Biological Will

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Moderator: Only_Humean

Forum rules
Forum Philosophy

Re: Biological Will

Postby Artimas » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:50 pm

promethean75 wrote:Alexa, explain to artimas and urwrong what a category mistake is so they'll stop thinking of 'will' as an ontological noun and/or faculty/agency....

https://youtu.be/zgWwK8mAHrs


The will isn’t a noun, an individual body is, a person.

The will is the functioning of that (noun)body with/by expression(verb) into the physical world around it.

Which is a noun using a verb which this verb is an aspect to it’s being a complex living noun.

We can go language all day if you want. Alexa doesn’t have to describe to me a categorical error because I am not using it as a categorical error. Our language is evolving.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


Image Image
User avatar
Artimas
Emancipator of ignorance and also Chameleon upon the stars
 
Posts: 3751
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:47 pm
Location: Earth, Milky Way

Re: Biological Will

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:12 pm

Meno_ wrote:So all agency acts or representations and propositional evaluations of freedom and determination can only apply to organic materiel and systems.
The application of freedom or determination are equally uncertain, except from the point of arguability.
One would expect the whole difference partial to humam understanding ,- therefore the freedom of strict causality in inorganic sub stance- are equally falacious. Or, am I misunderstanding You? Probably! Tell me why or is it close to an approximation.

Movement is the basic quantification for freedom.

But only organic life, Biology, has "Will". Non-living things, mass, matter, earth, water, air, fire, none of these have "Will". As Promethean already admitted to himself, to say otherwise is an Anthropomorphic Fallacy, which I agree with. Only Life has Will. And because of this, only Life has Agency.

You can posit abstractly that "only life is free" insofar that "only life has will and agency", but I don't necessarily think or agree with that. Freedom is a characteristic of Nature. The heavier/denser/massive an object is, the less 'free' it is conceived to be.

Thus Freedom is metaphysical. "Will" is not. Will is biological, hence this thread....
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Biological Will

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:29 pm

promethean75 wrote:dude, you're still equivocating 'freewill' with physical movement, ability and complexity. none of these quantifiable values change the quality of what the 'will' would be if it existed. you merely have an increase in the expression of the 'will'... not a change in the quality or nature of the 'will'. this means that a living organism does not possess a different kind of 'will' which governs it's behavior, than the kind of 'will' that governs the behavior of rocks and trees and shit. of course, a living organism has more freedom of movement, but this fact in no way means some other kind of 'will' is responsible for it, or that it is 'free'.

That's not true. Organisms that can move of their own accord, have Agency, and therefore Choice. You can step left, right, forward, back. You can do a back flip. None of these actions are 'choices' or possible to non-living matter. A rock can never 'choose' to go left, right, forward, back. It is completely un-free, by comparison. Neither does water, or air, or fire "Choose" where to go. Only in life does 'Choice' appear.

It seems to me you're conflating the organic quality of life, Will, with the elemental forces of existence. You can claim that a rock and a human are subject to "all natural and universal laws, of causality", but that doesn't help your position here. Humans still have Agency, and Choice, thus exponentially more 'freedom' than any non-living thing or object.


promethean75 wrote:and 'desire' is hardly a point of origination of this new kind of 'will' you think exists, for the same kind of forces responsible for the movement of those rocks and shit are responsible for the physiological processes and states in your body that produce such desire. i'm not talking about the intentionality of the thinking and anticipating and planning and foresight involved in the commission of a desired behavior, either. these things are the last stages in a series of physical events in your body that you have no control over, much less any knowledge of - except for correlating mental events with physical events as a neurologist might do when observing regional activity in the brain.

That's the whole point though, that these conversations have been heading.... Silhouette couldn't endure this far.

You can claim that humans or life in general is on some pre-determined 'path' or Fate. But it's not based on Science. Your belief in Pre-Determined Fate is no different than a belief in Free-Will. This is why I explicitly repeat myself, many times now, that the next step is to figure-out, understand, or "determine" all of the ingredients involved that lead one individual to believe this way, and another individual to believe that way. What is the qualification for these beliefs?

