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Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:59 pm
by bahman
Something which cannot be created has existed in eternal past. Let's go back to eternal past. We still have eternal past in back and eternal future ahead (this is the property of eternity). We observe that the thing exists in eternal future. Therefore the title is proved.

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:12 pm
by Guide
We need to discuss the status of potential, actual and necessary. Potential, it seems, does not exist in the way a chair or a stone does.

I believe this bring us to the "sempiternal" of the ancients, in Plato and Aristotle for instance. The Catholics remove God from existence, through the claim that the actus purus or (energia in Aristotle) differs from flawed existence through its freak perfection and creative power (remembering, that until quite recently, creativity was said of God only, since humans invented or discovered what was there in potentia).

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:53 am
by Prismatic567
bahman wrote:Something which cannot be created has existed in eternal past. Let's go back to eternal past. We still have eternal past in back and eternal future ahead (this is the property of eternity). We observe that the thing exists in eternal future. Therefore the title is proved.

Nah, the OP is a truism.

There is the 'past' 'present' and 'future' and these are all human concepts and realization.

The term 'eternal' is not a human concept.
'Eternal' is merely a mental thought that has no possibility of being real at all.

Humans can discuss the concept of past based on memory, the present based on current experiences and the future based on speculations and predictions then compare to the future present.

The idea of 'eternal' is not a possibility to be real at all.

Thus when your premises are imputed with an impossible element, your conclusion will follow with an impossibility to be real.

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:40 pm
by bahman
Guide wrote:We need to discuss the status of potential, actual and necessary. Potential, it seems, does not exist in the way a chair or a stone does.

Why? Could you please elaborate?

Guide wrote:I believe this bring us to the "sempiternal" of the ancients, in Plato and Aristotle for instance. The Catholics remove God from existence, through the claim that the actus purus or (energia in Aristotle) differs from flawed existence through its freak perfection and creative power (remembering, that until quite recently, creativity was said of God only, since humans invented or discovered what was there in potentia).

So you are saying the ability to create is a potentiality while Catholics believe in pure actual God?

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:45 pm
by bahman
Prismatic567 wrote:
bahman wrote:Something which cannot be created has existed in eternal past. Let's go back to eternal past. We still have eternal past in back and eternal future ahead (this is the property of eternity). We observe that the thing exists in eternal future. Therefore the title is proved.

Nah, the OP is a truism.

There is the 'past' 'present' and 'future' and these are all human concepts and realization.

That is not true. Time exists independent from human.

Prismatic567 wrote:The term 'eternal' is not a human concept.
'Eternal' is merely a mental thought that has no possibility of being real at all.

Humans can discuss the concept of past based on memory, the present based on current experiences and the future based on speculations and predictions then compare to the future present.

The idea of 'eternal' is not a possibility to be real at all.

Thus when your premises are imputed with an impossible element, your conclusion will follow with an impossibility to be real.

You need to show that the first premises, something which cannot be created has existed in eternal past, is wrong.

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:41 am
by Gloominary
Time is meaningless without matter moving in space, and vice versa, so if you destroy all matter moving in space, you destroy time too.

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:42 am
by Gloominary
If something has existed for an eternity, than it's already been subjected to everything it could possibly be subjected to, and survived, so there's nothing anything could subject it to in the future it hasn't already been subjected to the in the past, and survived, so it's indestructible.

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:18 pm
by bahman
Gloominary wrote:Time is meaningless without matter moving in space, and vice versa, so if you destroy all matter moving in space, you destroy time too.

General relativity allows space-time without mass.

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:21 pm
by bahman
Gloominary wrote:If something has existed for an eternity, than it's already been subjected to everything it could possibly be subjected to, and survived, so there's nothing anything could subject it to in the future it hasn't already been subjected to the in the past, and survived, so it's indestructible.

I was aware of this argument but I preferred OP.

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:12 pm
by Karpel Tunnel
bahman wrote: That is not true. Time exists independent from human.
But not perhaps as time. IOW we experience change and call it time. But change may be an illusion. Perhaps it is a block universe with time as a fourth dimension.

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:14 pm
by Karpel Tunnel
bahman wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Time is meaningless without matter moving in space, and vice versa, so if you destroy all matter moving in space, you destroy time too.

