Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

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Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:56 pm

You are either a Slave (Determinist)
Or
You are a Free-Man (Free-Will)


It surprises me how few Free Men are on ILP, in Western Civilization, and in USA. USA is, hypothetically, the "freest" nation in the world, yet you wouldn't think so based on this forum, where most or everybody are determinists and casually imply, everyday, that "free-will" is impossible.

Fuck you.


Just because you are a slave, doesn't mean that everybody else is. Just because most people are, that it is impossible.

I understand the mentality of the Slave, the Abrahamic, the Christian, the Jew, the Moslem. Many people, most of humanity, is born into different forms of slavery. And humanity clings to their walls, chains, and bars. Why? Because slavery represents security and comfort. It represents routine. It represents the 'known'. It never ventures into the unknown, the abstract, the intimidating. It never ventures into humility, that, you can be wrong.

That you can be very wrong, about most of the bullshit you've been raised up to believe in.


This is particularly insulting, personally, on a "philosophy forum", where Philosophers have pushed the tradition for thousands of years now, of free-thought and doubt. Here, you are, hypothetically, "free" to doubt all the bullshit. But again, you wouldn't know or suspect this, based on the 99% of posts and responses on this forum, from slave-minds.

I very much pity those who are slave-minded and never tasted freedom. It makes me realize how Blessed and Privileged I truly am, to become a free-thinker. I say *become* because freedom is not merely granted or earned, it must be fought for. It must be sacrificed for. And it's obvious, that most are unwilling to make such sacrifices, to gain a semblance of freedom. Instead, people are beholden to their basic belief systems (Meme-plex). You are beholden to your religion, your political party, your left, your right, your liberalism, your conservatism. I am beyond all these labels. I have explored them all, left, right, up down forward backward. Whereas you only choose one side, and stick with that.

A real pity, a real shame, indeed.
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:59 pm

I'm aggressive here, because the slaves are aggressive toward me, first.

It is more troubling to those who are slaves, that somebody says "freedom is possible", than the inverse. Slaves are threatened by freedom. But free-men are not threatened by slaves. Why? Because free-men understand the difference.

What is the reaction of the slave to the free-man? Does the slave want to pull herself out of slavery? No, she would rather pull the free-man down into her slavery and share her slavery with others. The slave has little or no interest in freedom, only, of spreading his/her own slavery to others.


"If I can't be free, then nobody else can". This is the Nihilistic core of the slave-minded.

If I cannot win, then nobody can.

If I cannot be happy in life, then nobody deserves it.


My "aggression" is nowhere close to these adversaries.
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby promethean75 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:11 pm

unwrong wrote:Just because you are a slave, doesn't mean that everybody else is.


yeah i'm with unwrong. you guys can go conform to the natural laws that govern the movement of physical bodies in space/time if you want, but unwrong and i are going to defy the laws of physics and apply magical, immaterial forces to the electro-chemical processes of/in our nervous systems such that we render the neurological activities therein unaffected by those laws, and act 'freely' as a result.

anybody who can't suspend the laws of physics and strip from all antecedent events their causal effects on events that follow in the nervous system, are slaves.

c'mon, unwrong. we outta here.
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:45 pm

*teleports to the next solar system*

These lifeforms over here understand....let's do this.
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Mad Man P » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:54 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:"If I can't be free, then nobody else can". This is the Nihilistic core of the slave-minded.

If I cannot win, then nobody can.

If I cannot be happy in life, then nobody deserves it.


My "aggression" is nowhere close to these adversaries.


Interesting that you're arguing a moral or values based case for free will... this is novel

So allow me to ask you, what is the higher value?
Truth or Freedom?

A slave can easily imagine themselves to freedom. "I don't HAVE to act this way, I choose to"
But what if that belief is at odds with the truth? What then? Ignore it?

Besides, it seems you've come across the trouble of defining "free will" in a coherent way, yet you have made no attempt at dealing with it.
You cannot ask anyone to adopt a position or perspective that is incomprehensible to them.

