Animal protection is the most noble cause

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:33 am

That's basically my interest in philosophy: How ought one to live? After all, perhaps the answer can be pinned down philosophically.

Serendipper wrote:Sure it can! You ought to live in accordance with your goals.


Nothing is for certain until we are able to connect the dots between "I" here and now and a definitive understanding of existence itself.

And if your goals are existential contraptions, you embody them accordingly. They might just as easily have been other goals. And since [in my view] there is no way in which to determine how one ought to live [if in fact that is the case] the choices that one makes are always going to be problematic.

Serendipper wrote:The fact remains that we need meat to be healthy. Some vegans can manage with the aid of vitamins and lots of extra time and expense in, for instance, making cheese from cashews, but humans lost the ability to synthesize certain vitamins specifically because we evolved on a diet of meat, which freed time to pursue language, arts, and science instead of eating leaves all day.


I suspect however that any number of vegetarians will beg to differ. And then the part where genes and memes become hopelessly entangled in the debates. Both sides have reasonable arguments to make. So, in my view, using the tools of philosophy here will only take you so far. The rest is the existential contraption rooted in dasein and in whatever "leap" you take to one or another moral and political narrative. Or to one or another health narrative.


Serendipper wrote:How did it come to pass that natural beings, such as humans, cannot exist solely on plant diets?

Most omnivorous people in developed countries obtain enough vitamin B12 from consuming animal products including, meat, fish, eggs, and milk,[6] but there are no vegan sources other than B12-fortified foods or B12 supplements.

B12 is only produced in nature by certain bacteria, and archaea.[17][18][19]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Sources

When apes lost their big fermentation chamber guts and became human, they could no longer subsist on vegetation. Why not? Because they were eating meat and there was no longer a mechanism selecting for humans with big guts that could absorb B12 and ferment vegetation to extract other nutrients.

And humans are poor converters of K1 to K2 because K2 is of such abundance in meat and an herbaceous diet is heavily reliant on gut flora to make the conversion, so once again, as we transitioned to meat, we became more reliant upon it.

Also with carotene and vitamin A.

Also, sweating is evidence of hunting. Why do we sweat? Because we have no fangs or claws and can't run that fast, but we can hunt in the heat when other animals can't stay cool enough to run. https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-08-28/ ... n-function

And wearing their furs is almost certainly how we lost our hair.

Not only did we use animals for labor, but we also used their guts to digest plants, and then we ate the animal. By doing so, we lost the ability ourselves, and the fact the ability is gone is the empirical evidence for all to see.


Yes, there are the parts rooted in genes. And while I am not all that sophisticated in grasping this part of the debate myself, it's also a fact that in the modern world there are ways to sustain ones life [and ones health] without consuming animal products. And any number of folks will then reduce the discussion down to a moral conflict. From their perspective it is simply unethical to use and to abuse animals.

Then all the other lines are drawn regarding medical experiments and hunting and pets and animals in zoos and in circuses.

I look for qualities in people which serve my own goals and not objective righteousness, even though the people I'm choosing are serving objective righteousness. Fine, I guess. But I think they also see that looking out for each other is in each other's best interest and it's just coincidentally "objectively right" as a bonus. Everyone will always do what's best for him, and if I can convince him what's best for him is what's best for me, then I'll never need to worry about objective laws.


Sure, for all practical purposes, that is certainly one way in which to approach this when interacting with others. It sounds reasonable to me.

As long as you recognize that the goals you embody now are no less existential contraptions/fabrications ever and always subject to change given new experiences, new relationships and access to new information, knowledge and ideas.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:41 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote:Just talk to him like a regular Joe without being so rooted in academia.
I love the irony. In fact there is a lot of irony in your post here Serendipper. And that is a compliment. You're a gentler man than I am.


On the other hand, perhaps he is just less, uh, arrogant in approaching those who don't share his own point of view. :wink:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Artimas » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:16 am

I personally believe respect is the only issue here. Eat what you want ‘prey’ wise but show respect, have some honor. Grant a quick painless death but a happy joyful life. The issue is that people do not show love or respect for what gives them life, even at the expense of another’s, this is an immoral and honorless act.

Show respect to plants and animals alike, we all are life, animals and plants, we all live off of shit so be humble about your existence.

Plants are conscious and alive. It’s funny how people start saying what aliens are, “aliens are conscious, they’re this and that” before even understanding that plants are alive and conscious. It’s kind of an embarrassment for the human species, that type of thinking is. So quick to roll the red carpet out to an idea in your head but so quick to not care about what’s in front of you. This is a moral and spiritual issue not a dieting one. Like I have said countless times.

A "god" who deserves worship will be humble enough to reject it; A "god" who demands worship will not be worthy of it.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:59 am

iambiguous wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Serendipper wrote:Just talk to him like a regular Joe without being so rooted in academia.
I love the irony. In fact there is a lot of irony in your post here Serendipper. And that is a compliment. You're a gentler man than I am.


