Reality vs Perception

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Re: Reality vs Perception

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:30 pm

encode_decode wrote:
ezak42 wrote:reality encompasses existence; existence encompasses reality

Where does that leave perception?


In the driver's seat. :evilfun:

No Drinking while driving! Perception must be sober. *Real* perception can be quite *sobering*.
Stay alert at all times.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Reality vs Perception

Postby encode_decode » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:26 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:In the driver's seat. :evilfun:

No Drinking while driving! Perception must be sober. *Real* perception can be quite *sobering*.
Stay alert at all times.

Hmmm . . . yes it could be said that perception is in the drivers seat. The drivers seat is in reality however and exists.

Reality vs Perception

:lol:
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    Meno 1

    Postby encode_decode » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:28 am

      Perhaps some senseless babbling on my part but I still think worthy of slight consideration. Trying to edge toward a truth.

      Try not to blink, as something might be missed :lol:

      I have been giving this Einstein/Eddington thing some thought. Eddington suggests that mathematics(language of the universe) was not there until we put it there which is to say that despite the compatibility of mathematics to the universe, the universe obviously displays itself differently to the symbols that we use to express reality.

      Differently but compatible . . .

      The thing that I have left out is that we are referring to the great architect of the universe being a mathematician. It has been suggested a few times in the media that mathematics is a universal language but this is a misinterpretation of what a language actually is, which is that which is composed of symbols/tokens.

      < << <<< >>> >> >

      I too am sure that the universe has memory - leading to a universal intelligence - this however I believe is highly mathematical in that flow is involved so that the memory is based on a dynamic of flow which means that the memories are stored in a unique way that we are not accustomed to. When 1 + 1 becomes 2 the 1's are still remembered if that makes sense. This requires some intuition too for that matter.

      Meno_ wrote:The idea of universal intelligence hinges on apparently on what such intelligence may comprise of.

      Exactly, what it may comprise of and I think it is safe to say that we are not talking about neurons in the way that we are accustomed to id est the neurons of the human brain. Gravity and the other forces then become the medium for communication from my current view and energy and matter become the medium of stored memories, and I would think that because I am not taking into consideration what I am not aware of.

      I am not aware of whether the human brain is actually the center of human intelligence but I am aware that it is able to store memories and memories are important to intelligence. Without memories there can not be an intelligence but there is still a flow within our consciousness, an invisible flow, a temporal flow, not so much like a river flows but a flow none the less showing that time is fluid when it comes to the mind. Hint: perhaps even the universe can experience déjà vu.

      Back to the language thing - the thing to be aware of >> is that one must read between the lines so to speak >> when trying to interpret even that which I have written here >> to get any sense of what I am saying. I think too that we must read between the mathematical lines >> to make any sense of a universal language.

      In the end intelligence can be represented with language and it need not be mathematical language - it need be interpretation.

      Interpretation can be a hidden language and it is a hidden thing that I am trying to point to - I have much more to say in another post.
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        (Anomaly654)


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        Re: Reality vs Perception

        Postby encode_decode » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:28 pm

          I do believe that at some point Eddington was onto this hidden thing that I am referring to and he calls it convergence. When convergence takes place it is hidden away from perception for a time - I am speaking of convergence as coming together from different directions so as to eventually meet.

          Conceptual directions . . .

          Eddington said, unity and consistency are ideals to be reached by convergence and he regarded seeking(in religion and philosophy) as more important than finding. I would have to agree since there is more to be learnt along the way than what is to be learnt at the end - the end is only useful for reflection where a few missed concepts might be caught - I am not trying to exclude deep analytical thinking however, rather I am highlighting the importance of seeking.

          Eddington also says something similar to: the truth shines ahead as a beacon showing us the path.

          Despite some of Eddington's, what seems to be, confused thinking, it is safe to say that by presenting his ideas in a more clear format would permit us to filter out the more ambiguous thoughts he himself presented. I should start with his table-top paradox in that the everyday table-top is different to the scientific one, id est, the everyday table-top is seemingly solid and impenetrable and the scientific one is mostly composed of figuratively speaking, empty space - suggesting that there are two table-tops in this conceptual situation - components of two distinct worlds - neither world(or description) being the ultimate reality.