Free will should be taken to mean a will that is "free" of what exactly?
Prior causes? If past experiences influence my will and wants does that mean I do not have "free" will?
Emotional attachments? if my emotions entice me to make choices would that mean I had no free will?
Pre-existing preferences? If I like the taste of chocolate more than dirt despite my best efforts to will it otherwise, does that mean I lack free will?

Before we even get into physics and metaphysics, you have to define the concept in a way that is comprehensible.

So far the only definition of free will that is coherent to me is from utility "That which allows us to hold each other accountable for our actions"
And so far as I can tell, there is no conflict between that definition and determinism... it just takes a few more steps to get there.
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:59 pm

If you were a free-man then you would already know that to define freedom, it ceases being free.

Freedom is un-defined.
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Mad Man P » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:02 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:If you were a free-man then you would already know that to define freedom, it ceases being free.

Freedom is un-defined.


That is a really unrewarding response, that does nothing to foster conversation
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Meno_ » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:30 pm

Mad Man P wrote:
Urwrongx1000 wrote:"If I can't be free, then nobody else can". This is the Nihilistic core of the slave-minded.

If I cannot win, then nobody can.

If I cannot be happy in life, then nobody deserves it.


My "aggression" is nowhere close to these adversaries.


Interesting that you're arguing a moral or values based case for free will... this is novel

So allow me to ask you, what is the higher value?
Truth or Freedom?

A slave can easily imagine themselves to freedom. "I don't HAVE to act this way, I choose to"
But what if that belief is at odds with the truth? What then? Ignore it?

Besides, it seems you've come across the trouble of defining "free will" in a coherent way, yet you have made no attempt at dealing with it.
You cannot ask anyone to adopt a position or perspective that is incomprehensible to them.

Free will should be taken to mean a will that is "free" of what exactly?
Prior causes? If past experiences influence my will and wants does that mean I do not have "free" will?
Emotional attachments? if my emotions entice me to make choices would that mean I had no free will?
Pre-existing preferences? If I like the taste of chocolate more than dirt despite my best efforts to will it otherwise, does that mean I lack free will?

Before we even get into physics and metaphysics, you have to define the concept in a way that is comprehensible.

So far the only definition of free will that is coherent to me is from utility "That which allows us to hold each other accountable for our actions"
And so far as I can tell, there is no conflict between that definition and determinism... it just takes a few more steps to get there.




That is exactly on point . the establishment knew the intellectual remifications of the new left, therefore by defining it to those who did not understand it, they defeated the popular understanding of it by counter intelligence depending on counter definitipns5. The Monkees were a good example.
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Artimas » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:40 pm

Mad Man P wrote:
Urwrongx1000 wrote:"If I can't be free, then nobody else can". This is the Nihilistic core of the slave-minded.

If I cannot win, then nobody can.

If I cannot be happy in life, then nobody deserves it.


My "aggression" is nowhere close to these adversaries.


Interesting that you're arguing a moral or values based case for free will... this is novel

So allow me to ask you, what is the higher value?
Truth or Freedom?

A slave can easily imagine themselves to freedom. "I don't HAVE to act this way, I choose to"
But what if that belief is at odds with the truth? What then? Ignore it?

Besides, it seems you've come across the trouble of defining "free will" in a coherent way, yet you have made no attempt at dealing with it.
You cannot ask anyone to adopt a position or perspective that is incomprehensible to them.

Free will should be taken to mean a will that is "free" of what exactly?
Prior causes? If past experiences influence my will and wants does that mean I do not have "free" will?
Emotional attachments? if my emotions entice me to make choices would that mean I had no free will?
Pre-existing preferences? If I like the taste of chocolate more than dirt despite my best efforts to will it otherwise, does that mean I lack free will?

Before we even get into physics and metaphysics, you have to define the concept in a way that is comprehensible.

So far the only definition of free will that is coherent to me is from utility "That which allows us to hold each other accountable for our actions"
And so far as I can tell, there is no conflict between that definition and determinism... it just takes a few more steps to get there.


Agree with this and that is why we keep going in circles.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

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Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Jakob » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:23 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:I'm aggressive here, because the slaves are aggressive toward me, first.

