New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Artimas » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:48 pm

Ecmandu wrote:@artimas,

That's the whole point of my consent argument.

Everyone can check reality on a self evident FOR THEM, falsification at any time.

So here's the rub. Abusers of people hate self evident, self empowering falsifications of abuse.

Arguments through non contradiction also apply to all of us, it is the higher power of all existence.

The problem is, with you and iambiguous, people want the power instead of logic having the power.


Power is only power if understood.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:55 pm

Artimas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:@artimas,

That's the whole point of my consent argument.

Everyone can check reality on a self evident FOR THEM, falsification at any time.

So here's the rub. Abusers of people hate self evident, self empowering falsifications of abuse.

Arguments through non contradiction also apply to all of us, it is the higher power of all existence.

The problem is, with you and iambiguous, people want the power instead of logic having the power.


Power is only power if understood.


Let's assume that's true.

Power is only understood in one of two ways...

Consent violation

Or the eradication of consent violation.

The only one people want is the latter, at least after enough life experience
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Meno_ » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:58 pm

Artimas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:@artimas,

That's the whole point of my consent argument.

Everyone can check reality on a self evident FOR THEM, falsification at any time.

So here's the rub. Abusers of people hate self evident, self empowering falsifications of abuse.

Arguments through non contradiction also apply to all of us, it is the higher power of all existence.

The problem is, with you and iambiguous, people want the power instead of logic having the power.


Power is only power if understood.



Right.
Logic has absolute power since it connects alpha and omega, because logic, presymbolic always adds to effects of it, ideally its most significant and least noticeable proximate effect.

Put a little differently .
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Meno_ » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:58 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
Artimas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:@artimas,

That's the whole point of my consent argument.

Everyone can check reality on a self evident FOR THEM, falsification at any time.

So here's the rub. Abusers of people hate self evident, self empowering falsifications of abuse.

Arguments through non contradiction also apply to all of us, it is the higher power of all existence.

The problem is, with you and iambiguous, people want the power instead of logic having the power.


Power is only power if understood.


Let's assume that's true.

Power is only understood in one of two ways...

Consent violation

Or the eradication of consent violation.

The only one people want is the latter, at least after enough life experience




Right again.
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Artimas » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:19 am


Let's assume that's true.

Power is only understood in one of two ways...

Consent violation

Or the eradication of consent violation.

The only one people want is the latter, at least after enough life experience



Well everyone wants it but how are we supposed to eradicate consent when we give it by the very choice of choosing to live?

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:28 am

Artimas wrote:

Let's assume that's true.

Power is only understood in one of two ways...

Consent violation

Or the eradication of consent violation.

The only one people want is the latter, at least after enough life experience



Well everyone wants it but how are we supposed to eradicate consent when we give it by the very choice of choosing to live?


Some people live to fight the good fight of eradicating consent violation, even though they don't currently consent.

Others only live because society has not provided desirable methods of suicide for them.

Living does not imply consent.
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Artimas » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:34 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Artimas wrote:

Let's assume that's true.

Power is only understood in one of two ways...

Consent violation

Or the eradication of consent violation.

The only one people want is the latter, at least after enough life experience



Well everyone wants it but how are we supposed to eradicate consent when we give it by the very choice of choosing to live?


Some people live to fight the good fight of eradicating consent violation, even though they don't currently consent.

Others only live because society has not provided desirable methods of suicide for them.

Living does not imply consent.


Well I am fighting for the fight on the side of trying to remain balanced and educated, the side of avoidance of causing harm unless absolutely necessary to preserve ones life, everyone to me has an objective value the same as me. I just try to help people see that they are bigger and stronger than the pain of reality and to use it for their own strength, to rise up instead of collapsing from the weight. Sometimes I’m not, sometimes I can be an asshole and so sometimes I stay away from people due to both being misunderstood and also from not wanting to violate their own consent (waking them up to reality) even though I try to educate/promote understanding, the student must seek the master instead of the master seeking the student.

How doesn’t living imply consent if you choose to live and understand that the world is both bad and good if one makes it such?

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:02 am

How hard is it to understand that individuals and society can force people to live against their will by withholding desirable methods for suicide from them?

