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Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:04 pm
by dan25
As for myself, I'm here looking for a change of mind..
I have become quite depressed since loosing my faith in God, and I want (in vain?) somebody to convince me that there is a God, to convince me that when I die I don't just stop existing....
I want to believe in God, the after life; but like Spinoza pointed out, belief by its very nature can't be forced..

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:31 pm
by phyllo
dan25 wrote:As for myself, I'm here looking for a change of mind..
I have become quite depressed since loosing my faith in God, and I want (in vain?) somebody to convince me that there is a God, to convince me that when I die I don't just stop existing....
I want to believe in God, the after life; but like Spinoza pointed out, belief by its very nature can't be forced..
What if there is no God and all those who believe that there is, are simply mistaken?

Then wanting to be convinced that there is a God is a silly thing to want.

When dealing with things that cannot be changed, one ought to want "what is".

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:22 pm
by Urwrongx1000
Despite the specific reasons, and the individual differences, there is a definitive power that wisdom has over people.

Powerful answers to powerful questions, knowledge that can change lives. That is what people are seeking, why you are here.

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:48 pm
by Pandora
Peter wrote: “What is the point of philosophy?”

Why not instead of jumping to “better” human being first finding out who or what a human being is and what his role in the universe is. Somewhere along the line a man has decided that he can be whatever he wishes and be able to justify whatever things he wants to do. So, “better” becomes relative to one’s perception of who one is, which as we can see today, can be anything whatsoever.

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:16 pm
by Urwrongx1000
How often are those who spout rhetoric about "bettering humanity" or "being a better christian" genuine and honest with their convictions? Or, are they liars?

As-if philosophy must be to the benefit to all, rather than a few? If people forego hard work, gaining wisdom, then what right do others have to it?

That's like saying, "I'm entitled to the fruits of your labors ...because humanity."

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:41 pm
by WendyDarling
Doesn't it come down to...who are you producing philosophy for...yourself only or others? Communication and human connectivity, sharing, are strong motivators for letting the cat out of the bag, of course, put pride and ego on top of that and you have sunken ships from loose lips or typing finger tips. Billions of individual perceptions or misconceptions mess intentions up no matter how pure they were set upon so ideas are loaded weapons to be handled by those who care.

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:53 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
Urwrongx1000 wrote:How often are those who spout rhetoric about "bettering humanity" or "being a better christian" genuine and honest with their convictions? Or, are they liars?

As-if philosophy must be to the benefit to all, rather than a few? If people forego hard work, gaining wisdom, then what right do they have to it?

That's like saying, "I'm entitled to the fruits of your labors ...because humanity."



K: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights,
that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.......

if we hold these words to be true, and I do, then we must to the best of our
abilities, share what we can with those who need it.......even if they
don't met our "standards" of working hard or unable or unwilling to gain
wisdom.....in the pursuit of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness",
which is the minuim in regards to what one should expect out of life,
because being human is enough to justify our investment in both people
and the human race......is enough to give to people even if they don't met with
our approval.....I happily give my taxes to give to those who need it, even
if I don't approve of them......

this lies in the idea of society in which we are connected.....
there isn't you and me, there is us.....that idea of society is
the one we need to follow......it is about the betterment of society.....

and the fact is, like any system, the system is only as strong as the
weakest link.... and if we don't take care of those who need it, then
what does it say about us, as human beings......and the betterment
of society is about all of us, not just the strong among us.......

the strong can take care of themselves, it is those who can't take
care of themselves who we must do everything in our power to take care of......
why?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL men are created equal"

and being created equal, means we must treat everyone equal and promote
the values that equality suggest... for from equality comes justice....
to treat equal is to be just......Equality and justice are the same thing......
but I am sure you have a problem with justice also...

for the nature of man requires both equality and justice......

