Man is the Measure of All Things

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Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:15 am

    "Man is the measure of all things"
    Protagoras 490 – c. 420 BC

Wiki wrote:He [Protagoras] also is believed to have created a major controversy during ancient times through his statement that, "Man is the measure of all things",
interpreted by Plato to mean that there is no absolute truth, but that which individuals deem to be the truth.

Although there is reason to question the extent of the interpretation of his arguments that has followed, that concept of individual relativity was revolutionary for the time, and contrasted with other philosophical doctrines that claimed the universe was based on something objective, outside human influence or perceptions.


As I had mentioned one of the most contentious philosophical issues is the debate between the Philosophical Realist's independent reality against the Philosophical Anti-Realist's interdependent reality.

Protagoras, note 490 – c. 420 BC, was one of the earliest philosophical anti-realists. This philosophical anti-realism views stretched back further than the Greek philosophies* to India to perhaps >1,000 BC. * Influenced by Indian Philosophy.

Philosophical Realism's external reality [seemingly the obvious*] is merely an extension from Common Sense Realism without deeper philosophical reflection. Because humans has evolved from billion of years of foundation to look outward and externally against threats from outside. Thus the attention is rarely inward reflection to the self. It actually take very deep philosophical reflections to make a 180 degree turn to the self [note Know Thyself].

We have a gang of Philosophical Realists here who often jeered [based on ignorance] whenever I present from the Philosophical Anti-Realists' position.

Worst the Philosophical Realists will label my views as 'solipsism' when in fact they are solipsistic by their own claims.

"Man is the measure of all things"
Agree? or understand but do not agree?
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby phyllo » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:11 pm

Generally, you're confusing "what is" - reality and "what we say about it" - truth. That's why you keep referring to the alternate truths, perspectives, conceptualizations and abstractions as "alternate realities". If you changed your phrasing, then you would avoid a lot of conflict.
Worst the Philosophical Realists will label my views as 'solipsism' when in fact they are solipsistic by their own claims.
Well, if there is no external reality, then there is only internal reality. And internal reality must be in your mind.

And that's the position that you are presenting. Right?

How can anybody who claims an external mind-independent reality be a solipsist?
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby James S Saint » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:41 pm

phyllo wrote:Generally, you're confusing "what is" - reality and "what we say about it" - truth. That's why you keep referring to the alternate truths, perspectives, conceptualizations and abstractions as "alternate realities". If you changed your phrasing, then you would avoid a lot of conflict.

Exactly. It's the same ole "Map vs Terrain" conflation of the new-agers. Small minds crawling up from dark regions haven't figured out the difference yet (might help if they would pay attention to the language). I suspect it is an issue concerning some brains not being able to handle language very well.

Prismatic567 wrote:"Man is the measure of all things"

Only to a dark-age idiot.

In English, the word "Reality" does NOT mean "perspective", "opinion", or "belief".
And in English and a rational mind, there can only be one collection of ALL there is, else it wouldn't be "ALL" (even though such a collection can be ordered very differently and have different names).

Learn the word-concept relations.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Arminius » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:06 am

Prismatic, you are jeering about you yourself.

In addition, it is exaggerated to say that "Protagoras was an anti-realist".

Protagoras said that "truth is relative", because he thought that "all interpreters and even each of all interpreters do not remain the same but always change during the time". Protagoras was a relativist but not an anti-realist. Additionally, Protagoras was more a subjectivist than an objectivist.

One can also say that "all and each of all interpreters are relative", because "truth never changes, whereas all interpreters and even each of all interpreters permanently change during the time". And this one who says this is not an anti-idealist but merely a relativist too. Additionally, this one is more an objectivist than a subjectivist.