Also, a person cannot consent to this entire reality, but works to assemble the ingredients they want for a reality that they do consent to, without consenting to ANY of the bad here?
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Artimas » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:38 am

Ecmandu wrote:How hard is it to understand that individuals and society can force people to live against their will by withholding desirable methods for suicide from them?

Also, a person cannot consent to this entire reality, but works to assemble the ingredients they want for a reality that they do consent to, without consenting to ANY of the bad here?


well society is tyrannical by the force it asserts. That’s how it is Ec but we may change that. That isn’t objective reality holding it away from us though it is the ignorance of people and their non acceptance of new or better ideas, fears.

Well can it be bad if you learn or truly understand something new from it, if you gain power?

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:00 am

Artimas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:How hard is it to understand that individuals and society can force people to live against their will by withholding desirable methods for suicide from them?

Also, a person cannot consent to this entire reality, but works to assemble the ingredients they want for a reality that they do consent to, without consenting to ANY of the bad here?


well society is tyrannical by the force it asserts. That’s how it is Ec but we may change that. That isn’t objective reality holding it away from us though it is the ignorance of people and their non acceptance of new or better ideas, fears.

Well can it be bad if you learn or truly understand something new from it, if you gain power?


Individuals can be pretty cool, society is a beast though. That's another reason I think direct democracy is the best system for us.
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Artimas » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:05 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Artimas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:How hard is it to understand that individuals and society can force people to live against their will by withholding desirable methods for suicide from them?

Also, a person cannot consent to this entire reality, but works to assemble the ingredients they want for a reality that they do consent to, without consenting to ANY of the bad here?


well society is tyrannical by the force it asserts. That’s how it is Ec but we may change that. That isn’t objective reality holding it away from us though it is the ignorance of people and their non acceptance of new or better ideas, fears.

Well can it be bad if you learn or truly understand something new from it, if you gain power?


Individuals can be pretty cool, society is a beast though. That's another reason I think direct democracy is the best system for us.


Direct democracy meaning a computerized open source voting system across the globe, without political representatives and money? I feel voting should have certain requirements based off of education, if one doesn’t put in effort to understand the issues and the intricacies I don’t think they should have the power to determine solutions for them, do you think that is fair?

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:19 am

Artimas,

I'm usually pretty good at always qualifying that stance.

Democracy doesn't work without an educated electorate. Monkeys typing on a keyboard couldn't even make that work.

No, people need to be taught what nefarious disinformation is.
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Artimas » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:51 am

Ecmandu wrote:Artimas,

I'm usually pretty good at always qualifying that stance.

Democracy doesn't work without an educated electorate. Monkeys typing on a keyboard couldn't even make that work.

No, people need to be taught what nefarious disinformation is.


I agree people need to be educated on how to think not what to think.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:21 am

Artimas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Artimas,

I'm usually pretty good at always qualifying that stance.

Democracy doesn't work without an educated electorate. Monkeys typing on a keyboard couldn't even make that work.

No, people need to be taught what nefarious disinformation is.


I agree people need to be educated on how to think not what to think.


The what follows from the how.

So, if someone can prove what from how, it saves time that thats what they should think.

Not everyone has time to do proofs through contradiction, but if they see one, and if the person states the conclusion in their proof, it is a what to think. That's not a horrible thing
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Artimas » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:27 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Artimas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Artimas,

I'm usually pretty good at always qualifying that stance.

Democracy doesn't work without an educated electorate. Monkeys typing on a keyboard couldn't even make that work.

No, people need to be taught what nefarious disinformation is.


I agree people need to be educated on how to think not what to think.


The what follows from the how.

So, if someone can prove what from how, it saves time that thats what they should think.

Not everyone has time to do proofs through contradiction, but if they see one, and if the person states the conclusion in their proof, it is a what to think. That's not a horrible thing


Yes but there are few who possess such abilities to manifest a morally just ‘what to think’ and a lot who do are not in positions of societal power. I am not sure it is so simple as to. Is it not true that a what to think could become a knowing without an understanding to an external individual? If the power of a what to think is not earned through an understanding of that same what to think it could lead to more unnecessary bad.

