Important Announcement about a new paper on ethics

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Re: Important Announcement about a new paper on ethics

Postby thinkdr » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:35 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Hitler made a commitment to be good.


What is your evidence for making this claim?

And how do you define "good"? Do you mean it here in the Ethical sense of the word, as defined by Dr. R. S. Hartman in his magnum opus, THE STRUCTURE OF VALUE.
:?:

[See the entry "Science of Value" in Wikipedia....]
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018) [NEW]
:!: http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf


[size=115]LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach (2014) http://tinyurl.com/mfcgzfz

ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

and ASPECTS OF ETHICS http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/ ... ics%20.pdf

When you Google this selection you may wish tostart with page 20 to skip the technicalities. Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/Ethics_A_College_Course.pdf
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Re: Important Announcement about a new paper on ethics

Postby thinkdr » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:48 pm

phyllo wrote:
thinkdr wrote:The priority is first to devote yourself to being moral, ethical - to being a decent person who intends to be nice - to make that commitment, and thus set up a personal obligatory norm for yourself; and then live it. Put it into action by your subsequent conduct.



You can decide at some point "to do good". What would it mean to decide "I am good"?

You are evaluated by others based on what you do, so simply saying "I am good" is not going to get any response from them without some sort of actions.
.


This exhibits the Straw Man Fallacy. I never said anything about "I am good." In fact, I recommended having humility, when it comes to being morally good.
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018) [NEW]
:!: http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf


[size=115]LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach (2014) http://tinyurl.com/mfcgzfz

ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

and ASPECTS OF ETHICS http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/ ... ics%20.pdf

When you Google this selection you may wish tostart with page 20 to skip the technicalities. Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/Ethics_A_College_Course.pdf
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Re: Important Announcement about a new paper on ethics

Postby phyllo » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:36 am

thinkdr wrote:
phyllo wrote:
thinkdr wrote:The priority is first to devote yourself to being moral, ethical - to being a decent person who intends to be nice - to make that commitment, and thus set up a personal obligatory norm for yourself; and then live it. Put it into action by your subsequent conduct.



You can decide at some point "to do good". What would it mean to decide "I am good"?

You are evaluated by others based on what you do, so simply saying "I am good" is not going to get any response from them without some sort of actions.
.


This exhibits the Straw Man Fallacy. I never said anything about "I am good." In fact, I recommended having humility, when it comes to being morally good.
You quoted this :
Those who have enlightenment say: be good first and then you will do good things.

and this:

When you are conscious, you cannot help yourself but do good and be good only.


The implications seem pretty clear... one decides to "be good first" and therefore one is good without having done any good thing.

Or one decides "I am conscious" which is equivalent to "I am good".
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Re: Important Announcement about a new paper on ethics

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:56 am

thinkdr wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Hitler made a commitment to be good.


What is your evidence for making this claim?
What is your evidence for the claim that committment to the good leads to what you think it does? In any case, I don't think that anyone doubts that Hitler thought it was good to raise and keep pure Germany and the Aryan race. All the experts I've read seem to agree on this and it fits, for me, with my sense of his behavior and how people act in general. Unfortunately people have different ideas about what the Good is. He committed to this with great passion, at the repeated risk of his own life, and I have little doubt he would have been put to death after the war and he likely knew that but pushed on fanatically.

I am pressing on specific points in your thesis because to me it seems this kind of ethical approach has been tried again and again in history with the limited success it has had, but it is presented here as 'now there is a way for all of us to get along' as if something new is being presented. It boils down to a call for the golden rule coupled with judgments of selfishness. We've heard this over the centuries in many forms. It is not new and I see nothing it this version of it that will be more catchy then older versions.

This is not a reason NOT to pursue convincing people to care more for others. But you present it, and have for years, as if it is some kind of new, original panacea. But it clearly is not. If you do not have the funcamental understandings of human nature and why this idea does not catch on, how can you present the ideas in a new way so that it will?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=193887#p2698772
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=193887#p2698838
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Re: Important Announcement about a new paper on ethics

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:03 pm

I enjoyed the paper overall, but found it too full of cliché and fairly empty of scientific documentation. I'd prefer a decent inclusion of evolutionary ethics in any paper that attempts to explain what people are like and what they do. The big question that embraces religious, scientific and philosophical theories of human behavior is WHY? One could ask==
1, Did our evolutionary development into self consciousness, causing a distinction between self and other, contribute to our thoughts on how others should be treated?
2. Is altruism an adaptation that benefits human survival?
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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Re: Important Announcement about a new paper on ethics

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:19 pm

thinkdr


If you become totally conscious, you will do good things just because you want to do them. Because you feel it at your core that it is the right thing to do.


But *doing good things* is also subjective thinking, is it not?

Is *because you want to do them* necessarily being totally conscious? Is it necessarily the "right and reasonable" thing to do? Wouldn't "totally conscious" necessitate trying to be more objective, thinking out of the box, imagining what can happen if I do this thing that I think is the best?
How often have we tried to do good things only to discover that it was actually the wrong thing to do - in hindsight.
Wouldn't *totally conscious* also dictate that the first or even second answer might not necessarily be the *good thing* to do?
Wouldn't *totally conscious* allow us to intuit that there are no easy answers to morality and ethics and doing good?
Couldn't *totally conscious* make us at times almost tremble about a decision we have to make and what repercussions can occur as a result of it?