On the other hand, perhaps he is just less, uh, arrogant in approaching those who don't share his own point of view. :wink:
Oh, Uriah Heep, I know you're not arrogant.
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:00 pm

iambiguous wrote:
That's basically my interest in philosophy: How ought one to live? After all, perhaps the answer can be pinned down philosophically.

Serendipper wrote:Sure it can! You ought to live in accordance with your goals.


Nothing is for certain until we are able to connect the dots between "I" here and now and a definitive understanding of existence itself.

And if your goals are existential contraptions, you embody them accordingly. They might just as easily have been other goals. And since [in my view] there is no way in which to determine how one ought to live [if in fact that is the case] the choices that one makes are always going to be problematic.

Right, even if there is a right way to live, there is no way to determine it. And every advantage has disadvantages so it boils down to deciding which set of circumstances you prefer, where "you" is defined as whatever it is that's making you go, of its own nature.

So if my friend would not have mercy-killed that deer, it would have been eaten by coyotes or starved over the winter. Or maybe it would have lived to a ripe old age, then starved or got eaten. Or maybe it would have contracted that prion wasting disease or rabies. If we don't kill them, something will.

Should I shoot squirrels or let the owls pick them apart?

Serendipper wrote:The fact remains that we need meat to be healthy. Some vegans can manage with the aid of vitamins and lots of extra time and expense in, for instance, making cheese from cashews, but humans lost the ability to synthesize certain vitamins specifically because we evolved on a diet of meat, which freed time to pursue language, arts, and science instead of eating leaves all day.


I suspect however that any number of vegetarians will beg to differ. And then the part where genes and memes become hopelessly entangled in the debates. Both sides have reasonable arguments to make. So, in my view, using the tools of philosophy here will only take you so far. The rest is the existential contraption rooted in dasein and in whatever "leap" you take to one or another moral and political narrative. Or to one or another health narrative.


Serendipper wrote:How did it come to pass that natural beings, such as humans, cannot exist solely on plant diets?

Most omnivorous people in developed countries obtain enough vitamin B12 from consuming animal products including, meat, fish, eggs, and milk,[6] but there are no vegan sources other than B12-fortified foods or B12 supplements.

B12 is only produced in nature by certain bacteria, and archaea.[17][18][19]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Sources

When apes lost their big fermentation chamber guts and became human, they could no longer subsist on vegetation. Why not? Because they were eating meat and there was no longer a mechanism selecting for humans with big guts that could absorb B12 and ferment vegetation to extract other nutrients.

And humans are poor converters of K1 to K2 because K2 is of such abundance in meat and an herbaceous diet is heavily reliant on gut flora to make the conversion, so once again, as we transitioned to meat, we became more reliant upon it.

Also with carotene and vitamin A.

Also, sweating is evidence of hunting. Why do we sweat? Because we have no fangs or claws and can't run that fast, but we can hunt in the heat when other animals can't stay cool enough to run. https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-08-28/ ... n-function

And wearing their furs is almost certainly how we lost our hair.

Not only did we use animals for labor, but we also used their guts to digest plants, and then we ate the animal. By doing so, we lost the ability ourselves, and the fact the ability is gone is the empirical evidence for all to see.


Yes, there are the parts rooted in genes. And while I am not all that sophisticated in grasping this part of the debate myself, it's also a fact that in the modern world there are ways to sustain ones life [and ones health] without consuming animal products.

Sure, I'll concede that we're reliant either on animals or technological substitutes. The only concern I have is the extent to which science can mimic nature, especially when science is political and is more concerned with justifying the existence of vegetable oil to profit some capitalists than preserving our health, and more especially so considering there are other insatiable capitalists ready to peddle pills to repair any damage done by the bs science in the first place. Lots of profit for everyone so long as no one knows the truth.

And any number of folks will then reduce the discussion down to a moral conflict. From their perspective it is simply unethical to use and to abuse animals.

Especially considering that whatever it is making me go is the same thing making the animal go. How do I know that the player of the parts that is playing me, hasn't also played them?
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:50 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Oh, Uriah Heep, I know you're not arrogant.


Well, even if I were, it would be construed by me to be but another existential contraption.

And the bottom line is that there are in fact folks on both ends of the political spectrum who are quite arrogant regarding animal rights. And this arrogance stems not from any perceived existential contraption but from the fact that they are absolutely convinced that unless you think like they do and are "one of us" on this issue you are quite simply wrong.

Not only that but I'm not even arrogant regarding this. I recognize that it too is in turn just another subjective fabrication rooted in dasein.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby iambiguous » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:12 pm

Serendipper wrote:
Should I shoot squirrels or let the owls pick them apart?


However bizarre it might seem to some, even this can only be embedded in the gap between what any particular "I" thinks and feels about it "here and now" and all that can be [must be] known about the existence of exstence itself.

It's either all intertwined in what can only ever be or there is some measure of autonomy in the choices that any particular one of us make.