For the answer, I point to Master-Slave Dialectics. Some people are freer than others. Freedom is rarer. Most people are happy and content to be Un-free/Determined/Controlled by others. And furthermore, such Controls are representations of the Will-To-Power. Power directly corresponds to "Freedom". Thus the "Freeing of the Will" can be compared to an "Empowering of the Will".


promethean75 wrote: don't know, but based on the evidence i'm making the reasonable inference. we're at a stalemate, if you haven't noticed. only i've got more pieces on the board than you do, so i scored more points. you've got a queen, bishop and five pawns left. i've still got a queen, both rooks and a knight.

hell will freeze over before you convince me that anything is random or chaotic in nature. random in that you can't perceive any pattern or order, or chaotic in that you can't predict any future state... but these are problems of observation, not nature. verily, i say 'indeterminacy' simply can't exist.

but this isn't what your arguing... or rather you're arguing it accidentally by implying there is no causation. in fact, you need causation in order to present an argument for 'freewill' because freewill is not a theory of indeterminism. your problem, which has already been pointed out to you by sil and myself weeks ago, is that you are relying on a kind of substance dualism in order to define your 'agency' here, because you insist that what causes joe to go to the neil young concert is something different than what causes an earthquake. 'course i don't know why joe would want to go to a neil young concert. after the dissolution of crosby, stills, nash and young (or who i like to call 'crosby stole the hash and neil sang'), neil young became an incredible bore.

Except in 20 moves, my pawn will clear a path and become a Queen.... perhaps you can't see it yet.

There are no inherent causes in existence. You seemed to have slipped in the past. Haven't you admitted before, or would now, there is no "inherent purpose" to life???

If you agree there is no "inherent purpose" to life then you must also admit that life is as Un-determined as anything and everything else.


I don't believe in a priori truths. Every "truth" is a Choice, and you always, always put up a risk with every Choice. There is no absolute truth. And so, Existence is Un-determined.

There is no Universal Law. There is no 'force' that applies to all matter. So you can interpret that as "many different categories of matter" if you like.

The Periodic Table of Elements essentially disproves Spinoza's Monadology, and has disproved Ontological arguments, for centuries now.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Biological Will

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:38 pm

I'm very specific when I use 'Will' as a verb and as a noun. Obviously, "Will" is a verb first, and a noun last.

What is meant by "Will" as a Noun, as a thing, as a "Soul/Spirit/Self", is a a long and complex set of moral, ethical, and political values by which every specific individual human consider, evaluates, and then determines the choices they make throughout life.

Thus if you know somebody's Will, then you understand their moral-values, and can begin to predict the more complex choices they make throughout life. Some people choose to lie. Some people choose to cheat. Some people choose to steal. Some people choose this vice over that one. Some people choose this virtue over that one. Etc.

All that combined, added together, summed-up, is what embodies their "Will".


However, the greatest simplification of "Will" is that, Will = Desire/Want/Need.

Is a "Want", a Noun??? Is it an adjective? Is it a description of what a person is, or who a person is???
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Biological Will

Postby Meno_ » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:33 pm

There is no Universal Law. There is no 'force' that applies to all matter. So you can interpret that as "many different categories of matter" if you like.
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5073
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Biological Will

Postby Meno_ » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:34 pm

Meno_ wrote:There is no Universal Law. There is no 'force' that applies to all matter. So you can interpret that as "many different categories of matter" if you like.
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5073
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Biological Will

Postby Meno_ » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:47 pm

Meno_ wrote:
Meno_ wrote:There is no Universal Law. There is no 'force' that applies to all matter. So you can interpret that as "many different categories of matter" if you like.




What about this?



This means that two objects will reach the ground at the same time if they are dropped simultaneously from the same height. ... When air resistance plays a role, the shape of the object becomes important. In air, a feather and a ball do not fall at the same rate.


Course with my uncertainty., principle factored in , I may be seen pernicious, or ok I may be wrong.
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5073
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: Biological Will

Postby Jakob » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:07 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:I'm very specific when I use 'Will' as a verb and as a noun. Obviously, "Will" is a verb first, and a noun last.

