Biological Will

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Re: Biological Will

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:55 am

That's also the difference between laws and codes of conduct.

Codes of conduct are adopted by castlemen willingly, to make doing the thang thang not so hard. The moment the tension disappears it becomes pointless.

Laws are imposed on people considered not to have enough of a stake in anything worthwhile to willingly determine their conduct.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby promethean75 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:03 am

the above (wu-tang incident) is a simulacrum and therefore a depreciation of the symbolism it attempts to stand for. a hyperbole, in a sense. modern, histrionic theater to reproduce metaphors that were once rich with meaning and substance. it used to be that people could and did have real, ruthless power. today, however, what we have are variations of a charade. the rapper, minus the opportunity provided to him by the capitalist simulacrum, would be nothing of the sort of symbol and/or archetype presented in the simulacrum. he'd not be the superhero on the poster in every black kid's room... but an unknown working at taco bell and driving a 1998 corolla.

but back in the day, the hero did not become what he was with assistance, with the opportunity being given to him in the form of a gimmick. he was a hero under any circumstances, not the 'presentation' of one.

capitalism through revolutionizing the entertainment industry has brought about the necessity of the simulacrum in order to sustain it's profit motivated commodity production. it eliminates any possibility for heroism and then reproduces symbols of it which it then sells to those who can't be heroes. but it doesn't matter that they aren't heroes. all that matters is that they think they're heroes. the mesmerizing power of media and art in the modern world is the machine that keeps this charade going.

the simulacrum then becomes a simulacra; what the image seeks to duplicate loses its origins due to the nature of the image as a charade. finally the symbol itself gives way to a bastardized image, and the copy is mistaken as the real... as the thing that is exalted through the image.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:10 am

Try to tell me, in no more than two sentences, what that was a refutation of.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Jakob » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:25 pm

promethean75 wrote:jakobson has a point, sil. the thesis of determinism is not something we reason a posteriori. we infer it, but we can't confirm it. nonetheless - and here is where freewillists strike me as silly - we experience and witness such consistent contiguity of events in the natural world that we'd (they'd) be rather unfounded to assume that our choices merely correspond to neural events rather than being causally contiguous with/to them. in short, why would an exception be made for me when i move about in the world... but i'd not hesitate to say the fire caused the heat, or gravity caused the ball to fall, or magma movement caused tectonic shifts, or carbon emissions cause the greenhouse effect.

this seems unfair to the heat, the ball, the plates, and the greenhouse effect. i feel obligated to say these things too have their own freewill.

This is a moment I appreciate. I withheld my indignation to Sil and merely flat out stated my objection. Result is that Promethean accepts responsibility and at least acknowledges the facts.
"the thesis of determinism is not something we reason a posteriori. we infer it, but we can't confirm it."

Thats all I think anyone can accomplish here, both parties acknowledging the basic facts.

Beyond that, it really becomes philosophical modelling, and there question is largely of what value is your position to yourself. In this sense some pertinent things have been said by the deterministic part, Ill gladly acknowledge that now that the epistemological point has been recognized.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Silhouette » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:16 pm

Jakob wrote:Silhouette, you post and, I realize now, your entire position relies on the assumption that determinism and scientific method are the same thing.

I think you would benefit from rereading without-music's thread more than from me explaining why science is not remotely adequate to philosophy in this sense. At least, it would spare me the trouble of dispelling such an immense straw man.

Thank you, Jakob, for offering the source to try to help me out + "withholding any indignation". However, I read the opening post and a few more further down the first page to find nothing I did not already know, and searched for the word "Determinism" in the whole 11 pages and came up short... As such, I'm not certain that trawling through 253 posts is necessarily going to enlighten me as efficiently as you might have thought - as to any assumptions of mine about Determinism and the Scientific method. Maybe since you had the advantage of having contributed to the thread on various occasions, there's certain points, posts or pages in particular that you can point to, to waste my time less.

Fortunately though, it's not true that I assume Determinism and the Scientific Method are the same thing in the first place. So no need, though I understand why you might have thought that I thought this - because they are so intertwined.

Determinism is more what one looks for in applying the Scientific Method - or rather it is correlation that is being tested and causation only hypothesised after extensive tinkering with variables to make sure no fallacies of Questionable Cause emerge. However that's not to say that causation (what determines what) cannot emerge with such statistical significance after extensively testing all these hypotheses that we can come up with a theory - and by now many theories are firmly established, even to the point of some things having such ubiquitous prevalence as to earn consideration as physical law. But even then I am not about to say any of this induction is ever perfect - which is my entire philosophy.