          Eddington views reality as ultimately spiritual and inscrutable.

          I will say for now that what reality and subconsciousness have in common is continuity . . .
          . . . whereas perception and consciousness appear not to be unbroken . . .

          :-k

          Conversely, I believe reality can be interpreted.
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            (James S Saint)


            It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
            (Anomaly654)


            Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
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            Re: Reality vs Perception

            Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:22 pm

            encode_decode wrote:
            Arcturus Descending wrote:In the driver's seat. :evilfun:

            No Drinking while driving! Perception must be sober. *Real* perception can be quite *sobering*.
            Stay alert at all times.

            Hmmm . . . yes it could be said that perception is in the drivers seat. The drivers seat is in reality however and exists.

            Reality vs Perception

            :lol:


            Hello there,

            What I was saying is that it IS our very own individual perception which builds our reality ~ a reality which may or may not be built on what is "real" and "true".
            That is why perception is in the driver's seat.

            The drivers seat is in reality however and exists.


            Yes, perception exists but insofar as reality existing by way of one's individual perception, that would depend on whether or not one is *seeing* things as they actually are.
            “How can a bird that is born for joy
            Sit in a cage and sing?”
            ― William Blake


            “Little Fly
            Thy summers play,
            My thoughtless hand
            Has brush'd away.

            Am not I
            A fly like thee?
            Or art not thou
            A man like me?

            For I dance
            And drink & sing:
            Till some blind hand
            Shall brush my wing.

            If thought is life
            And strength & breath:
            And the want
            Of thought is death;

            Then am I
            A happy fly,
            If I live,
            Or if I die”
            ― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


            “No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
            ― William Blake
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            Re: Reality vs Perception

            Postby encode_decode » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:05 am

              Arcturus Descending

              Interesting, I was not initially sure of how to answer you but I present a kind of answer for you here.

              Arcturus Descending wrote:What I was saying is that it IS our very own individual perception which builds our reality ~ a reality which may or may not be built on what is "real" and "true".
              That is why perception is in the driver's seat.

              Hmm, do you deny that at least some of actual reality makes it through and what we come to perceive is partially based on reality?

              I am saying that actual reality helps to build our individual reality . . .

              Arcturus Descending wrote:Yes, perception exists but insofar as reality existing by way of one's individual perception, that would depend on whether or not one is *seeing* things as they actually are.

              I would have to say that we are *seeing* at the very least partial representations of reality if not the whole of reality.

              I hope you see some logic here . . .
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                Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
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                It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                (Anomaly654)


                Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
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                Re: Reality vs Perception

                Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:11 pm

                encode_decode wrote:
                  Can we say that perception is a part of reality?

                  We are a part of reality and we perceive so perception is a part of reality.

                  I have frequently heard it contended that the truth isn't so easily defined, that every individual has his own particular view of reality. The suggestion is that in light of the fact that each of us sees the world through our own particular eyes, reality itself is distinct to each one of us.

                  The suggestion is that in light of the fact that each of us sees the world through our own particular eyes, reality itself changes from individual to individual.

                  While it's a fact that everybody sees reality in an unexpected way, reality does not care about our observations. Reality does not change to adjust to our perspectives; the truth is what it is. The truth is reality. The truth will be truth.

                  Reality, be that as it may, isn't generally a known, which is the place that an impression of reality comes in. While the truth is a settled factor in the condition of life, each view of the truth is a variable.

                  There is no competition between reality and perception, only between each individuals perception.

                  Each of us is a part of reality and so is our perception.


                  In so much that a view of reality is not really what we refer to as reality. Reality is what is viewed, what we interpret it as is perception. All the percepts of reality are in reality, of course. Where else could they be?
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                  Re: Reality vs Perception

                  Postby encode_decode » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:05 pm

                  WW_III_ANGRY wrote:In so much that a view of reality is not really what we refer to as reality. Reality is what is viewed, what we interpret it as is perception. All the percepts of reality are in reality, of course. Where else could they be?