What is meant by "Will" as a Noun, as a thing, as a "Soul/Spirit/Self", is a a long and complex set of moral, ethical, and political values by which every specific individual human consider, evaluates, and then determines the choices they make throughout life.

Thus if you know somebody's Will, then you understand their moral-values, and can begin to predict the more complex choices they make throughout life. Some people choose to lie. Some people choose to cheat. Some people choose to steal. Some people choose this vice over that one. Some people choose this virtue over that one. Etc.

All that combined, added together, summed-up, is what embodies their "Will".


So, will is someones valuing. The total of their valuing structure.

So if you want to know someones will, the best thing to do is to map their values.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6991
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: Biological Will

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:42 pm

To Meno,

Yup


To Jakob,

Yup
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Biological Will

Postby Artimas » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:46 pm

Jakob wrote:
Urwrongx1000 wrote:I'm very specific when I use 'Will' as a verb and as a noun. Obviously, "Will" is a verb first, and a noun last.

What is meant by "Will" as a Noun, as a thing, as a "Soul/Spirit/Self", is a a long and complex set of moral, ethical, and political values by which every specific individual human consider, evaluates, and then determines the choices they make throughout life.

Thus if you know somebody's Will, then you understand their moral-values, and can begin to predict the more complex choices they make throughout life. Some people choose to lie. Some people choose to cheat. Some people choose to steal. Some people choose this vice over that one. Some people choose this virtue over that one. Etc.

All that combined, added together, summed-up, is what embodies their "Will".


So, will is someones valuing. The total of their valuing structure.

So if you want to know someones will, the best thing to do is to map their values.


Conscious valuing/values i’d say. This is where semantics gets tricky as well, one can have values but the values not being aligned with them deep down, for example. A child being brought up a certain way to have certain values, if they don’t align with that individual, which a lot of times they don’t, then those values become an entrapment of their identity. We call that byproduct of indoctrination through environment.. which we all have to get out of to understand ourselves as individuals, the disassociation of what is not necessary to the identity one wishes to portray themself as.

So it is very important to be fully conscious of oneself and ones values and attribution.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


Image Image
User avatar
Artimas
Emancipator of ignorance and also Chameleon upon the stars
 
Posts: 3751
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:47 pm
Location: Earth, Milky Way

Re: Biological Will

Postby Artimas » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:53 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Meno_ wrote:So all agency acts or representations and propositional evaluations of freedom and determination can only apply to organic materiel and systems.
The application of freedom or determination are equally uncertain, except from the point of arguability.
One would expect the whole difference partial to humam understanding ,- therefore the freedom of strict causality in inorganic sub stance- are equally falacious. Or, am I misunderstanding You? Probably! Tell me why or is it close to an approximation.

Movement is the basic quantification for freedom.

But only organic life, Biology, has "Will". Non-living things, mass, matter, earth, water, air, fire, none of these have "Will". As Promethean already admitted to himself, to say otherwise is an Anthropomorphic Fallacy, which I agree with. Only Life has Will. And because of this, only Life has Agency.

You can posit abstractly that "only life is free" insofar that "only life has will and agency", but I don't necessarily think or agree with that. Freedom is a characteristic of Nature. The heavier/denser/massive an object is, the less 'free' it is conceived to be.

Thus Freedom is metaphysical. "Will" is not. Will is biological, hence this thread....


Matter without will is still alive, only in primitive form of instinctive behavior that may interact with other matter and overlaps to become complex, which manifested will and life. It’s just a different aspect to consciousness, one we came through and of and now we may manipulate/transmute it as well

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


Image Image
User avatar
Artimas
Emancipator of ignorance and also Chameleon upon the stars
 
Posts: 3751
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:47 pm
Location: Earth, Milky Way

Re: Biological Will

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:06 pm

Where Will is defined as a value system this system will not be absolutely set in stone
There are two variables here : the system itself and the psychology of the individual

There are basically three variations :

A weak value system with a weak individual
A strong value system with a weak individual
A strong value system with a strong individual

There are also more subtle variations as well :

The strength or weakness of an individual changes over time although they may predominantly be only one of these
The value system may have some principles added or removed or modified or it could even be discarded for another one
All of these variables are what we have to deal with in order to become the best version of ourselves we can possibly be

They are our eternal attempt to understand the nature of existence in the here and now as it applies to us both collectively and individually
To understand the human condition which guarantees that there will be suffering and then how to rationalise and contain it as a consequence
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Biological Will

Postby promethean75 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:00 pm

Yup


So one's freewill is relative to the kind of value, the quality of value, the number of values, or all/some of the above?