I would have thought that I would have communicated this to everyone here by this point: that models of Discrete Experience are imperfect quantifications and qualifications of Continuous Experience. I am not saying that Determinism is IN Continuous Experience like an absolute, I am saying that it's amazing how any discrete modelling of Continuous Experience works at all - nevermind to the extent that Determinism does so much more than anything else. I am not in the business of proclaiming direct knowledge of "the really real", to use without-music's term. I am in the business of evaluating how relatively well indirect modelling maps what we experience. Whatever Continuous Experience "is doing", it's describable by Determinism to far greater effect than Free Will, which has some serious problems that I listed in my last post on this thread. So relativity is the key here - not any "Ontological Tyranny" that you seem to be under the impression that I am thinking in terms of.

The thing about Ontology is that it's inextricable from Epistemology. You can't say anything about "what is" without having a justification about how you know it is, and you can't proclaim knowledge without it being about "what is" and without knowledge being something in the first place.
So with Epistemology so central here, you have to establish what the rules are for something being knowable.

It just so happens that the Scientific Method was adapted solely and expressly for this very purpose - things have to be testable, repeatable, falsifiable etc. - and said "things" are connections between discretely isolated variables that amount to causation only after we are very sure of the nature of the correlations: what determines what. Determinism is what is being looked for as the very foundation of Epistemology - we want to be able to describe, explain, predict and thus manipulate. This is the bit that you will like: our values are similarly inextricable from Ontology and Epistemology. What "is" must be known, what's known must "be", what "is" is what is valuable, and our knowledge of it is founded in what is valuable.

So we see Determinism is a central value to what we know about what is - the most valuable, the most knowledge about the most of what is: the more we have the better. The Scientific Method is how we make sure. So not the same thing.

Free Will, lacking a sufficient degree of Determinism, falls behind.

This isn't to say something cannot emerge that isn't Determinism that does what it does, but better. But the lesser degree of explanatory power that Free Will has will not replace it. This is what is meant by Popper's Falsificationism: that something can come along and replace an inferior theory like Determinism did to Free Will, and Einsteinian relativity did to Newtonian physics.
So I still am not convinced that Determinism is unfalsifiable.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:08 am

Why are some (few) Free but most others are Slaves (Determinists)?

Before answering this, what leads the Few to "believe" in Freedom while most do not, and are mere 'agents' of causality? The thing that leads humans to believe in freedom is Victory, Achievement, Success, and Excellence: Nobility. Some individuals are imbued with a sense of Pride, an Inheritance. Most humans are not. Most people are born, but have no greatness underneath them. This is the Average, the Common, the Norm. Because of the lack of pride of Normalcy, so too does this bleed into the concepts of Freedom and Determinism. Those who are lackluster, lacking success, lacking pride, will therefore seek-out pride in another. Where else but the One-God, Judæo-Christianity, or any religion of the masses?

If one lacks their own Pride, they seek it in another, and then through another. This is why, in Abrahamism, Freedom is granted only after Absolute Submissions. It's an apparent contradiction and fallacy. You are free, but only after you are a complete slave to God. These contradictions pop-up frequently by 'Determinists', like Silhouette. Silhouette is more extreme though, denying any-and-all possibilities of individual freedom or "freedom outside God/Science".


A sense of Freedom develops when a rare group, a Few of humanity, begins defying the odds. The Masses say to the Few, "it's not possible", "you are not Free". These are the Nay-sayers, like Prometheus and Silhouette, who want to drag everybody-else down with them. The mentality is: "If I cannot be Free, then nobody else can". So the masses are very sensitive to the Few, the Free. Like a mass of zombies sniffing out healthy flesh and blood, wanting to consume it. The Masses of humanity fear Freedom. They secretly hate and despise anybody who speaks positively about it, who absolve and promote it.

Freedom is a threat to the Masses.


Modernity has a blaring contradiction. On one hand, the Liberal-Left claim to support Freedom, and claim themselves as Advocates, but when put to the test or challenged, they balk and retreat into "Determinism/Science/Causality". Then they expose themselves. They don't really believe in Freedom. They only claim to, insofar as it pushes a political agenda (usually contrary to their own self-interests).
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:17 am

Heroes

The Masses of humanity, average, say to the Few, "No, it cannot be done." Then the Rare, the Few, achieve it. Do the masses then shift? Do they admit their mistakes? Do they change their minds? No, they move the goal-posts. They play-off the success as "no big deal". "Anybody could have done it, after all." The reason for this, the "Cause", is because the Masses will cling to Security, and die for it, before entertaining the possibility of Freedom. Slavery is better. Fear is the barrier.