Do you think so as well or no?

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:07 pm

Artimas,

If power is gained without the "what to think" in order to get there, then it will in all likelihood lead to bad.

To have "a not what to think". Someone requires no selective pressure to perform a task.

Like my analogy of NASA ... there are no flat earthers that work at NASA. Because they don't have that specific task, they have the luxury to believe that earth is flat. Once they have the task, they no longer have this option. This analogy extends to all truth or luxury of falsity.
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:52 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Iambiguous states that he has no sense of self and can't find moral answers to every question...


Like everyone else, I have a sense of self rooted in the hundreds and hundreds of factors that are embedded in my actual existence out in the either/or world. The things about me that are, in fact, true. True for everyone. Things able to be readly demonstrated and confirmed.

Only in regard to my value judgments out in the is/ought world am "I" down in my "hole" "fractured and fragmented". And for all of the reasons I have noted here over and over and over and over and over again. Right?
Wow. I have misread you. I certainly understood that this was part of your feeling fractured and fragmented, but I thought you also considered the self illusory or at least potentially illusory and that you did not seem to have the sense of self that others had. Not just around moral issues, but in general.
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Artimas » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:07 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Artimas,

If power is gained without the "what to think" in order to get there, then it will in all likelihood lead to bad.

To have "a not what to think". Someone requires no selective pressure to perform a task.

Like my analogy of NASA ... there are no flat earthers that work at NASA. Because they don't have that specific task, they have the luxury to believe that earth is flat. Once they have the task, they no longer have this option. This analogy extends to all truth or luxury of falsity.


It’s true. There will always be a lower class of civilization due to value attribution (fear and satisfaction). If this is the conclusion then I do agree with you, I have high hopes though that we can make society better universally for a better guided understanding for individuals.

By guided understanding, I mean get Person A. Whom is a flat earther on the path to position B where person B is. Working at nasa and is more educated. While at the same time getting person B to position C.

We must setup a better guide/system fundamentally for society so that we all may understand this and it’s functioning without any added social conditioning/cultural blinding that keeps individuals trapped in their own present desires.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:15 pm

Artimas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Artimas,

If power is gained without the "what to think" in order to get there, then it will in all likelihood lead to bad.

To have "a not what to think". Someone requires no selective pressure to perform a task.

Like my analogy of NASA ... there are no flat earthers that work at NASA. Because they don't have that specific task, they have the luxury to believe that earth is flat. Once they have the task, they no longer have this option. This analogy extends to all truth or luxury of falsity.


It’s true. There will always be a lower class of civilization due to value attribution (fear and satisfaction). If this is the conclusion then I do agree with you, I have high hopes though that we can make society better universally for a better guided understanding for individuals.

By guided understanding, I mean get Person A. Whom is a flat earther on the path to position B where person B is. Working at nasa and is more educated. While at the same time getting person B to position C.

We must setup a better guide/system fundamentally for society so that we all may understand this and it’s functioning without any added social conditioning/cultural blinding that keeps individuals trapped in their own present desires.


I think your obsession with eliminating the fear / satisfaction aspects of life completely is unhealthy.

I have no desire to punch some random person walking down the sidewalk in the face, not only do I not have that desire, if I look closely enough, I fear at a minimum, the consequence of how I'd feel about myself if I did such a horrible thing.

But, you tell me that this is wrong.

Also, just because I have no fear, doesn't mean I can't get hurt ... I could do a lot of stupid non street smarts type stuff and get myself killed really fast, and then it's tragic to those who appreciate me, I can feel satisfaction for caring enough about them to not be a dumbass.
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Artimas » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:21 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
Artimas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Artimas,

If power is gained without the "what to think" in order to get there, then it will in all likelihood lead to bad.

To have "a not what to think". Someone requires no selective pressure to perform a task.

Like my analogy of NASA ... there are no flat earthers that work at NASA. Because they don't have that specific task, they have the luxury to believe that earth is flat. Once they have the task, they no longer have this option. This analogy extends to all truth or luxury of falsity.