So then does the freewill decrease for bob when joe says of bob's values: 'no, you have bad values and/or not enough values'?

Who is the arbiter and judge of the degree of freewill, here?

These are well placed rhetorical questions, but I think we can now say that values have nothing to do with freewill.
promethean75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

Re: Biological Will

Postby surreptitious75 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:30 pm

I think the single most dominant factor here is psychology

A strong individual will have greater control over their options - this is not the same as saying they have more options
A weak individual will have lesser control over their options - but it also depends on what their particular choices are
A strong individual is more likely to think rationally and a weak one is more likely to think irrationally - but not always

And none of this is set in stone - multiple of all the possible outcomes for all free will choices by the total number of people making those
choices and you are none the wiser and this is why psychology is regarded as a soft science - too many variables and not enough constants
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: Biological Will

Postby Jakob » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:09 pm

Artimas - the difference between natural and unnatural values is as between life and death.

What value-prisoners need is to rebirth their will into their own natures proper values. This is a cathartic and long lasting process, probably related to what the yogis call the kundalini, the fiery snake which, if awakened at the bottom of the spine, begins to burn through all the falsehoods on a slow and painful but more than that liberating process of rebirth through consecutively more exalted value systems, from root to crown.

I think my realization that valuing is the core of things would have been an Anahata type insight. It felt like it. Nearly died before I could jump to the conclusion. Anyway, all or nothing values, this is what triggers us the most, if a value is so hot that we would die in our approach - get rich or die trying is expression of this in a primitive sense, sacrificing oneself in the saviour of ones nation is a higher sort - but this is how we see that will is superior to mere desire or want or need: we relate most to seeing others overcoming their needs and desires and wants in service of something that truly matters - the valuing of which is ones very soul.

Selling ones soul, selling ones will - letting go of the highest values for "realistic" ones.


A funny metaphor occurs to me;

a car and a ravine, and a ramp, and two sets of fuel.
Fuel 1 is ones natural valuing, which might or might not be strong enough to drive the car up the ramp and across the ravine.
Fuel 2 is ones conditioned valuing, which is sure to be weak enough for the car to never even reach the ravine.
Most people run on 2. Its only natural. But Fuel 1 is what drove human accomplishment, and evolution itself.
Last edited by Jakob on Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6991
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: Biological Will

Postby Artimas » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:12 pm

promethean75 wrote:
Yup


So one's freewill is relative to the kind of value, the quality of value, the number of values, or all/some of the above?

So then does the freewill decrease for bob when joe says of bob's values: 'no, you have bad values and/or not enough values'?

Who is the arbiter and judge of the degree of freewill, here?

These are well placed rhetorical questions, but I think we can now say that values have nothing to do with freewill.


Universal truth, ignorance and intent is what plays a role in those values in being more or less free. Not the values alone. Conscious values, not just values.

Nature, is the judge by trial and error. Psyche as well.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


Image Image
User avatar
Artimas
Emancipator of ignorance and also Chameleon upon the stars
 
Posts: 3751
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:47 pm
Location: Earth, Milky Way

Re: Biological Will

Postby Artimas » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:18 pm

Jakob wrote:Artimas - the difference between natural and unnatural values is as between life and death.

What value-prisoners need is to rebirth their will into their own natures proper values. This is a cathartic and long lasting process, probably related to what the yogis call the kundalini, the fiery snake which, if awakened at the bottom of the spine, begins to burn through all the falsehoods on a slow and painful but more than that liberating process of rebirth through consecutively more exalted value systems, from root to crown.