General relativity allows space-time without mass.
Hard to imagine a theory of gravitation allowing for this. And where is there no mass?

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:13 pm
by bahman
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
bahman wrote:
Gloominary wrote:Time is meaningless without matter moving in space, and vice versa, so if you destroy all matter moving in space, you destroy time too.

General relativity allows space-time without mass.

Hard to imagine a theory of gravitation allowing for this. And where is there no mass?


Quoted from wiki:
Flat Minkowski space is the simplest example of a vacuum solution.


You can read about this solution in here.

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:43 am
by Prismatic567
bahman wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
bahman wrote:Something which cannot be created has existed in eternal past. Let's go back to eternal past. We still have eternal past in back and eternal future ahead (this is the property of eternity). We observe that the thing exists in eternal future. Therefore the title is proved.

Nah, the OP is a truism.

There is the 'past' 'present' and 'future' and these are all human concepts and realization.

That is not true. Time exists independent from human.

There are two main contentions within philosophy regarding time, i.e.
1. time is independent of humans and
2. time is co-dependent with humans.

Common and conventional sense wise, it is very obvious time is independent of humans.
But with philosophical reflection, time is not independent of humans rather time is co-dependent with humans.

Time emerged from the consciousness of human beings.
Without human consciousness there is no realization of time at all.
Time is not something that has pre-existed and waiting to be realized by humans.
Time is co-dependent with human existence.
If is not possible for time to stand alone by itself without being complemented with human existence.

Prismatic567 wrote:The term 'eternal' is not a human concept.
'Eternal' is merely a mental thought that has no possibility of being real at all.

Humans can discuss the concept of past based on memory, the present based on current experiences and the future based on speculations and predictions then compare to the future present.

The idea of 'eternal' is not a possibility to be real at all.

Thus when your premises are imputed with an impossible element, your conclusion will follow with an impossibility to be real.

You need to show that the first premises, something which cannot be created has existed in eternal past, is wrong.

Your first premise is too messy and contained too many unjustifiable elements.

"something which cannot be created"
as long as it is a thing, it is co-created by humans.
there are no things which is never co-created by humans.

thus if something is not co-created, it would not have existed.
An uncreated thing would not have existed in the past.

I have also an eternal past is not tenable.

It would be easier for you to start with the argument or thesis;

Thesis: Thing-X exists but is not created.
Prove this thesis first before you proceed with other thesis.

Re: Something which cannot be created cannot be destroyed

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:48 pm
by bahman
Prismatic567 wrote:
bahman wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:Nah, the OP is a truism.

There is the 'past' 'present' and 'future' and these are all human concepts and realization.

That is not true. Time exists independent from human.

There are two main contentions within philosophy regarding time, i.e.
1. time is independent of humans and
2. time is co-dependent with humans.

Common and conventional sense wise, it is very obvious time is independent of humans.
But with philosophical reflection, time is not independent of humans rather time is co-dependent with humans.

Time emerged from the consciousness of human beings.
Without human consciousness there is no realization of time at all.
Time is not something that has pre-existed and waiting to be realized by humans.
Time is co-dependent with human existence.
If is not possible for time to stand alone by itself without being complemented with human existence.

Prismatic567 wrote:The term 'eternal' is not a human concept.
'Eternal' is merely a mental thought that has no possibility of being real at all.

Humans can discuss the concept of past based on memory, the present based on current experiences and the future based on speculations and predictions then compare to the future present.

The idea of 'eternal' is not a possibility to be real at all.

Thus when your premises are imputed with an impossible element, your conclusion will follow with an impossibility to be real.

You need to show that the first premises, something which cannot be created has existed in eternal past, is wrong.

Your first premise is too messy and contained too many unjustifiable elements.

"something which cannot be created"
as long as it is a thing, it is co-created by humans.
there are no things which is never co-created by humans.

thus if something is not co-created, it would not have existed.
An uncreated thing would not have existed in the past.

I have also an eternal past is not tenable.

It would be easier for you to start with the argument or thesis;

Thesis: Thing-X exists but is not created.
Prove this thesis first before you proceed with other thesis.

There are two types of time, psychological time and physical time. The existence of physical time is part of general relativity which has been shown to be true recently by gravitational wave experiment. Physical time exists independent of human, it curves, etc.