                  If a percept is an object of perception then reality could be said to be in perception by way of interpretation but I am with you on this especially if reality is perceived falsely. Also percepts being the consequence of perception and perception being a near consequence of reality says that percepts are a near consequence of reality.
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                    Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
                    (James S Saint)


                    It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                    (Anomaly654)


                    Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                    (Myself)
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                    Re: Reality vs Perception

                    Postby Serendipper » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:18 am

                    encode_decode wrote:
                      pilgrim-seeker_tom

                      I am not too sure whether I am following what you are saying as well as you would like me to . . .

                      pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Philosophy divorced from human life ... ergo ... divorced from personal experience is simply ... "blah ... blah ... blah".

                      Arrogance creates mental blocks and myopia ... the truth of this statement is abundantly self evident in this forum. :-)

                      You have expressed this sentiment more than once. I respect your right to think like this, but remember, it is still opinion.

                      “Nothing ever becomes real till experienced – even a proverb is no proverb until your life has illustrated it” - John Keats

                      9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
                      10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
                      11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
                      12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
                      13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

                      Simon & Garfunkel Lyrics
                      "The Sound Of Silence"

                      Hello darkness, my old friend
                      I've come to talk with you again
                      Because a vision softly creeping
                      Left its seeds while I was sleeping
                      And the vision that was planted in my brain
                      Still remains
                      Within the sound of silence

                      In restless dreams I walked alone
                      Narrow streets of cobblestone
                      ‘Neath the halo of a streetlamp
                      I turned my collar to the cold and damp
                      When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
                      That split the night
                      And touched the sound of silence

                      And in the naked light I saw
                      Ten thousand people, maybe more
                      People talking without speaking
                      People hearing without listening
                      People writing songs that voices never share
                      No one dare
                      Disturb the sound of silence


                      “Fools” said I, “You do not know
                      Silence like a cancer grows
                      Hear my words that I might teach you
                      Take my arms that I might reach you”
                      But my words like silent raindrops fell
                      And echoed in the wells of silence


                      And the people bowed and prayed
                      To the neon god they made
                      And the sign flashed out its warning
                      In the words that it was forming
                      And the sign said “The words of the prophets
                      Are written on the subway walls
                      And tenement halls
                      And whispered in the sounds of silence”

                      https://genius.com/Simon-and-garfunkel- ... nce-lyrics

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fWyzwo1xg0

                      If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand ;)
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                      Reality vs Perception

                      Postby encode_decode » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:04 am

                        :D
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                        Re: Reality vs Perception

                        Postby Serendipper » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:12 am

                        encode_decode wrote:
                          :D


                          You like that? I can continue :-"

                          When I was young,
                          It seemed that life was so wonderful,
                          A miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.
                          And all the birds in the trees,
                          Well they'd be singing so happily,
                          Oh joyfully, oh playfully watching me.

                          But then they sent me away
                          To teach me how to be sensible,
                          Logical, oh responsible, practical.
                          And then they showed me a world
                          Where I could be so dependable,
                          Oh clinical, oh intellectual, cynical.

                          There are times
                          When all the world's asleep,
                          The questions run too deep
                          For such a simple man.

                          Won't you please,
                          Please tell me what we've learned
                          I know it sounds absurd
                          Please tell me who I am.


                          https://genius.com/Supertramp-the-logical-song-lyrics

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQfjIw3mivc

                          Well I came upon a child of God,
                          he was walking along the road
                          And I asked him tell me where are you going,
                          this he told me:

                          Said, I'm going down to Yasgur's farm,
                          going to join in a rock and roll band.
                          Got to get back to the land,
                          and set my soul free.

                          We are stardust, we are golden,
                          we are billion year old carbon,

                          And we got to get ourselves
                          back to the garden.