It is more troubling to those who are slaves, that somebody says "freedom is possible", than the inverse. Slaves are threatened by freedom. But free-men are not threatened by slaves. Why? Because free-men understand the difference.

But free men are definitely annoyed by the slaves.
Why? Because slaves outnumber the free about fifty to one.

What is the reaction of the slave to the free-man? Does the slave want to pull herself out of slavery? No, she would rather pull the free-man down into her slavery and share her slavery with others. The slave has little or no interest in freedom, only, of spreading his/her own slavery to others.

Freedom is either something terrifying to the slave, or it is something completely out of reach of even contemplation, and thus fear.

Freedom is, obviously, a lot harder work than being a slave.
I think we should really think of it as different species.
The slave is literally not capable of being free, the physiology is not up to it. Be it the brain or the nervous system or the stomach or whatever, the slave simply can not endure any other form of being but that which requires absolutely no autonomous conscious decision making.

"If I can't be free, then nobody else can". This is the Nihilistic core of the slave-minded.

If I cannot win, then nobody can.

If I cannot be happy in life, then nobody deserves it.

Yes, Socialism.
Sadly it is hard to imagine how a weakling might escape this mindset.
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby promethean75 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:27 pm

well the socialist philosopher is something quite different than those with simpler working class consciousness and interests.... the ordinary citizens that make up the engine of the socialist revolution. the socialist philosopher can be likened to nietzsche's master legislator; his project is to the entire world what the capitalist's project is to a corner store. as you can see it is a much bigger project... not something the capitalist can comprehend, and something he'd certainly not favor even if he could comprehend it. but meanwhile, as those legislators with the grand idea work in the background, there will be much noise and hooplah to be heard everywhere, from the political marketplaces to the internet forum boards. this is only a minor inconvenience to the wheels of progress and hardly something to be alarmed about. there is always some degree of nervous energy to be found circulating among the peoples when history arrives at those critical points of unfamiliar change. but it is a temporary noise that will eventually be silenced as each thesis gives way to its antithesis, and a new synthesis emerges in its place. the zeitgeist's anxiety toward the lose of tradition and what is comfortable is part of the the growing pangs of the dialectic of history. these are just side effects. best one can do when the people feel such discomfort at such change is to advise them to ask their doctor...
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:24 pm

Mad Man P

So allow me to ask you, what is the higher value?
Truth or Freedom?


Wow that is a good question to ponder. Perhaps the answer to that would depend on where a human being, an individual, is at that moment. Freedom might be the highest value to a slave but even a slave knowing that he is not free, that he is "owned" by others, may feel more freedom within than the rest of us. Why? Perhaps because he may sense a higher Truth of what his life is about and be able to tolerate things.


A slave can easily imagine themselves to freedom. "I don't HAVE to act this way, I choose to"
But what if that belief is at odds with the truth? What then? Ignore it?


Act which way?


Free will should be taken to mean a will that is "free" of what exactly?


Does free will necessarily mean to be free of something? Can it not also mean that something can be bestowed on us or that we can bestow it upon ourselves? (if that made sense to you).

Prior causes? If past experiences influence my will and wants does that mean I do not have "free" will?


It might. But I might change "my will" to "my thinking". Thinking determines the choices which we make.

Emotional attachments? if my emotions entice me to make choices would that mean I had no free will?


Does a leaf blowing in the wind have free choice?
But to answer your question, not necessarily. If those choices were made through deliberate, cognitive thinking, where would the loss of free will be? That is an actual question.


Pre-existing preferences? If I like the taste of chocolate more than dirt despite my best efforts to will it otherwise, does that mean I lack free will?


But why would that even bother you? Why get so caught up with free will when our taste buds say otherwise?


So far the only definition of free will that is coherent to me is from utility "That which allows us to hold each other accountable for our actions"


Did you mean to say which allows us to hold OURSELVES accountable and responsible for our actions?

Does free will only come in hindsight?
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Mad Man P » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:16 am

Hey Arc ;)

Arcturus Descending wrote:
So allow me to ask you, what is the higher value?
Truth or Freedom?