So we are again at the point of the subject/object duality.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:12 am

phyllo wrote:Generally, you're confusing "what is" - reality and "what we say about it" - truth. That's why you keep referring to the alternate truths, perspectives, conceptualizations and abstractions as "alternate realities". If you changed your phrasing, then you would avoid a lot of conflict.
Unfortunately you did not understand the following;

.. "Man is the measure of all things",
interpreted by Plato to mean that there is no absolute truth, but that which individuals deem to be the truth.


that concept of individual relativity was revolutionary for the time, and contrasted with other philosophical doctrines that claimed the universe was based on something objective, outside human influence or perceptions.


Note the above highlighted;

    1. 'NO absolute truth'
    2. "the universe was based on something objective, outside human influence or perceptions"

It meant there is no absolute truth [1] to the reality that the Universe was based on something external [2], something objective outside human influence and perception.

Thus Protagoras believed what is the Universe is realized and actualized [not perceived as] on something within human influence and perception.

The problem is you are so locked in the habitualized mental set of looking at things externally that you forget you look at yourself [subject] as a participant as a co-creator of the reality that you are in.

There is an obvious reality of internality and externality, but this is not the final conclusion of what is the so-called reality.


Worst the Philosophical Realists will label my views as 'solipsism' when in fact they are solipsistic by their own claims.
Well, if there is no external reality, then there is only internal reality. And internal reality must be in your mind.

And that's the position that you are presenting. Right?

How can anybody who claims an external mind-independent reality be a solipsist?
Problem is you are caught in the habituated internal versus external reality.
As above I never claimed there is no external reality. If there is a train coming towards me, I will get off the rails physically.

What I claimed is you are wrong in claiming there is only external reality in the absolute sense.

I agree there is external reality, i.e. we see 'real' things outside ourselves.
But this 'real' is not absolutely real as claimed by you and the Philosophical Realists.

What is Really Real?
There is the so-called reality [common sense, Science, etc.] but philosophically [more realistically] this reality is emergent with the self in complementarity as co-creator of that reality.
Within this co-created reality, there is externality and internality.
Therefore this external and internal reality are subsets of the emergent reality with the self as co-creator.

How can anybody who claims an external mind-independent reality be a solipsist?
Note you and the Philosophical Realists claim the following;

wiki wrote:1. Realism (in philosophy) about a given object is the view that this object exists in reality independently of our conceptual scheme.

2. Realists tend to believe that whatever we believe now is only an approximation of reality but that the accuracy and fullness of understanding can be improved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism


From the above;

    a. You believe there is a 'real' external reality, but note you are only believing based on your experience and perception, which is not 'what is' or 'the perceived'

    b. What you are experiencing and believing is only an approximation of that external reality. [2 above].

    c. So there is a GAP between what is your supposed to be external reality and your perception and sense data.

    d. I call this the Reality GAP.

    e. Because of this reality Gap, you are in fact not realizing and actualizing what is your supposed externality reality. What you have is merely an approximation of THAT reality.

    f. In this sense the only reality you will ever have is ONLY in your mind which is forever and eternally will be an approximation of THAT reality.

    g. So ultimately what is real to you is only you and your mind.

    h. That is what is 'solipsism' as defined, i.e. -the view or theory that the self [and his mind] is all that can be known to exist.
    QED

The above is not my original idea, I adapted that from Kant who presented the proof in great details.
Show me where I am wrong in the above? If you can, you will be a better philosopher than Kant.
Last edited by Prismatic567 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:17 am

James S Saint wrote:
phyllo wrote:Generally, you're confusing "what is" - reality and "what we say about it" - truth. That's why you keep referring to the alternate truths, perspectives, conceptualizations and abstractions as "alternate realities". If you changed your phrasing, then you would avoid a lot of conflict.

Exactly. It's the same ole "Map vs Terrain" conflation of the new-agers. Small minds crawling up from dark regions haven't figured out the difference yet (might help if they would pay attention to the language). I suspect it is an issue concerning some brains not being able to handle language very well.

Prismatic567 wrote:"Man is the measure of all things"

Only to a dark-age idiot.

