouette
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:You atheists are risking missing out on the meaning of life just because of your narcissistic egos...

Karpel is right that this is an ad hom, "because of your narcissistic egos" as a reason is by definition what he identified.

What would you say the meaning of life is?

And did my post explaining my views on life and death not resonate at all with you?

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:04 pm
by FreeSpirit1983
Silhouette wrote:
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:You atheists are risking missing out on the meaning of life just because of your narcissistic egos...

Karpel is right that this is an ad hom, "because of your narcissistic egos" as a reason is by definition what he identified.

What would you say the meaning of life is?

And did my post explaining my views on life and death not resonate at all with you?


I think the meaning of life is to love God and love your neighbor so you live with God for eternity.

Your views on life and death represent atheism and that I don't agree with.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:41 pm
by Silhouette
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:Your views on life and death represent atheism and that I don't agree with.

Is it because they represent atheism that you don't agree with them?

You mentioned you'd moved on from my "kind" of thinking - have you considered that you have emotional reasons to dismiss them?

FreeSpirit1983 wrote:I think the meaning of life is to love God and love your neighbor so you live with God for eternity.

Love is nice, if there's anything that Christianity is good at, it's persuading love. You don't need Christianity for it, but if you have trouble with a lack of love, Christianity would probably help you.

Living socially is also good, other primates do it, so it makes sense that we will too with or without religion.

Again, it's a kind of "sublimation" to project it through an external entity in order to validate it. You don't need that, unless you do?

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:50 pm
by FreeSpirit1983
Silhouette wrote:
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:Your views on life and death represent atheism and that I don't agree with.

Is it because they represent atheism that you don't agree with them?

You mentioned you'd moved on from my "kind" of thinking - have you considered that you have emotional reasons to dismiss them?

FreeSpirit1983 wrote:I think the meaning of life is to love God and love your neighbor so you live with God for eternity.

Love is nice, if there's anything that Christianity is good at, it's persuading love. You don't need Christianity for it, but if you have trouble with a lack of love, Christianity would probably help you.

Living socially is also good, other primates do it, so it makes sense that we will too with or without religion.

Again, it's a kind of "sublimation" to project it through an external entity in order to validate it. You don't need that, unless you do?


I don't believe I have emotional reasons to dismiss atheism. I believe that logic and reason compels one to be a Christian because of the enormous benefits.

We do need Christianity to love fully. We need to love God in a community. He sent His son to the Earth to teach us how to love.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:37 pm
by Silhouette
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:I don't believe I have emotional reasons to dismiss atheism. I believe that logic and reason compels one to be a Christian because of the enormous benefits.

We do need Christianity to love fully. We need to love God in a community. He sent His son to the Earth to teach us how to love.

Okay, just thought I'd ask. It's interesting that logic and reason led me away from them. Assuming we are both flawless logicians, for argument's sake - that would only leave the emotional component to differentiate our respective directions.

Sending his son to Earth to teach us how to love by giving us a guilt trip seems manipulative. I know how to love anyway - I don't need someone to make me feel bad to trick me into it.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:47 pm
by FreeSpirit1983
Silhouette wrote:
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:I don't believe I have emotional reasons to dismiss atheism. I believe that logic and reason compels one to be a Christian because of the enormous benefits.

We do need Christianity to love fully. We need to love God in a community. He sent His son to the Earth to teach us how to love.

Okay, just thought I'd ask. It's interesting that logic and reason led me away from them. Assuming we are both flawless logicians, for argument's sake - that would only leave the emotional component to differentiate our respective directions.

Sending his son to Earth to teach us how to love by giving us a guilt trip seems manipulative. I know how to love anyway - I don't need someone to make me feel bad to trick me into it.


How is Jesus a guilt trip? I don't get your logic.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:48 am
by Silhouette
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:How is Jesus a guilt trip? I don't get your logic.

What is Jesus's message?

Vicarious redemption: he deliberately got himself crucified "for your sins". Any sin you may commit, "it's okay"... because Jesus literally got tortured horribly to death in the ultimate sacrifice to take your sin upon himself and be punished on your behalf.

Oh it's no biggie... no guilt trip.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:55 am
by FreeSpirit1983
Silhouette wrote:
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:How is Jesus a guilt trip? I don't get your logic.

What is Jesus's message?

Vicarious redemption: he deliberately got himself crucified "for your sins". Any sin you may commit, "it's okay"... because Jesus literally got tortured horribly to death in the ultimate sacrifice to take your sin upon himself and be punished on your behalf.

Oh it's no biggie... no guilt trip.


Jesus's message was to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:42 am
by Ecmandu
Free spirit,

Oh my! Are we in a scripture war right now?

https://biblehub.com/luke/14-26.htm

I would posit this to you freespirit, you basically have 6 people from all walks of life and very different psychologies disagreeing with you.

Maybe this isn't the right forum for you.

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:53 am
by FreeSpirit1983
Ecmandu wrote:Free spirit,

Oh my! Are we in a scripture war right now?

https://biblehub.com/luke/14-26.htm

I would posit this to you freespirit, you basically have 6 people from all walks of life and very different psychologies disagreeing with you.

Maybe this isn't the right forum for you.


You have to take Scripture in context. You can't just post a line or two. That verse is Jesus teaching that we must love Him more than we love our own family. That doesn't mean we don't love our family, just that we love Him the most.

This is an atheist forum and an atheist world, so I will always be outnumbered :)

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:59 am
by Ecmandu
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Free spirit,

Oh my! Are we in a scripture war right now?

https://biblehub.com/luke/14-26.htm

I would posit this to you freespirit, you basically have 6 people from all walks of life and very different psychologies disagreeing with you.

Maybe this isn't the right forum for you.


You have to take Scripture in context. You can't just post a line or two. That verse is Jesus teaching that we must love Him more than we love our own family. That doesn't mean we don't love our family, just that we love Him the most.

This is an atheist forum and an atheist world, so I will always be outnumbered :)


You, of all the millions of theologians and translators have the only different and correct version here.

That the word is not "hate" it's just "love me more"

That's what you're going with?

You're the only person on earth who reads Greek correctly?

That's your big finish?

Re: Pascal's Wager is brilliant!

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:04 am
by FreeSpirit1983
Ecmandu wrote:
FreeSpirit1983 wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Free spirit,

Oh my! Are we in a scripture war right now?

https://biblehub.com/luke/14-26.htm

I would posit this to you freespirit, you basically have 6 people from all walks of life and very different psychologies disagreeing with you.

Maybe this isn't the right forum for you.


You have to take Scripture in context. You can't just post a line or two. That verse is Jesus teaching that we must love Him more than we love our own family. That doesn't mean we don't love our family, just that we love Him the most.

This is an atheist forum and an atheist world, so I will always be outnumbered :)


You, of all the millions of theologians and translators have the only different and correct version here.

That the word is not "hate" it's just "love me more"

That's what you're going with?

You're the only person on earth who reads Greek correctly?

That's your big finish?


Yes, because it's consistent with the rest of the Gospels and what Jesus said.

Atheists always take 1 verse out of context as if it proves their ignorance to be true.