It’s true. There will always be a lower class of civilization due to value attribution (fear and satisfaction). If this is the conclusion then I do agree with you, I have high hopes though that we can make society better universally for a better guided understanding for individuals.

By guided understanding, I mean get Person A. Whom is a flat earther on the path to position B where person B is. Working at nasa and is more educated. While at the same time getting person B to position C.

We must setup a better guide/system fundamentally for society so that we all may understand this and it’s functioning without any added social conditioning/cultural blinding that keeps individuals trapped in their own present desires.


I think your obsession with eliminating the fear / satisfaction aspects of life completely is unhealthy.

I have no desire to punch some random person walking down the sidewalk in the face, not only do I not have that desire, if I look closely enough, I fear at a minimum, the consequence of how I'd feel about myself if I did such a horrible thing.

But, you tell me that this is wrong.

Also, just because I have no fear, doesn't mean I can't get hurt ... I could do a lot of stupid non street smarts type stuff and get myself killed really fast, and then it's tragic to those who appreciate me, I can feel satisfaction for caring enough about them to not be a dumbass.


No but unnecessary fear from the ego and constricting/restricting oneself with fear or satisfaction is bad.

I also never stated to get rid of fear and satisfaction completely, there’s a difference between understanding it and getting rid of it. The guide:system would be more so to understand and prioritize value attribution based off of real self, subconscious self. That’s the point of balance.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:02 pm

Artimas,

I tried to explain to you before.

The universe is not balance, it is not yin yang.

When you see a car, is everything the opposite of the car? No! It's just different.

When there's a logic proof, are there an equal number of disproofs, no! They are just arguments that aren't proofs.
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Artimas » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:35 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Artimas,

I tried to explain to you before.

The universe is not balance, it is not yin yang.

When you see a car, is everything the opposite of the car? No! It's just different.

When there's a logic proof, are there an equal number of disproofs, no! They are just arguments that aren't proofs.

I don’t mean a balance between logic proofs and disproof. I mean a balance of self and the unveiling of contrasts to not get too biased with a contrast.

Moderation is a form of balancing, which -is- necessary unless one wants to die quickly.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:55 am

Artimas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Artimas,

I tried to explain to you before.

The universe is not balance, it is not yin yang.

When you see a car, is everything the opposite of the car? No! It's just different.

When there's a logic proof, are there an equal number of disproofs, no! They are just arguments that aren't proofs.

I don’t mean a balance between logic proofs and disproof. I mean a balance of self and the unveiling of contrasts to not get too biased with a contrast.

Moderation is a form of balancing, which -is- necessary unless one wants to die quickly.


I already quoted mark twain for you, but I guess it didn't stick: everything in moderation including moderation.

I personally think that's the best quote in human history

Well... with the exception of my quote:

If reality is violating your consent, at that moment, it is inherently evil.

But mark twain is a close second
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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Artimas » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:48 am

Ecmandu wrote:
Artimas wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:Artimas,

I tried to explain to you before.

The universe is not balance, it is not yin yang.

When you see a car, is everything the opposite of the car? No! It's just different.

When there's a logic proof, are there an equal number of disproofs, no! They are just arguments that aren't proofs.

I don’t mean a balance between logic proofs and disproof. I mean a balance of self and the unveiling of contrasts to not get too biased with a contrast.

Moderation is a form of balancing, which -is- necessary unless one wants to die quickly.


I already quoted mark twain for you, but I guess it didn't stick: everything in moderation including moderation.

I personally think that's the best quote in human history

Well... with the exception of my quote:

If reality is violating your consent, at that moment, it is inherently evil.

But mark twain is a close second


That’s a good quote and it’s true. I just don’t look at it like it is evil, painful yeah and an assertion over an individual but it’s of no intent.. reality can be many things and it has no choice in the matter ultimately, it is mankind that has the choice, we’re conscious.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: New thread - Iambiguous, here are your PROOFS

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:54 am

Artimas,

And conscious minds not only say, but have historically and currently say, "evil exists"

Even the Buddha called Mara "the evil one"

In Buddhist psychology, Mara is the wrathful deity that emerges every time one is about to become enlightened and wars against their enlightenment.
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