Kropotkin

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:58 pm
by Urwrongx1000
Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights,
that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.......

if we hold these words to be true, and I do, then we must to the best of our
abilities, share what we can with those who need it.......even if they
don't met our "standards" of working hard or unable or unwilling to gain
wisdom.....in the pursuit of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness",
which is the minuim in regards to what one should expect out of life,
because being human is enough to justify our investment in both people
and the human race......is enough to give to people even if they don't met with
our approval.....I happily give my taxes to give to those who need it, even
if I don't approve of them......

this lies in the idea of society in which we are connected.....
there isn't you and me, there is us.....that idea of society is
the one we need to follow......it is about the betterment of society.....

and the fact is, like any system, the system is only as strong as the
weakest link.... and if we don't take care of those who need it, then
what does it say about us, as human beings......and the betterment
of society is about all of us, not just the strong among us.......

the strong can take care of themselves, it is those who can't take
care of themselves who we must do everything in our power to take care of......
why?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL men are created equal"

and being created equal, means we must treat everyone equal and promote
the values that equality suggest... for from equality comes justice....
to treat equal is to be just......Equality and justice are the same thing......
but I am sure you have a problem with justice also...

for the nature of man requires both equality and justice......

Kropotkin

I'm unconvinced. How is taxation any different than theft? If a man hires me for a job then why are you and your cronies entitled to a % of it, and which %? 25%? 50%?

Would you raise the tax rate to 100% if given the opportunity? Complete slavery to the state?

Isn't taxation a deprivation of the rights of men and individuals? What "Right" do you have to another man's work or his business dealings?

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:59 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
Pandora wrote:Peter wrote: “What is the point of philosophy?”

Why not instead of jumping to “better” human being first finding out who or what a human being is and what his role in the universe is. Somewhere along the line a man has decided that he can be whatever he wishes and be able to justify whatever things he wants to do. So, “better” becomes relative to one’s perception of who one is, which as we can see today, can be anything whatsoever.


K: ummmm, I've spent an entire thread on defining man and discovering what a human being is....
see "a new understanding of today, time and space" thread and I've written
over 1350 posts on who a human being is and what is their role in the universe is.....

it is still a work in progress, I grant you but I have worked harder on this area then
anyone else around here.....

Kropotkin

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:08 pm
by Urwrongx1000
WendyDarling wrote:Doesn't it come down to...who are you producing philosophy for...yourself only or others? Communication and human connectivity, sharing, are strong motivators for letting the cat out of the bag, of course, put pride and ego on top of that and you have sunken ships from loose lips or typing finger tips. Billions of individual perceptions or misconceptions mess intentions up no matter how pure they were set upon so ideas are loaded weapons to be handled by those who care.

I only give away "free philosophy" when my head is full and I need to clear out some memory space.

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:09 pm
by Urwrongx1000
Kropotkin is here... for your taxes!

At least somebody answered the particular question.

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:25 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:K: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights,
that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.......

if we hold these words to be true, and I do, then we must to the best of our
abilities, share what we can with those who need it.......even if they
don't met our "standards" of working hard or unable or unwilling to gain
wisdom.....in the pursuit of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness",
which is the minuim in regards to what one should expect out of life,
because being human is enough to justify our investment in both people
and the human race......is enough to give to people even if they don't met with
our approval.....I happily give my taxes to give to those who need it, even
if I don't approve of them......

this lies in the idea of society in which we are connected.....
there isn't you and me, there is us.....that idea of society is
the one we need to follow......it is about the betterment of society.....

and the fact is, like any system, the system is only as strong as the
weakest link.... and if we don't take care of those who need it, then
what does it say about us, as human beings......and the betterment
of society is about all of us, not just the strong among us.......

the strong can take care of themselves, it is those who can't take
care of themselves who we must do everything in our power to take care of......
why?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL men are created equal"

and being created equal, means we must treat everyone equal and promote
the values that equality suggest... for from equality comes justice....
to treat equal is to be just......Equality and justice are the same thing......
but I am sure you have a problem with justice also...

for the nature of man requires both equality and justice......

Kropotkin

I'm unconvinced. How is taxation any different than theft? If a man hires me for a job then why are you and your cronies entitled to a % of it, and which %? 25%? 50%?