When you are conscious, you cannot help yourself but do good and be good only.


But again, "good" is based in our subjective thinking, is it not?
Is altruism always based on complete knowledge and unselfishness?

"Hell is paved with good intentions." Perhaps it might be better to actually hold back and try to help ourselves NOT do certain things in certain situations.
Is it always true that *doing something is better than doing nothing* or is *discretion the better part of valor at times*?


The lines of being good and doing good can be blurry and conflicted in relation to other things.

Look at the bombing of Nagasaki and Iwo Jima? We thought we were doing good and ending the war quicker and saving countless in the foreseeable future lives instead of letting things go on as they might have and having the possibility of saving lives.

What kind of conscious thinking and goodness precipitated the deaths of the innocent Japanese people, especially the children, who were bombed died, 90,000–146,000 in Hiroshima and 39,000–80,000 in Nagasaki and those who suffered the aftereffects.


The effects will come back to you immediately, you don't need to wait for another life or heaven.


What effects are those? The *feel good* effects?
That would depend on who is feeling them, no?
Do moral ethical people feel any effects when they know that their decision destroyed countless lives albeit their decision may have possibly saved other lives?
Do they bask in the glory of having been good and having done good or can they also be haunted by their decisions at the same time?
“Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.”
Viktor E. Frankl



It Felt Love

How did the rose
Ever open its heart
And give to this world
All its beauty?
It felt the encouragement of light
Against its being,
Otherwise,
We all remain
Too frightened
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Re: Important Announcement about a new paper on ethics

Postby thinkdr » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:53 pm

Thank you Arcturus, Phyllo, and Karpel for some good questions!

You make people think.

Lots of your queries could be answered, or obviated, if you read over some of the selections listed below.

There is no doubt, though, that they would raise new questions, albeit on a new level. Let's hope the new set of questions would aid in producing a new and better ethical theory than the tentative one that I humbly offer.
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018) [NEW]
:!: http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf


[size=115]LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach (2014) http://tinyurl.com/mfcgzfz

ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

and ASPECTS OF ETHICS http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/ ... ics%20.pdf

When you Google this selection you may wish tostart with page 20 to skip the technicalities. Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/Ethics_A_College_Course.pdf
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Re: Important Announcement about a new paper on ethics

Postby thinkdr » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:35 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I enjoyed the paper overall...

Is altruism an adaptation that benefits human survival?


Yes, it is.


Of all the critics, at least you read the essay. This speaks well of you, Terrellus. And I thank you for your comments and for your thoughtfulness.

Tell us more about your views on the evolutionary approach to understanding human beings. Have you read yet Steven Pinker's book - Enlightenment Now: the case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress.

We all live by some mythology ...until we have sciences that will explain everything. Dr. Pinker doesn't seem to be aware that Humanism too is a religion. Science will likely never explain everything since on its frontier it always raises new questions for further research.

So Philosophy will always have something to do; it will always have a role to play.

You speak of altruism. We find a lot of it in Sweden which is setting a good example for other nations to follow.
All of the cars manufactured now in Sweden are electric cars, and Sweden is setting up charging stations at frequent locations.

Furthermore, I have come to the conclusion that as the price of energy drops, and as sources of energy become available to more people [such as solar panels on every new roof built] then prosperity will be more widespread - and, hopefully, there will be less incentives to be selfish and/or self-centered (= unethical.)

We must also establish treatment centers for the lessening of that malady known as Greed.
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018) [NEW]
:!: http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf


[size=115]LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach (2014) http://tinyurl.com/mfcgzfz

ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

and ASPECTS OF ETHICS http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/ ... ics%20.pdf

When you Google this selection you may wish tostart with page 20 to skip the technicalities. Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/Ethics_A_College_Course.pdf
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Re: Important Announcement about a new paper on ethics

Postby phyllo » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:14 pm

You speak of altruism. We find a lot of it in Sweden which is setting a good example for other nations to follow.
All of the cars manufactured now in Sweden are electric cars, and Sweden is setting up charging stations at frequent locations.
Are you saying that electric vehicles are ethical and diesel/gasoline vehicles are unethical?
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Re: Important Announcement about a new paper on ethics

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:55 am

thinkdr wrote:You speak of altruism. We find a lot of it in Sweden which is setting a good example for other nations to follow.
All of the cars manufactured now in Sweden are electric cars, and Sweden is setting up charging stations at frequent locations.
So it is not in anyone's (any country's) self-interest to reduce the use of internal combustion engines? There are no selfish reasons to protect the environment? The Swedes are doing this for other people?
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Re: Important Announcement about a new paper on ethics

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:19 pm

thinkdr,
Thanks for your reference to Steven Pinker. I have not read his works since "How the Mind Works"(late 90s)
Human evolution, whether one considers it to be fortuitous or teleological, appears to be adaptations of Self to what is beneficial to Self. Despite "man's inhumanity to man", evolution appears to be geared toward survival for humans. That humans can come to realize their interdependence with all that is Other in ecosystems, is a hope to be desired as an antidote for the ravages of greed.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
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