Wow that is a good question to ponder. Perhaps the answer to that would depend on where a human being, an individual, is at that moment. Freedom might be the highest value to a slave but even a slave knowing that he is not free, that he is "owned" by others, may feel more freedom within than the rest of us. Why? Perhaps because he may sense a higher Truth of what his life is about and be able to tolerate things.


Can you even be a slave if you believe yourself to be free?
Can you long for something you think you have?

A slave can easily imagine themselves to freedom. "I don't HAVE to act this way, I choose to"
But what if that belief is at odds with the truth? What then? Ignore it?


Act which way?


The only way available to you...

Free will should be taken to mean a will that is "free" of what exactly?


Does free will necessarily mean to be free of something? Can it not also mean that something can be bestowed on us or that we can bestow it upon ourselves? (if that made sense to you).


Is it not just "will" then?
Is all will "free will" ?
If not, when is it not?

Prior causes? If past experiences influence my will and wants does that mean I do not have "free" will?


It might. But I might change "my will" to "my thinking". Thinking determines the choices which we make.


So your choices are a slave to your thinking.
What rules your thinking, I wonder...

Emotional attachments? if my emotions entice me to make choices would that mean I had no free will?


Does a leaf blowing in the wind have free choice?
But to answer your question, not necessarily. If those choices were made through deliberate, cognitive thinking, where would the loss of free will be? That is an actual question.


I cannot answer that question... we're still trying to agree what we mean by "free" will

Did you mean to say which allows us to hold OURSELVES accountable and responsible for our actions?


No, I did not..

I am my will... my will is me... no other part is more myself, not my thinking, not my knowledge, not my choices, not my actions, not my circumstance, nothing is more myself then is my will.
It is the source of my regrets, my aspirations, delusions, my every animation... it is the core of me from which all the other parts I call my own emerge... it is self-evidently true that I am responsible for what I willed to be.

But for you to judge me... that takes justification.
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:46 pm

Mad Man P,

Hello there. :wink:

Can you even be a slave if you believe yourself to be free?


Objectively speaking, if you are slave, you are a slave. If the so-called slave tries to deny that fact or rationalizes about it, than in truth how free can he be? If he can embrace the fact that he is still a slave, the way I look at it he is truly free in the real sense of the word and "owns" himself.

Can you long for something you think you have?


That is a good question. I would say "Yes" to this, especially if, deep down, we know otherwise.

But what if that belief is at odds with the truth? What then? Ignore it?


That would depend on the individual. Some would, some would not ignore it. Very often our beliefs ARE at odds with the truth and often we do choose to ignore this.
It really is a shame because the truth can set us free even though getting those shackles off can be quite painful at first.

Act which way?

The only way available to you...
\\

Is there only ONE way?

Does free will necessarily mean to be free of something? Can it not also mean that something can be bestowed on us or that we can bestow it upon ourselves? (if that made sense to you).

Is it not just "will" then?


How would you define "will" in your own words?

Is all will "free will" ?
If not, when is it not?


Not necessarily. We are a product of our environment, our upbringing, our human experiences. We make our decisions but they are also "tied in" with all that went into making us who we are.
Who really knows what lurks beneath and within which causes us to make those decisions. How free are they really? But if we are aware of all of this beforehand, they can become more free through that inner awareness.


It might. But I might change "my will" to "my thinking". Thinking determines the choices which we make.

So your choices are a slave to your thinking.


Why would you necessarily have to call them "slaves"? You might just want to call them or consider those choices to be, let us say, works of harmony which go hand in hand with your mind as a result of a higher and more wise mediation.

What rules your thinking, I wonder...


Give me a situation and I may just tell you. Would it not be different depending on the circumstances - although I was going to say things like intelligence, logic, wisdom, human experience....but....


Emotional attachments? if my emotions entice me to make choices would that mean I had no free will?


I think that that would depend on the choice made and what caused or brought about that choice.
I may not be clearly understanding what you mean her but I think that there are cases where we feel that we must absolutely do something, like in saving a life, where we feel we have no choice in the matter, no "free" will in the matter. We value human life, a child's life, so we have to go into that ocean with those gigantic waves all around lol.