I think my realization that valuing is the core of things would have been an Anahata type insight. It felt like it. Nearly died before I could jump to the conclusion. Anyway, all or nothing values, this is what triggers us the most, if a value is so hot that we would die in our approach - get rich or die trying is expression of this in a primitive sense, sacrificing oneself in the saviour of ones nation is a higher sort - but this is how we see that will is superior to mere desire or want or need: we relate most to seeing others overcoming their needs and desires and wants in service of something that truly matters - the valuing of which is ones very soul.

Selling ones soul, selling ones will - letting go of the highest values for "realistic" ones.


Agree, that’s what I called a sacrifice of the present for the future, in my thread “Impossibility of a possibility, why?” Thread. It’s all value attribution and most are not conscious of it, which is the main issue. For if one or most were conscious of it, most would see how little or meaningless(self destructive) such is and how much time they have wasted for the present alone instead of for the future or something greater than oneself

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


Image Image
User avatar
Artimas
Emancipator of ignorance and also Chameleon upon the stars
 
Posts: 3751
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:47 pm
Location: Earth, Milky Way

Re: Biological Will

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:24 am

To promethean,

Yup




Freedom is relative to an individual. For a devoted and loyal soldier, deserting is not a choice. And for a supermodel watching her weight at a restaurant, desserting is not a choice.
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Biological Will

Postby MagsJ » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:10 am

Lol
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get that time back, and I may need it for something at some point in time. Wait! What?

--MagsJ
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist
 
Posts: 18285
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1

Re: Biological Will

Postby promethean75 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:39 am

Universal truth, ignorance and intent is what plays a role in those values in being more or less free. Not the values alone. Conscious values, not just values.


I have to disagree twice, then. Not only do values have nothing to do with freewill, but value statements are non-cognitive and incapable of expressing truths. Attitudes, preferences, tastes, opinions, yes, ... but these are what non-cognitivists call 'non-declarative speech acts'. Such statements are equivalent to and amount to something like exclamations. A couple examples:

'Killing is wrong' = 'boo you suck, you murderer!'

'Loving your neighbor is good = 'hurray you are so awesome!'

(See the 'hurray/boo theory' or what's formally called 'emotivism')
promethean75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

Re: Biological Will

Postby Artimas » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:46 am

promethean75 wrote:
Universal truth, ignorance and intent is what plays a role in those values in being more or less free. Not the values alone. Conscious values, not just values.


I have to disagree twice, then. Not only do values have nothing to do with freewill, but value statements are non-cognitive and incapable of expressing truths. Attitudes, preferences, tastes, opinions, yes, ... but these are what non-cognitivists call 'non-declarative speech acts'. Such statements are equivalent to and amount to something like exclamations. A couple examples:

'Killing is wrong' = 'boo you suck, you murderer!'

'Loving your neighbor is good = 'hurray you are so awesome!'

(See the 'hurray/boo theory' or what's formally called 'emotivism')


It’s the availability, intent, universal truths and ignorance.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


Image Image
User avatar
Artimas
Emancipator of ignorance and also Chameleon upon the stars
 
Posts: 3751
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:47 pm
Location: Earth, Milky Way

Re: Biological Will

Postby Jakob » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:06 pm

Artimas wrote:
Jakob wrote:Artimas - the difference between natural and unnatural values is as between life and death.

What value-prisoners need is to rebirth their will into their own natures proper values. This is a cathartic and long lasting process, probably related to what the yogis call the kundalini, the fiery snake which, if awakened at the bottom of the spine, begins to burn through all the falsehoods on a slow and painful but more than that liberating process of rebirth through consecutively more exalted value systems, from root to crown.

I think my realization that valuing is the core of things would have been an Anahata type insight. It felt like it. Nearly died before I could jump to the conclusion. Anyway, all or nothing values, this is what triggers us the most, if a value is so hot that we would die in our approach - get rich or die trying is expression of this in a primitive sense, sacrificing oneself in the saviour of ones nation is a higher sort - but this is how we see that will is superior to mere desire or want or need: we relate most to seeing others overcoming their needs and desires and wants in service of something that truly matters - the valuing of which is ones very soul.