Those who are slaves cannot simply "become free", even after all the locks and chains fall off. Slavery is a mental aspect. No faith, no hope, no chance, in the mind of the masses. These are the "Determinists", who cling to God's Determinism, all existence from One Cause, One Creation. All is Caused. Fate cannot be broken.

Since they have no hope for Freedom, they will readily destroy anybody who begins preaching the possibility.


Better everybody to be slaves, than one Free man.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Silhouette » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:14 am

promethean75 wrote:i just took a look at this 'bailey/motte' thing, and to be honest i don't think they knowingly employ this tactic. i say this because i think they think the bailey is the motte; they aren't able to distinguish the difference between an ordinary, non-philosophical and commonsense use of the word (e.g., i'm free to go grocery shopping or i live in a free country or i pick freely among choices) and a specialized understanding of what the word strictly means in terms of metaphysics.

There's only really one main offender, and oh boy he really doesn't know much of anything - not least that he is committing fallacy after fallacy, not only the Motte and Bailey. There's also his proof by assertion, intentionality fallacy, false dilemma fallacy, ecology fallacy - it's probably easier to list the fallacies he doesn't routinely commit. And it's so adorable when he tries to call fallacies in those who disagree with him and he fucks it up so hard... :lol: You know that image of the child with the saucepan on his head hitting it with a spoon and shaking a tamborine? I just can't shake it on the rare occasion I actually waste my time reading the same reiterated post of his - and it sounds like he's really trying his best, bless him. But as you'll have noticed, in the same way that the US army allegedly didn't accept those with an IQ under 85 because the costs didn't justify the results in training recruits, after extensive testing on my part I concluded that he is unable to learn and I no longer speak with him even though he's so desperate for my attention. I figure he's free (in his incomplete sense) to tantrum away and project his frustrations on others, he's doing no harm so I just let him be to soothe himself through repetition. Other Free Will advocates are fine in comparison, it just seems like there's a lack of familiarity with the scientific method from what I can tell.

But yes, you're absolutely right there's a general feel of simply being more comfortable with the belief that they have Free Will. On the subject of control, I made the ironic observation that - given misguided accusations of Determinists being "slaves" and Free Will advocates able to be "masters", that the reins of causation bring to mind being controlled in the slave and they bring to mind the ability to take control to the master... so basically it's an inverted analogy at best - but again there's only really one poster special enough to be trying that one. Causation gives control - like you say it just eliminates any centre to it. The self is still just as present as it is for the Free Will advocate: a decision making agent that can be creative and individual, that can take charge and get things done, just not out of nowhere, or circularly - as if the self makes the self into itself somehow. Influences influence - the self included - it's not intellectually difficult, but the emotional component gets in the way. You just need to realise that you lose no control, you're just part of the chain of control, with some at the top and others at the bottom, each just as determinable to change their lot as the other dependent on conditions both internal and external. I think there's a fear that something is lost when you think past Free Will, when in fact nothing is.

I like the Nietzschean comment of yours, about moral judgment - I seem to remember the terminology was something like the religious instinct? A form of revenge taken by the downtrodden, that the winners aren't ultimately the winners, because they will be morally judged for their oppressing actions and reap the punishment that the downtrodden are unable to exact on them during their time on earth. He wrote Beyond Good and Evil to get past the nonsense of Free Will and other religious concepts that are not worldly - in the first chapter he specifically denounces Free Will.
1) How about this one from Part 18 of Chapter 1: "...the hundred times refuted theory of 'free will'...".
2) Or from Part 21: "...get beyond the peasant simplicity of this celebrated concept 'free will' and banish it from one's mind".
3) He also speaks of the causa sui that I've been referring to as this ex nihilo "self" - at the beginning of that same section: "The causa sui is the best self-contradiction hitherto imagined, a kind of logical rape and unnaturalness: but mankind's extravagent pride has manged to get itself deeply and fightfully entangled with precisely this piece of nonsense..." (and it goes on!) SAVAGE :evilfun:
Interestingly he actually goes on to corroborate Experientialism with respect to "cause and effect" being a mythology, as I describe in terms of Discrete Experience being a model of Continuous Experience.
There is no evil for Determinism, at worst there's people who turn out to do terrible things due to influences that are totally understandable and preventable, but it's the attitudes of Free Will and Individualism that just leave people to turn out bad instead of looking into solutions about how to determine such things to not happen. It's a fact that the Free Will attitude does a great deal of needless harm.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:50 am

Slaves are so ardent to defend their Slaves and their Masters, their One-God.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:02 pm

Life is an inherent, intrinsic resistance against Non-existence.
Thus, to live is to resist "Entropy" or the "Negative",
Degenerative/Destructive/Decomposing forces.
To live, is to resist Death.