Would you raise the tax rate to 100% if given the opportunity? Complete slavery to the state?

Isn't taxation a deprivation of the rights of men and individuals? What "Right" do you have to another man's work or his business dealings?



K: I trust you know the person I purposely named myself after......
Prince Peter Kropotkin..... I was an anarchist for many years, and
I've read Kropotkin and Bakunin and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon.....
Proudhon was the one who coined the phrase "property is theft"
and it was as simple step to "taxes are theft"..........

I am still an anarchist at heart....and probably will be all my life......
with that said, I also understand that we don't have complete freedom....
you don't and I don't and no one does.... the freedom that we have in this
society is limited... and no one complains about that.... you cannot shout
fire in a crowed theater.....and we also accept that we have other limitations
in the state.... we must obey the law.... we must stop at stop signs.....
to drive a car we need a licence.....and there are punishments for not obeying
the law...we have a society.... and we are a civilization.... Just like ancient Rome
and Egypt and Greek......what did those civilizations have? a strong central
government.....in fact, to be considered to be a civilization, one must have
a strong central government.....and what makes up a civilization?
Roads and schools and hospitals and sewage plants and policeman
and garbage men.......each of these play their role in making up
a civilization......to those like you who ask for, no demand the benefits
of civilization without having to pay for it, I say shame......
and to pay for all that civilization?

how else would you pay for all the benefits you get from civilization?
if you don't like to pay for these benefits, I am sure you are most welcomed
to go to Somalia or some other African nation that is barely functional
and doesn't have the infrastructure of a civilization.....

I like my civilization and its infrastructure that allows me to live in
peace and prosperity.........and to get that all civilization and infrastructure
I gotta pay for it.. and I am ok with that....it is too bad you are selfish to
want the benefits of civilization without having to pay for it.......

Kropotkin

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:24 pm
by Pandora
Peter Kropotkin wrote:I've spent an entire thread on defining man and discovering what a human being is....
see "a new understanding of today, time and space" thread

I've written over 1350 posts on who a human being is and what is their role in the universe is.....

I have worked harder on this area then
anyone else around here.....


Good for you, Peter, good for you.

I think we have our own Peter-the-Great here!

Image

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:01 am
by Arminius
Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Arminius wrote:The 80% are the effect of the 20%. So, the 80% are here because of the 20%. 8)

Exactly, the 80% are consumers and they are here to seek out the 20%, the producers.

Production in Nature is rare. Consumption is the norm. It is rare to "move things forward" or to "progress" in life, Evolution. And progress requires conflict, competition, overcoming adversity, etc.

20% of those who have income pay 80% of the income tax; 20% of the employees of a company are responsible for 80% of the profit; 20% of the products of a supermarket represent 80% of the sales; 20% of the scientists get 80% of the quotations, 20% of the scientists write 80% of the scientific texts. And just: 80% of the links on the internet point to 20% of the webpages. So the 80%/20% distribution concerns the world wide web as well. 20% of all internet links attrac 80% of all internet links.

80% of all (currently 45800) ILP posts exist because of the fact that 20% of all ILP posts exist. 20% of all ILP posts deliver 80% of all really philosophical (which are a few) ILP posts. And if we assume that the number of the ILP main-posters (those ILP members who are mainly posting, regardless in which of the ILP subforums) is about 40, then 32 (80%) out of 40 (100%) main-posters post on ILP because of 8 (20%) out of 40 (100%) main-posters. This also means that this 8 ILP members are the only ones who really deserve to be called "philosophers". But perhaps the number of the ILP main-posters is not 40, but 20, so that merely 4 ILP members are the only ones who really deserve to be called "philosophers". 8)

I estimate that the average number of the really philosophical ILP posts per day is about 1.5. 8)

Before becoming astouned, you should note that this "1.5 ILP posts per day" also mean "more than 9000 ILP posts since the bginning of ILP in 2001".