Is it free will which causes us to run into that ocean because our emotions will not allow us to do otherwise or is it a lack of free will? Ultimately, where does will stand in this?


I am my will... my will is me... no other part is more myself, not my thinking, not my knowledge, not my choices, not my actions, not my circumstance, nothing is more myself then is my will.


Hmmm...I cannot say why but something about the above seems to me to be counter-intuitive to human freedom. Can you give me an example of what you mean?


It is the source of my regrets, my aspirations, delusions, my every animation... it is the core of me from which all the other parts I call my own emerge... it is self-evidently true that I am responsible for what I willed to be.


Well, I think that it is a good thing when we can look at our life and see where our OWN "real" responsibility lies for things which we have caused to happen and things which we have done BUT I think that it is also true that often we are semi-conscious or have little awareness of the things which we do as we are in the process of doing them.

Please do not take this the wrong way but sometimes our own ego can bring us to that place which you spoke of - that I am responsible for what I willed to be.
So it was only you yourself who brought this or that on? No outside influences?


Is "willed" the same as "wanted"? No, I suppose that it is not. Stupid question.
We want things but we do not necessarily set out to get these things. We are not motivated. It is "will" which moves us, which gives us power to bring things to realization.
We do not allow the energy force to rise up within us lol to take us over, to strive for what we want.

I might say that it was "will", ongong will, unconscious or deliberate, that caused the evolution of the universe, of the species, of humanity, random or not. I am not calling that God though...just some wonderful, enigmatic, seemingly magical essence which can permeate us when we draw it out and the Universe.

But for you to judge me... that takes justification.


Hmmmm????

Okay, so we are probably no closer than before. lol Many more questions than answers.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Mad Man P » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:13 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:Very often our beliefs ARE at odds with the truth and often we do choose to ignore this.
It really is a shame because the truth can set us free even though getting those shackles off can be quite painful at first.


But what if you can't break out of your shackles?
The truth would merely imprison you then... where in the fantasy you were free.

Would you still wish to know the truth, then?
Would it still be a shame?

If ignorance can be bliss... why then seek out the truth?

The only way available to you...


Is there only ONE way?


Possibly

How would you define "will" in your own words?


A person's drive... the thing that moves them.

We are a product of our environment, our upbringing, our human experiences. We make our decisions but they are also "tied in" with all that went into making us who we are.
Who really knows what lurks beneath and within which causes us to make those decisions. How free are they really? But if we are aware of all of this beforehand, they can become more free through that inner awareness.


At bottom there is a nature to our being... being aware of that nature does not necessarily free you from it... no more than being aware of shackles would allow them to open.

Ultimately I cannot be free of myself nor did I create myself... I cannot, therefore, be responsible for myself.
But I would argue, I can still be responsible for my actions and choices all the same.

Thinking determines the choices which we make.

So your choices are a slave to your thinking.


Why would you necessarily have to call them "slaves"? You might just want to call them or consider those choices to be, let us say, works of harmony which go hand in hand with your mind as a result of a higher and more wise mediation.


Because that was the relationship you proposed... it was one side dictating to another.

What rules your thinking, I wonder...


Give me a situation and I may just tell you.


such a tease... but alright we can save the flirting for later :wink:

I am my will... my will is me... no other part is more myself, not my thinking, not my knowledge, not my choices, not my actions, not my circumstance, nothing is more myself then is my will.


Hmmm...I cannot say why but something about the above seems to me to be counter-intuitive to human freedom. Can you give me an example of what you mean?


What shapes you?
You might say circumstance or experience... but the facts alone do nothing, it's the lessons you draw from them that shape you.
So what determines which lessons you draw from your experiences?
Intelligence, you might say... but that merely sets the limits of what lessons you CAN draw, not which ones you DO draw.
Chase it down and you end up with will...

That's the source of who and what you are...


Well, I think that it is a good thing when we can look at our life and see where our OWN "real" responsibility lies for things which we have caused to happen and things which we have done BUT I think that it is also true that often we are semi-conscious or have little awareness of the things which we do as we are in the process of doing them.


Not everyone values truth over freedom...