My point is only to suggest that in a world where we are free to choose, that choice does not appear to be one that can be pinned down philosophically. Or morally, politically, essentially, objectively.

Yes, there are the parts rooted in genes. And while I am not all that sophisticated in grasping this part of the debate myself, it's also a fact that in the modern world there are ways to sustain ones life [and ones health] without consuming animal products.


Serendipper wrote:Sure, I'll concede that we're reliant either on animals or technological substitutes. The only concern I have is the extent to which science can mimic nature, especially when science is political and is more concerned with justifying the existence of vegetable oil to profit some capitalists than preserving our health, and more especially so considering there are other insatiable capitalists ready to peddle pills to repair any damage done by the bs science in the first place. Lots of profit for everyone so long as no one knows the truth.


There is what science can demonstrate as being true for all of us. In other words, in regard to human beings eating or not eating animals.

Then there are all of the things that each of us have come to believe is true "in our heads" about this relationship. Existentially. Here we can either demonstrate that others ought to believe it too or we can't.

Again, what else is there until those dots between "I" and Existence itself are connected?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:04 am

Will you explain what you mean by existence itself? To me, it's like saying "the magnet is attracted to the iron by magnetism, but what about magnetism itself?" There is no magnetism itself. Magnetism is the interaction between magnets. Existence is the interaction between subject and object and there is no such thing as existence itself.
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:04 am

I'm sorry but tortured animals can be some of the best tasting ones.

A little foie gras and veal sandwich? Yes please.
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:20 pm

Serendipper wrote:Will you explain what you mean by existence itself? To me, it's like saying "the magnet is attracted to the iron by magnetism, but what about magnetism itself?" There is no magnetism itself. Magnetism is the interaction between magnets. Existence is the interaction between subject and object and there is no such thing as existence itself.


The irony being that any explanation I might offer for existence is no less embedded in the gap between what I think/believe it is and all that can be [must be] known about it in order to explain it. Which of course would seem to be the case for everyone else too.

You can start with "I think therefore I am" or any other initial assumption to note that this thing we call "existence" in the English language appears to be all around us.

Or is that all just in our head? Or part of a sim world, or a dream world, or a matrix --- or one or another mindboggling contraption that we are not even privy to.

Here we are discussing just one tiny part of it: to eat or not to eat animals.

But that and everything else is still entangled in this:

There are known knowns about existence. These are things we know that we know about it. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know about it. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know about it.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby iambiguous » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:25 pm

Mr Reasonable wrote:I'm sorry but tortured animals can be some of the best tasting ones.

A little foie gras and veal sandwich? Yes please.


I'll run this by Tyler Durden but he's already crossed you off the list.

Let's just hope he doesn't decide to eat you. :lol:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:04 am

Never heard of her.
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Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:01 pm

I do what I can.

I have four dogs and two cats all rescue animals, some that had no hope of adoption as they don't fit the category as cute, white and fluffy. One of these has severe behavioural problems due to abuse from previous owner, but with love and a good diet and exercise and good care they are the most loyal and loving animals. It doesn't take much for them to trust you and know you have their best interests at heart.

I only donate to causes that involve animal welfare.

I am lobbying to stop live animal exports from my country.

If I can help an animal in any way I will do so without hesitation.

Some situations break your heart and show what mankind is capable of.
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:39 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:I'm sorry but tortured animals can be some of the best tasting ones.

A little foie gras and veal sandwich? Yes please.

So I was riding along today collecting maple sap and out of freaking nowhere, probably because I was riding by my pet geese, it suddenly came to me that: weren't you at least metaphorically ass-raped by the prison system? So I found the thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=192293&p=2652998&hilit=prosecutor#p2652989

"Turd, are you just now realizing that there's such a thing as widespread, institutionalized mistreatment of prisoners?"

While you were in, did you discover if that particular species of tortured animal tastes better? :evilfun:
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:19 am

I didn't ever serve any time in prison. I was in jail for about 4 hours or so in 2015. And I spent the night in one once in 2008. And a few hours in this one or that one here and there a handful of other times.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:52 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:I didn't ever serve any time in prison. I was in jail for about 4 hours or so in 2015. And I spent the night in one once in 2008. And a few hours in this one or that one here and there a handful of other times.

So are you crusading for prison reform or does it not matter that much?
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:23 am

Both.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:37 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:Both.

Why are you crusading if it doesn't matter that much?
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:38 am

Just to stay in practice.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:23 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:Just to stay in practice.

If it doesn't matter, then why stay in practice?
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:35 am

In case one day it does.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:38 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:In case one day it does.

And what could make it matter?
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:41 am

There's no way of ever knowing.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Serendipper » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:03 am

Mr Reasonable wrote:There's no way of ever knowing.

Has it ever mattered?
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Re: Animal protection is the most noble cause

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:33 pm

Again, no way of ever knowing. But probably. I mean, over a long enough period of time, anything that's possible becomes increasingly probable.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
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