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:40 pm
by Urwrongx1000
Right, most are here to consume and imbibe wisdom. The production of philosophy is rarer and requires distinct characteristics of individuals. Artistry is involved on many levels. But of course the core value is Reason. Without reasoning, advanced thought, then philosophy does not go far. And it is the reasoning faculty that, by popular decree, separates humanity from mere animals. Thus the ability to reason must not be underestimated.

Great philosophers are remarkable and easily recognized by such raw abilities. Philosophers have put the most amount of thought, reason, and examination into the most pivotal and important questions of life. Thus it seems that wisdom overflows from philosophers, and then consumed by the masses. Religion eventually stepped between the two and mediated the relationship between wisdom, wise men, and those of the general public. The religious agents of previous millenniums also became 'politicians'. Thus religious agents and politicians are very much the enforcers of wisdom. And the wisdom they use has been garnered and collected from sources across centuries.

Consumers place trust in philosophers and philosophy, without even realizing it. It won't make sense to many why and how they believe in god, or their world views, or hold core values, or have a distinct metaphysics. And the masses don't really need to make sense of it. Because there is the action of life (representing the Body), versus the contemplation of life (representing the Mind).

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:45 pm
by Urwrongx1000
A most fundamental lesson is obvious. If your thoughts betray you. If you are wrong and false. Then anything you do with your body, your actions throughout life, will be flawed as well. Any 'good' you accomplish would be pure accident, because it was never from what you originally intended (from false premises). This is how people invert their perspective and values, and end up justifying their means in reverse.

Some people, who give up on intelligence and thinking early in life, will then speak much about luck and fortune. That whether anybody does good, bad, or evil, is merely fate rather than what people intend.

Those with the highest intelligence, however, recognizing the causes and reasons underneath existence, will know better. It's not a matter of luck. It's a matter of understanding.

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:23 pm
by Peter Kropotkin
Arminius wrote:
Urwrongx1000 wrote:
Arminius wrote:The 80% are the effect of the 20%. So, the 80% are here because of the 20%. 8)

Exactly, the 80% are consumers and they are here to seek out the 20%, the producers.

Production in Nature is rare. Consumption is the norm. It is rare to "move things forward" or to "progress" in life, Evolution. And progress requires conflict, competition, overcoming adversity, etc.

20% of those who have income pay 80% of the income tax; 20% of the employees of a company are responsible for 80% of the profit; 20% of the products of a supermarket represent 80% of the sales; 20% of the scientists get 80% of the quotations, 20% of the scientists write 80% of the scientific texts. And just: 80% of the links on the internet point to 20% of the webpages. So the 80%/20% distribution concerns the world wide web as well. 20% of all internet links attrac 80% of all internet links.

80% of all ILP posts exist because of the fact that 20% of all ILP posts exist. 20% of all ILP posts deliver 80% of all really philosophical ILP posts. And if we assume that the number of the ILP perma-posters (those ILP members who are always posting) is about 40, then 32 (80%) out of 40 (100%)perma-posters post on ILP because of 8 (20%) out of 40 (100%) perma-posters. This also means that this 8 ILP members really deserve to be called "philosophers". But perhaps the number of the ILP perma-posters is not 40, but 20, so that merely 4 ILP members really deserve to be called "philosophers". :shock:


K: besides me, I wonder who the other three are? :-"

Kropotkin

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:39 am
by Kathrina
Peter Kropotkin wrote:
Arminius wrote:20% of those who have income pay 80% of the income tax; 20% of the employees of a company are responsible for 80% of the profit; 20% of the products of a supermarket represent 80% of the sales; 20% of the scientists get 80% of the quotations, 20% of the scientists write 80% of the scientific texts. And just: 80% of the links on the internet point to 20% of the webpages. So the 80%/20% distribution concerns the world wide web as well. 20% of all internet links attrac 80% of all internet links.