In English, the word "Reality" does NOT mean "perspective", "opinion", or "belief".
And in English and a rational mind, there can only be one collection of ALL there is, else it wouldn't be "ALL" (even though such a collection can be ordered very differently and have different names).

Learn the word-concept relations.

So Plato is a dark-age idiot. Looks like you are trying to be smarter and more philosophically intelligent than Plato. Plato did not agree but he understood what Protagoras meant.

.. "Man is the measure of all things",
interpreted by Plato to mean that there is no absolute truth, but that which individuals deem to be the truth.


Note my reply to Phyllo above.
Note this is not an English forum but a Philosophical Forum where language is merely a crude tool of Philosophy-proper.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:20 am

Arminius wrote:Prismatic, you are jeering about you yourself.

In addition, it is exaggerated to say that "Protagoras was an anti-realist".

Protagoras said that "truth is relative", because he thought that "all interpreters and even each of all interpreters do not remain the same but always change during the time". Protagoras was a relativist but not an anti-realist. Additionally, Protagoras was more a subjectivist than an objectivist.

One can also say that "all and each of all interpreters are relative", because "truth never changes, whereas all interpreters and even each of all interpreters permanently change during the time". And this one who says this is not an anti-idealist but merely a relativist too. Additionally, this one is more an objectivist than a subjectivist.

So we are again at the point of the subject/object duality.
Note my reply to Phyllo above.
Note Plato mentioned 'absolute truth' [not interpretations] in the first para and refer to Philosophical Realism in the latter para.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby James S Saint » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:28 am

Prism, you really need to make your own case and stop trying to argue what much older and wiser people than you believed and said. You are not understanding anyone's words properly (nor using them properly) and confusing yourself considerably. Fortunately most people can see your errors pretty easily.

Prismatic567 wrote:What you are experiencing and believing is only an approximation of that external reality.

Everyone, except you it seems, already knows that. They are way, way past you. You haven't gotten out of the shallow waters yet.


And if you are going to throw Plato into it, it might help if you would stop conflating absolute morals with absolute truth. Plato also believed that NO ONE was predisposed to evil, shooting down yet another of your sermons.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:45 am

James S Saint wrote:Prism, you really need to make your own case and stop trying to argue what much older and wiser people than you believed and said. You are not understanding anyone's words properly (nor using them properly) and confusing yourself considerably. Fortunately most people can see your errors pretty easily.

Prismatic567 wrote:What you are experiencing and believing is only an approximation of that external reality.

Everyone, except you it seems, already knows that. They are way, way past you. You haven't gotten out of the shallow waters yet.


And if you are going to throw Plato into it, it might help if you would stop conflating absolute morals with absolute truth. Plato also believed that NO ONE was predisposed to evil, shooting down yet another of your sermons.
I did not say I agree with Plato's all or even his main thesis, e.g. Forms, Universals, the Ideal, etc.
I stated in the OP, Plato understood [not agreed] Protagoras re absolute truth.

Btw, do you have any solid counters against Protagoras subject to you understanding his philosophy re the OP.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby James S Saint » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:02 am

Prismatic567 wrote:Btw, do you have any solid counters against Protagoras subject to you understanding his philosophy re the OP.

I will counter/argue/debate with YOU, not with what you think other people have said.

Now what is YOUR argument? And try to get the words right.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:09 am

James S Saint wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:Btw, do you have any solid counters against Protagoras subject to you understanding his philosophy re the OP.

I will counter/argue/debate with YOU, not with what you think other people have said.

Now what is YOUR argument? And try to get the words right.
The central point of argument is Philosophical Realism versus Philosophical Anti-Realism which I have raised in various posts.

Many posters here think the ideas of Philosophical Realism versus Philosophical Anti-Realism is my own invention.

The purpose of the OP is to highlight the issue of Philosophical Realism versus Philosophical Anti-Realism in Western Philosophy it traceable to Protagoras in 420 BC.