Selling ones soul, selling ones will - letting go of the highest values for "realistic" ones.


Agree, that’s what I called a sacrifice of the present for the future, in my thread “Impossibility of a possibility, why?” Thread. It’s all value attribution and most are not conscious of it, which is the main issue. For if one or most were conscious of it, most would see how little or meaningless(self destructive) such is and how much time they have wasted for the present alone instead of for the future or something greater than oneself

Yes. Thankfully when one awakens, the reality is so overwhelmingly beautiful that one tends to forgive oneself for not seeing it before. The magnificence of truth cleans the soul.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6991
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: Biological Will

Postby promethean75 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:59 pm

Freedom is relative to an individual. For a devoted and loyal soldier, deserting is not a choice. And for a supermodel watching her weight at a restaurant, desserting is not a choice.


sure they're choices. are you saying it's logically impossible for a soldier to decide that deserting his post is what he should do, or a supermodel to decide she wants to eat a big 'ol slice of blueberry cheesecake?

but again, 'choices' are acts of freewill. instead, the same forces that influence the commission of an act also influence the formation of the intentional structures that correspond to the act. the soldier might suddenly begin thinking that the war is wrong, and bail. the supermodel might suddenly begin thinking that being a fatty is not so bad, and order that cheesecake. and notice that neither of them ever begin or initiate their changing of mind. the 'thought' comes when it wants... not when they want it. one does not decide to change their mind. or rather, one does not think 'okay now i am going to begin reconsidering my decision'. a freewill act of changing one's mind would involve an infinite regress; in order to prevent my decision from being formally determined (caused) by something other than my own agency, i'd have to choose to choose to choose to choose to choose, etc.
promethean75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

Re: Biological Will

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:19 pm

The "Original Cause" of any choice is never fully known by anybody, therefore not a matter of infinite-regress, and so it is also never fully known whether a choice is freely-willed or fully-determined.

Again, this is the Epistemological argument/fallacy of Determinism. If you don't know, then the choice is, at least, a matter of belief. The soldier believes it is a choice, or it is not a choice. The supermodel believes it is a choice, or is not a choice. So then, logically, what are the bases for these beliefs? What (Causes) "lead" one to believe in free-will or determinism. And furthermore, what is the difference between a "freely-made" choice versus a "determined-choice"?

For the examples I gave, answers can be given. The soldier, by definition of "Being a soldier" or moreover "Being a GOOD soldier", does not have a choice to desert. Just like "Being a GOOD supermodel", does not have a choice to dessert.

By definition of the label, the identity, you MUST do certain things. And this would be the basis of your "Determinism".
Urwrongx1000
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1634
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Biological Will

Postby promethean75 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:32 pm

alright man. i see a rock rolling down a hill, or a branch blowing in the wind, or a grasshopper jump off a flower. i see things moving in space. then i see my hand raise up. i see something else moving in space. now what is it about my hand such that what makes it move is something different than what makes the other three things move? let's say the movement of the hand comes after mental event 'choice to move hand'.

what is that mental event like, and what comes before it? is it like one of the fundamental forces that governs the movement of the other three things... or is it a special force? and is there some other event that comes before it that is not mental event 'choice to choose'? or, if there is an event like this that causes the choice, who or what is making that choice?

you have to either assert that everything in the universe 'chooses' to move (which makes you something like a panpsychist), or, things that 'choose' are not the essential causes of the actions and movements that follow a choice. if you don't assert this, your only other option is some variety of cartesian dualism.

you know a neurologist can hook you up to a machine and with the push of a button, not only make you laugh, but make you think you chose to laugh. well i don't know about that second part but the first part is real shit. there's an old black and white video of the experiment. chick just starts laughing as soon as he throws the switch. and there is a natural switch (cause) for every event that happens in your brain... even the event that consists of you thinking you're choosing to do something.

i'm almost beginning to share biggy's concern that maybe a lot of this is just an exercise in irony? shirley you can't still believe there is freewill. or maybe you're still confusing freedom, free speech, free sample packs, right of the free press, free estimates, freeways, and buy one get one free, with freewill, i dunno.
promethean75
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]