80% of all ILP posts exist because of the fact that 20% of all ILP posts exist. 20% of all ILP posts deliver 80% of all really philosophical ILP posts. And if we assume that the number of the ILP perma-posters (those ILP members who are always posting) is about 40, then 32 (80%) out of 40 (100%)perma-posters post on ILP because of 8 (20%) out of 40 (100%) perma-posters. This also means that this 8 ILP members really deserve to be called "philosophers". But perhaps the number of the ILP perma-posters is not 40, but 20, so that merely 4 ILP members really deserve to be called "philosophers". :shock:

K: besides me, I wonder who the other three are? :-"

Kropotkin

:lol:

Here are the other three:

OG.jpg
OG.jpg (26.64 KiB) Viewed 922 times

:-"

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:35 pm
by Arcturus Descending
Pandora wrote:I came here searching for truth, and so far it has been like chewing on nails and drinking acid. Wisdom i think is another thing entirely. I don’t think the two necessarily go hand in hand, maybe like a dichotomy between nature and society/nurture, or the question of what to do with the truth. Does wisdom not use lies even while knowing the truth? Should it? I’m inclined to say yes, and that’s why I don’t mess with it too much, because it deals with artistry. And who is not to say that truth is not to be protected from people, or vice versa? Have we not learned at least this one lesson in the history of philosophy? I mean, what is one lesson that we have learned through the history of philosophy. I’d say that the human mind itself is the corrupting factor in dealing with reality, and will mold it to fit its own nature, just as it does with nature (driven by own physical and psychological survival and well-being). So is not wisdom self-serving by default or could not wisdom be an art of manipulating the truth in order to serve particular ends? What is the use of wisdom without end or goal? What happened when people first used the expression of wisdom, or love of wisdom? Did it not morph into love of sophistry and rhetoric?


Pandora, you seem to be describing *cunning* here ~~ not wisdom.

Wisdom to me has more to do with the natural and right flow of a moral and ethical life and how to carry that out for the good of all.
Wisdom has the maturity and intelligence to carefully and deliberately *do no harm* but to do the *greatest good*.

The other is again cunning.

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:45 pm
by Arcturus Descending
surreptitious75 wrote:Knowledge comes before wisdom and so someone who is wise will
have knowledge but someone who has knowledge may not be wise


So what would you say, surreptitious, is the missing link or ingredient here - whereby a wise one will have knowledge but the knowledgeable one may not be wise?

What does wise Yoda have to give to the brilliant student?

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:30 pm
by Pandora
Arc wrote,

Wisdom to me has more to do with the natural and right flow of a moral and ethical life and how to carry that out for the good of all.

Wisdom has the maturity and intelligence to carefully and deliberately *do no harm* but to do the *greatest good*.
I don’t see the connection between “natural”, “ethical”, “good for all” and “do no harm”. The closest concept to that in nature would be balance, but that has nothing to do with any of the other concepts. For instance, in nature, balance may imply harm to many. The problem with man is that he always sees himself as an exception. He IS nature and all is made in harmony with his views, which he then calls wisdom.

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:56 pm
by Silhouette
I come here to spar, to try to get people to poke holes in my philosophy and to test how it will hold up to the kind of thinking or otherwise that others might apply to it. I try to doubt my thoughts as much as possible as I gather them together, but there will always be ways of which I do not think and I want my ways to be as infallible as possible.

Urwrongx1000, urwrongx1000. I think you speak for your self ^_^

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:04 pm
by James S Saint
Silhouette wrote:I come here to spar, to try to get people to poke holes in my philosophy and to test how it will hold up to the kind of thinking or otherwise that others might apply to it. I try to doubt my thoughts as much as possible as I gather them together, but there will always be ways of which I do not think and I want my ways to be as infallible as possible.

Yes, you do. I recognize it (as I just mentioned on another thread). 8)

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:22 pm
by Silhouette
James S Saint wrote: another thread

A good post.

Re: Why You Are Here

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:02 am
by Mr Reasonable
I'm just here to try and gentrify this place and to leave nuggets of my wisdom for you guys to consume. No need to thank me. Your consumption of said nuggets over the years is thanks enough.