Any commentary or critique of the Protagoras' statement is thus still related/relevant to the issue of Philosophical Realism versus Philosophical Anti-Realism.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby James S Saint » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:32 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:Btw, do you have any solid counters against Protagoras subject to you understanding his philosophy re the OP.

I will counter/argue/debate with YOU, not with what you think other people have said.

Now what is YOUR argument? And try to get the words right.
The central point of argument is Philosophical Realism versus Philosophical Anti-Realism which I have raised in various posts.

And in those posts, you have demonstrated that you don't understand the words.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:40 am

Prismatic567 wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:Btw, do you have any solid counters against Protagoras subject to you understanding his philosophy re the OP.

I will counter/argue/debate with YOU, not with what you think other people have said.

Now what is YOUR argument? And try to get the words right.
The central point of argument is Philosophical Realism versus Philosophical Anti-Realism which I have raised in various posts.


James S Saint wrote:And in those posts, you have demonstrated that you don't understand the words.

Which words? Note it is very typical different people have different views in relations to words used in Philosophy. For example the term 'realism' in Philosophical Realism is a farce.

What is worst from you is, your philosophical knowledge is so narrow and shallow that you do not understand the philosophical terms.

I suggest you research on the topics extensively and do not just confine to 'Wiki' which I had used merely as a lead and convenience.
Last edited by Prismatic567 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby James S Saint » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:42 am

Prismatic567 wrote:What is worst from you is, your philosophical knowledge is so narrow and shallow that you do not understand the philosophical terms.
I suggest you research on the topics extensively and do not just confine to 'Wiki' which I had used merely as a lead and convenience.

So that's your argument?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby James S Saint » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:38 am

Prismatic567 wrote:Which words? Note it is very typical different people have different views in relations to words used in Philosophy. For example the term 'realism' in Philosophical Realism is a farce.

Well you noticed the right word, "Realism". You still don't comprehend what the word means. You keep wanting to argue about whether there is a Reality. The word "Realism" isn't about Reality. It is about only the belief that there is a Reality.

A realist is one who (just as your own quote stated) accepts the point of view, the perspective, the belief, that there is a reality. Whether he is right or wrong about that is irrelevant to the fact that he is a "Philosophical Realist".

Realism is a BELIEF concerning a Reality.

Now. Can you understand at least that one word? That it is merely a belief or point of view and not a statement or declaration?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Arminius » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:59 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:
Arminius wrote:Prismatic, you are jeering about you yourself.

In addition, it is exaggerated to say that "Protagoras was an anti-realist".

Protagoras said that "truth is relative", because he thought that "all interpreters and even each of all interpreters do not remain the same but always change during the time". Protagoras was a relativist but not an anti-realist. Additionally, Protagoras was more a subjectivist than an objectivist.

One can also say that "all and each of all interpreters are relative", because "truth never changes, whereas all interpreters and even each of all interpreters permanently change during the time". And this one who says this is not an anti-idealist but merely a relativist too. Additionally, this one is more an objectivist than a subjectivist.

So we are again at the point of the subject/object duality.

Note my reply to Phyllo above.

You are again refusing to - at least - try to understand what other ILP members say. This is because of your stubborn ignorance. You are ignoring all arguments that have proven you wrong, and you are isolating those arguments of the other ILP members that can only be attacked then if and only if they are isolated from their context, so that they just look like mere statements but not like arguments any more. Your many logical fallacies and your anti-logical mindset in general can be proven very easily. Almost everyone has done this in each of your threads.

Another point is that you misuse famous, preferably the most famous philosophers like Kant and Plato as strawmen. The last time you misused Kant as a strawman, this time you misuse Plato and Protagoras as strawmen.

Prismatic567 wrote:Note Plato mentioned 'absolute truth' [not interpretations] in the first para and refer to Philosophical Realism in the latter para.

Plato interpreted as well as you do. You yourself quoted this:

Prismatic567 wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:.. "Man is the measure of all things",
interpreted by Plato to mean that there is no absolute truth, but that which individuals deem to be the truth.