Simple lifeforms have a simple (Little) resistance.
Complex lifeforms have a complex (Great) resistance.

The form of this living resistance, is Biological Will, meaning Power.
Life is the Will-to-Power. The manifestation of this is the Greater Resistance.
Those who succeed, become more efficient, are identified as Fit/Beautiful/Evolved.
Those who succeed, gain more Power, and thus, gain most Freedom.

A few humans are Free and have great Choice.
The rest are Un-free/Slaves/Determinists.
Choice is a derivative of Freedom/Power.
Choice is the manifestation of Greater Adaptation to an environment.

Thus Freedom is a biological process.


The Determinists/Slavery-defenders, use a Post Hoc Fallacy as their central argument.
They claim that "it all must be caused from the start, a priori".
Thus there is nothing the Free Man (Rare/Fit/Evolved/Noble/Excellent) can do, to prove any degree of freedom.
The Determinists/Slavery-defenders use all their rhetorical "power", to define Freedom as impossible.

This is a lying-strategy. What Determinists/Slavers actually do, is enslave others, in the vain hope they can find satisfaction.
"If I cannot become Free then nobody else can!!!" These types have no Hope, no Faith, no Positive-energy in life.
They are completely Negative entities. They are life-Drainers.


Promethean, Silhouette, peacegirl, and their posse, I count among this type.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:07 pm

My Philosophy is Icarian, of Icarus, shooting high into the Heavens like a Rocket-ship,
Straight toward the Sun, or off into the depths of space.
Others want to pull Icarus down, tell him, "It's impossible".
But the Individual spirit of Icarus is too Great, too Noble, too Powerful.

The slave-mass envies what they will never have; they cannot understand the heroic spirit.
Faith, Hope, Resentiment, Contempt, against those (Naysayers) who say it cannot be done.
It can be done! It will be done!

All will be proven WRONG!
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Re: Biological Will

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:37 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:Why are some (few) Free but most others are Slaves (Determinists)?

Before answering this, what leads the Few to "believe" in Freedom while most do not, and are mere 'agents' of causality? The thing that leads humans to believe in freedom is Victory, Achievement, Success, and Excellence: Nobility. Some individuals are imbued with a sense of Pride, an Inheritance. Most humans are not. Most people are born, but have no greatness underneath them. This is the Average, the Common, the Norm. Because of the lack of pride of Normalcy, so too does this bleed into the concepts of Freedom and Determinism. Those who are lackluster, lacking success, lacking pride, will therefore seek-out pride in another. Where else but the One-God, Judæo-Christianity, or any religion of the masses?

If one lacks their own Pride, they seek it in another, and then through another. This is why, in Abrahamism, Freedom is granted only after Absolute Submissions. It's an apparent contradiction and fallacy. You are free, but only after you are a complete slave to God. These contradictions pop-up frequently by 'Determinists', like Silhouette. Silhouette is more extreme though, denying any-and-all possibilities of individual freedom or "freedom outside God/Science".


A sense of Freedom develops when a rare group, a Few of humanity, begins defying the odds. The Masses say to the Few, "it's not possible", "you are not Free". These are the Nay-sayers, like Prometheus and Silhouette, who want to drag everybody-else down with them. The mentality is: "If I cannot be Free, then nobody else can". So the masses are very sensitive to the Few, the Free. Like a mass of zombies sniffing out healthy flesh and blood, wanting to consume it. The Masses of humanity fear Freedom. They secretly hate and despise anybody who speaks positively about it, who absolve and promote it.

Freedom is a threat to the Masses.


Modernity has a blaring contradiction. On one hand, the Liberal-Left claim to support Freedom, and claim themselves as Advocates, but when put to the test or challenged, they balk and retreat into "Determinism/Science/Causality". Then they expose themselves. They don't really believe in Freedom. They only claim to, insofar as it pushes a political agenda (usually contrary to their own self-interests).