Please do not take this the wrong way but sometimes our own ego can bring us to that place which you spoke of - that I am responsible for what I willed to be.
So it was only you yourself who brought this or that on? No outside influences?


We do not have to deny outside influence, or even absolute determinism, in order to recognize that so long as we willed it, we are responsible for what we willed to be.
These things are not mutually exclusive... which was my original point.

We are not rocks, such that we only move when outside forces make us...
We have an internal drive that moves us as well and we are responsible for those movements.

Is "willed" the same as "wanted"? No, I suppose that it is not. Stupid question.
We want things but we do not necessarily set out to get these things. We are not motivated. It is "will" which moves us, which gives us power to bring things to realization.
We do not allow the energy force to rise up within us lol to take us over, to strive for what we want.

I might say that it was "will", ongong will, unconscious or deliberate, that caused the evolution of the universe, of the species, of humanity, random or not. I am not calling that God though...just some wonderful, enigmatic, seemingly magical essence which can permeate us when we draw it out and the Universe.


Such musings are far to esoteric for me, I'm afraid... and quite outside my modest experience.

Okay, so we are probably no closer than before. lol Many more questions than answers.


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There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
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Re: Determinism = Slave-ism, Free-Will = Freedom

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:22 pm

Mad Man P,

Hello.

Very often our beliefs ARE at odds with the truth and often we do choose to ignore this.
It really is a shame because the truth can set us free even though getting those shackles off can be quite painful at first.

But what if you can't break out of your shackles?


I think that if the person has, at least, tried to or is trying to break out of those shackles, there has to be some consciousness or light which he senses as "truth" or as being "real". It is a process.

The truth would merely imprison you then... where in the fantasy you were free.


At this point, it might be that glimmer of "truth" which becomes the wind (will) beneath one's feet.
I suppose it would depend on who the individual is. There is no magic when it comes to breaking those shackles. It is hard work, right? Perhaps at some point the individual comes to realize that they do not want to live in the matrix but in the "real" world despite how safe and cozy that matrix is.

You mean "you felt free". Is that the same? Or is that the brain playing tricks on us?
Can it "in actuality" be real freedom?

Would you still wish to know the truth, then?


Insofar as I know myself, absolutely. I am afraid of the matrix. lol But I do believe that that is a "coming to" process. I am not one who cleans by sweeping dirt and dust under the carpet.

Would it still be a shame?


What is that?

If ignorance can be bliss... why then seek out the truth?


Well, for one thing, that combination, ignorance as bliss, can be very dangerous.
Anyway, how long can one stay on such a hedonistic diet? I suppose that I will answer my own question here - just as long as it feels good.

How would you define "will" in your own words?

A person's drive... the thing that moves them.


Does "will" come first or purpose/motivation? That may be a silly question.

Your definition can imply that will is an emotion or am I wrong here?


Arc: We are a product of our environment, our upbringing, our human experiences. We make our decisions but they are also "tied in" with all that went into making us who we are.
Who really knows what lurks beneath and within which causes us to make those decisions. How free are they really? But if we are aware of all of this beforehand, they can become more free through that inner awareness.


Mad Man P: At bottom there is a nature to our being... being aware of that nature does not necessarily free you from it... no more than being aware of shackles would allow them to open.


This is true but at the same time, would you agree that it might depend on the "individual"? This is where one's realizations can give rise to the power of the Will. I would suggest that the need to survive and evolve can break through any form of nature; that is, unless it is psychopathic and evil.

Ultimately I cannot be free of myself nor did I create myself... I cannot, therefore, be responsible for myself.


Bull!!!!!!!! What kind of a butterfly ARE you, Mad Man?
It is true that others have influenced our natures, beings and patterns but at some point we can become capable of pushing through or transcending that and re-shaping ourselves.
I can agree with you that we cannot be free of our self until we die. We can also "be free of our self" when we allow our self or ourself lol to die to that self.
We constantly free ourselves of ourselves and re-create ourselves.
Are you a puppet? :evilfun: O/K

But I would argue, I can still be responsible for my actions and choices all the same.