Yes, INTERPRETED BY PLATO.

Note what I said about the truth.

But what does your "anti-reality" mean?

Every "anti-reality" refers to reality. It is also an interpretation of reality. Otherwise a speaker of "anti-reality" would not know what this speaker is talking about (this reminds me of somebody.)

Plato said that the true reality was an ideality as the reality of the ideas. The ideal realm is different from the real realm. But in order to exist, the ideal realm must be a bit similar to the real realm. Otherwise we could not say anything about it, since we would not know know what it "is". We have to refer to reality even then if we are talking about ideality.

If ideality is to you what you call "anti-reality", then it is your interpretation, so that you would have to tell us what your definition of "reality" is, but you have already said almost everywhere that you believe in your schizoid and delusional "multiple realities". So it is very probable that you believe that the "anti-reality" also belongs to this "multiple realities". In addition, you believe in an "anti-objectivity", which means that you believe in solipsism. So according to your belief, each solipsist has an own reality or/and an own "anti-reality" or/and even own "multiple realities", and you do not care about the contradictions that are integrated in your belief and religion.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:50 pm

Protagoras wrote:Man is the measure of all things


James S Saint wrote:Only to a dark-age idiot.


So if I only see the front of an object (e.g. human face) and assume that this object has a back of specific kind (e.g. back of head) I am not the one who is performing this measurement? Instead, this measurement is objective i.e. true no matter what? Simply because one says so?
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:00 am

phyllo wrote:How can anybody who claims an external mind-independent reality be a solipsist?


You really don't understand the answer to this question?

What one believes and how one acts are two different things. I can believe in realism but act like a solipsist. If I think that all of my opinions are necessarily true, i.e. that they are necessarily unquestionably reality itself, then I am practically a solipsist even if I believe that my opinions reflect an external reality that is somewhere out there.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:12 am

James S Saint wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:Which words? Note it is very typical different people have different views in relations to words used in Philosophy. For example the term 'realism' in Philosophical Realism is a farce.

Well you noticed the right word, "Realism". You still don't comprehend what the word means. You keep wanting to argue about whether there is a Reality. The word "Realism" isn't about Reality. It is about only the belief that there is a Reality.

A realist is one who (just as your own quote stated) accepts the point of view, the perspective, the belief, that there is a reality. Whether he is right or wrong about that is irrelevant to the fact that he is a "Philosophical Realist".

Realism is a BELIEF concerning a Reality.

Now. Can you understand at least that one word? That it is merely a belief or point of view and not a statement or declaration?
'BElIEF' is worse.
The critical point is how do you prove your belief of Realism is true?
Truth = facts = verifiable and justifiable by evidence and supported by reason.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby UrGod » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:27 am

    I contradict as no one has contradicted hitherto, and am nevertheless the reverse of a negative spirit. I am the harbinger of joy, the like of which has never existed before; I have discovered tasks of such lofty greatness that, until my time, no one had any idea of such things. Mankind can begin to have fresh hopes, only now that I have lived. Thus, I am necessarily a man of Fate. For when Truth enters the lists against the falsehood of ages, shocks are bound to ensue, and a spell of earthquakes, followed by the transposition of hills and valleys, such as the world has never yet imagined even in its dreams. The concept "politics" then becomes elevated entirely to the sphere of spiritual warfare. All the mighty realms of the ancient order of society are blown into space—for they are all based on falsehood: there will be wars, the like of which have never been seen on earth before. Only from my time and after me will politics on a large scale exist on earth.

-Nietzsche, Ecce Homo
I am the abyss that the abyss must learn to stare into.


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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Prismatic567 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:33 am

Arminius wrote:Note what I said about the truth.

But what does your "anti-reality" mean?

Every "anti-reality" refers to reality. It is also an interpretation of reality. Otherwise a speaker of "anti-reality" would not know what this speaker is talking about (this reminds me of somebody.)