Hahah, you're getting somewhere man. I like this.
Except for Abrahamism notion man because in Jews there is no afterlife. Only Christians and muslims have it. For Jews it is only about ancestry. If your mother is Jewish and descended from the old dudes and their adventures, then you're noble, if not you're well, lets not talk about that. But in Christianity and Islam, all that you need to do is commit your word to a name.

But yeah the main tenet of much Socialist movement was "there is no inborn nobility". I just heard it when I figured if I could understand the Spanish thats on the tv in a Breaking Bad scene, and thats what I made out. "there is no inborn nobility", someone kept repeating that. I think. But I remembered this was the thing it was all about. The USA is on the one hand land of the free and heritage, but this goes away if it isn't a privilege to be born there.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

The thing with he Jews is, their messiah hasn't come. They used to figure ok we wait. But then my great great great (x10) granddad or so taught that this wasn't necessary. To wait, it could happen now. People could start preparing now, for warrior-mode. For taking the temple back from the Assyrians or whatever the assailants were when they left. "Goy" is just a way of talking down on an Assyrian, where you know he is damned powerful but you can't let that stop you.

So thats free will. He broke the rule. And now they have the promised land. Abraham may have been a determinist, but Rebecca was not, she conspired to take birth right from the eldest son by fooling the father. The link of Determinism was broken and the Chosen people was going to be born out of blind will.

Self-chosen. Freedom.
12 tribes, like 12 tasks and 12 months, they planned it well.

Once again, freedom is a rigorous operation.

I know not everyone thinks a Jew is the greatest example of freedom but it takes one to know one, first of all. And I would say even in Jews it appears as an exception. Freedom always has to be the exception to some rule, that is why anarchism is the final prison.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Meno_ » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:58 pm

To Barbarian: Not exactly: There are enlightened people among us , who have carried the orientalism of the Hindu sense of karmic law, and are.able to produce non vested nobility by am inherent possession of transcendental law, like Gandi.

This transcendence has been carried through by lineage, and it is self aware of it's religious and mystical sources.

In that sense freedom has no object, relating logically to it's objective, and the only thing it offers is a silent resistance, where silence offers it's special sense of freedom.

That sense Inn the West has been muted, but the strain is sustained silently, in partially disparate places and people like Christ , who has in his lost years was said to travel the silk road.l, and Schopenhauer, and even Nietzsche's Superman.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Meno_ » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:00 pm

Meno_ wrote:To Barbarian: Not exactly: There are enlightened people among us , who have carried the orientalism of the Hindu sense of karmic law, and are.able to produce non vested nobility by am inherent possession of transcendental law, like Gandi.

This transcendence has been carried through by lineage, and it is self aware of it's religious and mystical sources.

In that sense freedom has no object, relating logically to it's objective, and the only thing it offers is a silent resistance, where silence offers it's special sense of freedom.

That sense Inn the West has been muted, but the strain is sustained silently, in partially disparate places and people like Christ , who has in his lost years was said to travel the silk road.l, and Schopenhauer, and even Nietzsche's Superman.




This is relevant to Baranarians next to last comment.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:01 pm

If you rout it through the mum as the Hebrews did, you get a matriarchal spirit. Thats tough, like Italy.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:03 pm

Asylum cores are broken to -
dispel the
,while, barbarian, and when the coolage dam okay.

;;


;;
(interpunction: poem
)r west aside.

Meno, and, Nemo
I rest my , point. Comma.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Meno_ » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:15 pm

You may rest, Barbarion, but a short pause of evolution does not mean the end of it. Pre- Gnostic , non colliding-colluding processes produce asexuality as an ideal solution for mystics and monks.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:45 am

I always thought the most relevant Jewish figure was Samson.

It is because it is, fuck you. All proud peoples understand this code.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Meno_ » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:19 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I always thought the most relevant Jewish figure was Samson.

It is because it is, fuck you.

Your memo is not worth the virtual paper that it's supposed to be written on. But who cares if such trifle difference is not shared.

So long,
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:33 am

Learn to speak Meno.

Fuck you.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Meno_ » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:38 am

pede, you and guide should form a mutual admiration society. It may generate a few laughs.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:48 am

I should have knzzown.

Never trust a "so long" from a leftist.

At least you had the decency to formulate some coherent sentences there. I do appreciate it.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:49 am

So long.
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Re: Biological Will

Postby barbarianhorde » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:31 am

My dick is like, so long.
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