This does not seem to go hand-in-hand with Ultimately I cannot be free of myself nor did I create myself... I cannot, therefore, be responsible for myself.

I do not see the Self/self as being fixed in time, Mad Man.

Why would you necessarily have to call them "slaves"? You might just want to call them or consider those choices to be, let us say, works of harmony which go hand in hand with your mind as a result of a higher and more wise mediation.

Because that was the relationship you proposed... it was one side dictating to another.


I would not use the word "dictating" here --- perhaps more to the point, the phrase "coming to a meeting of the minds". That is why I did use the word "mediation". "Dictating" kind of "splits the self, the mind, do you not think?
It is really not such an easy thing to express with words what we really mean, is it - at least not for me. lol

I am my will... my will is me... no other part is more myself, not my thinking, not my knowledge, not my choices, not my actions, not my circumstance, nothing is more myself then is my will.


Hmmm...I cannot say why but something about the above seems to me to be counter-intuitive to human freedom. I may not be understanding your meaning here though.
Can you give me an example of what you mean or elaborate a bit?

What shapes you?


Walking, running, yoga, refraining from certain foods, eating certain foods. :wink:

The beauty of nature, the elements, the stars, wonderful music, books, knowledge, awesome people, love, compassion, kindness - both positive and negative emotions, et cetera.
I am my own Potter and my own Whittler. lol But I would be lying if I denied that I do have the remnants of a self-imposed puppet maker within me. My scissors are sharp though. Okay, I am rambling here.

You might say circumstance or experience... but the facts alone do nothing, it's the lessons you draw from them that shape you.


The facts alone do nothing? That cannot be further from the truth, Mad Man. In order to learn those lessons, we must first see/acknowledge the journey. We must face those "facts" honestly. Then, yes, the lessons we learn from those journeys can help to re-shape us.
Let us not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So what determines which lessons you draw from your experiences?
Intelligence, you might say... but that merely sets the limits of what lessons you CAN draw, not which ones you DO draw.
Chase it down and you end up with will...


One might also say that Pain can determine that. Also wisdom.
Survival instinct, which might be part of the Pain. I suppose we pick and choose according to how we want to see our future developing - if that made sense.

Will then becomes the Beginning of another ride.

That's the source of who and what you are...


I am kind of stuck on this. I see myself as more of a panoramic landscape. You would appear to see yourself --- and I may be wrong --- as some point in time. I cannot express what I sense.

Well, I think that it is a good thing when we can look at our life and see where our OWN "real" responsibility lies for things which we have caused to happen and things which we have done BUT I think that it is also true that often we are semi-conscious or have little awareness of the things which we do as we are in the process of doing them.

Not everyone values truth over freedom...


Of course, I may be wrong here but how can an individual be truly free when they cannot value truth or what is "real"?


Please do not take this the wrong way but sometimes our own ego can bring us to that place which you spoke of - that I am responsible for what I willed to be.
So it was only you yourself who brought this or that on? No outside influences?


We do not have to deny outside influence, or even absolute determinism, in order to recognize that so long as we willed it, we are responsible for what we willed to be.
These things are not mutually exclusive... which was my original point.


I myself would never deny outside influence BUT can we use that as a final excuse? As ffor the latter, how can one be held responsible for their will and actions when it was not their will at play to begin with - just something fixed and pre-determined?
Do we have the power to change Fate if it did exist? That is a question I think to be pondered. What would it take for that to happen?

We are not rocks, such that we only move when outside forces make us...
We have an internal drive that moves us as well and we are responsible for those movements.


An example?

I might say that it was "will", ongong will, unconscious or deliberate, that caused the evolution of the universe, of the species, of humanity, random or not. I am not calling that God though...just some wonderful, enigmatic, seemingly magical essence which can permeate us when we draw it out and the Universe.

Such musings are far to esoteric for me, I'm afraid... and quite outside my modest experience.


Esoteric? Not so, especially when the words come from me. I do love to muse though.

Okay, so we are probably no closer than before. lol Many more questions than answers.

Isn't philosophy wonderful?


Yes, it is wonderful. Sometimes like a work of art (any form) which is difficult to decipher.
Mysterious.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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