Plato said that the true reality was an ideality as the reality of the ideas. The ideal realm is different from the real realm. But in order to exist, the ideal realm must be a bit similar to the real realm. Otherwise we could not say anything about it, since we would not know know what it "is". We have to refer to reality even then if we are talking about ideality.

If ideality is to you what you call "anti-reality", then it is your interpretation, so that you would have to tell us what your definition of "reality" is, but you have already said almost everywhere that you believe in your schizoid and delusional "multiple realities". So it is very probable that you believe that the "anti-reality" also belongs to this "multiple realities". In addition, you believe in an "anti-objectivity", which means that you believe in solipsism. So according to your belief, each solipsist has an own reality or/and an own "anti-reality" or/and even own "multiple realities", and you do not care about the contradictions that are integrated in your belief and religion.
Note Philosophical Anti-Realists do not believe in anti-reality per se. "Anti-" in this case is merely 'against' and Philosophical Anti-Realists have their own theory of what-is-reality.

What is reality is reality and that has to be justified philosophically and rationally.

What happened was within the Western Philosophy community, a group of people claimed their views represent reality, thus 'Realism'.
Note this is only a claim but it is not necessary true.
Philosophical Realism as representing what-is-reality is a half-cooked theory.

The Philosophical Anti-Realists are a group of those who do not agree with the Realists' view of 'what is reality'.
The Philosophical Anti-Realists has their own philosophical views of 'what is reality.'
The Philosophical Anti-Realists general believe reality is mind-interdependent but there are various forms to this general view.

which means that you believe in solipsism.
You may not realize it, in fact your views are solipistic and implicit/inherent your view of reality is solipsism. Note my proof of this in this thread;
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=193716
Try to prove me wrong on this!
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:59 am

There is such a thing as linear thinking and in some minds this form of thinking is the only form of thinking that exists.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby phyllo » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:43 pm

If I think that all of my opinions are necessarily true, i.e. that they are necessarily unquestionably reality itself, then I am practically a solipsist even if I believe that my opinions reflect an external reality that is somewhere out there.
It's possible that any opinion that you have, can be false/wrong.

However, nobody goes around thinking "I have this opinion and I know it's false". That wouldn't make any sense. Everybody thinks that the opinions they hold are true.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby James S Saint » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:43 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:What happened was within the Western Philosophy community, a group of people claimed their views represent reality, thus 'Realism'.

False.

"Realism" is the belief that there is a Reality, regardless of whether anyone fully understands that reality.

Learn the words.

Prismatic567 wrote:The Philosophical Anti-Realists are a group of those who do not agree with the Realists' view of 'what is reality'.

False.

The "Anti-realist" believes that there is NO Reality (just as you have claimed in the past). I would say that YOU are an "anti-realist", but in reality, I think that you are merely confused and too busy preaching your sermons to learn anything.


Prismatic567 wrote:
which means that you believe in solipsism.
You may not realize it, in fact your views are solipistic and implicit/inherent your view of reality is solipsism. Note my proof of this in this thread;
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 1&t=193716
Try to prove me wrong on this!

He has a good reason to "not realize this", because it is nonsense.
Last edited by James S Saint on Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Man is the Measure of All Things

Postby Magnus Anderson » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:09 pm

phyllo wrote:
If I think that all of my opinions are necessarily true, i.e. that they are necessarily unquestionably reality itself, then I am practically a solipsist even if I believe that my opinions reflect an external reality that is somewhere out there.
It's possible that any opinion that you have, can be false/wrong.

However, nobody goes around thinking "I have this opinion and I know it's false". That wouldn't make any sense. Everybody thinks that the opinions they hold are true.


The question is WHO decides whether any given opinion is true or false. Is it humans, as Protagoras says, or is it something that is independent from humans e.g. objective reality? If you say the former, i.e. humans, then you're a dark-age idiot as per James's definition. (I believe James is a dark-age idiot too.)
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
-- Mr. Reasonable
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