                          https://genius.com/Crosby-stills-nash-a ... ock-lyrics

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKdsRWhyH30

                          I close my eyes, only for a moment
                          And the moment's gone
                          All my dreams pass before my eyes, a curiosity
                          Dust in the wind
                          All they are is dust in the wind

                          Same old song, just a drop of water
                          In an endless sea
                          All we do crumbles to the ground
                          Though we refuse to see
                          Dust in the wind
                          All we are is dust in the wind


                          https://genius.com/Kansas-dust-in-the-wind-lyrics

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH2w6Oxx0kQ

                          I heard I lost it on the grapevine
                          I must admit I had a great time
                          There are words for people like me
                          But I don't think there's very many

                          I've gained the world and lost my soul
                          Maybe it's 'cause I'm getting old
                          All the people that I know
                          Have gained the world and lost their soul

                          There's no persuasion that I'm into
                          I've made some sense of what we've been through
                          We should form a new foundation
                          If we could find the right location


                          https://genius.com/Morcheeba-gained-the-world-lyrics

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyKXaqc7Czo

                          In struggling to answer all my questions I realized that having questions was the point:

                          "You know the nearer your destination, the more you slip sliding away"


                          Whoah God only knows, God makes his plan
                          The information's unavailable to the mortal man
                          We're workin' our jobs, collect our pay
                          Believe we're gliding down the highway, when in fact we're slip sliding away


                          https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/simonga ... naway.html

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUODdPpnxcA
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                          Re: Reality vs Perception

                          Postby Icerion » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:37 am

                          encode_decode wrote:
                            :D


                            @encode_decode :

                            CODE RED! Please contact me immediately! We have a problem!
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                            Re: Reality vs Perception

                            Postby encode_decode » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:35 pm

                            These kinds of posts could be taken more than one way and are not that specific in what they are trying to deliver. I personally get left with the feeling that I am being accused of having no experience at 42 years of age and therefore accused of saying things that are not real. But who exactly is doing the accusing? Somebody with experience of what I am talking about? I fear not. It is not like I am discussing anything necessarily new here - similar topics have been discussed for millennia.

                            So what is it that pilgrim-seeker_tom was trying to say to me? That all I was doing was "blah ... blah ... blah"? Fine, I no longer care what he thinks. He does not have to read anything that I have put together. I would suggest that of anybody. We all have the choice whether to read certain material or not.

                            To put it simply and somewhat figuratively: There is no sense in blaming me for something you would decide to do. I don't blame others for what I decide on.

                            The things I post are the things I talk about and some people happen to find them interesting.

                            Peace

                            :D
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                              Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
                              (James S Saint)


                              It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                              (Anomaly654)


                              Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                              (Myself)
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                              Re: Reality vs Perception

                              Postby Meno_ » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:38 pm

                              encode_decode wrote:
                              WW_III_ANGRY wrote:In so much that a view of reality is not really what we refer to as reality. Reality is what is viewed, what we interpret it as is perception. All the percepts of reality are in reality, of course. Where else could they be?

                              If a percept is an object of perception then reality could be said to be in perception by way of interpretation but I am with you on this especially if reality is perceived falsely. Also percepts being the consequence of perception and perception being a near consequence of reality says that percepts are a near consequence of reality.



                              To put it into philosophical jargon, the idea of a sense data(precept) reduces perception and it's objects ultimately. Infinitely, with the object falling below the threshold of perception.

                              Objection to Russell's idea .
                              How would it coincide with Nietzche's idea of the nihilized something of the abyss?
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                              Re: Reality vs Perception

                              Postby MagsJ » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:55 pm

                              Recently approved post.
                              Icerion wrote:
                              encode_decode wrote:
                                :D


                                @encode_decode :

                                CODE RED! Please contact me immediately! We have a problem!
                                Image
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                                Re: Reality vs Perception

                                Postby encode_decode » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:58 pm

                                Meno_ wrote:How would it coincide with Nietzche's idea of the nihilized something of the abyss?

                                I will get back to you soon with my interpretation of what you are asking.

                                For now: I can not be certain that I understand what you mean - that is fine though - I can attempt some interpretation and hope to not fall too far from the mark.

                                There is meaning coming at me from your post. I have not read Nietzsche.
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                                  Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
                                  (James S Saint)


                                  It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                  (Anomaly654)


                                  Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                  (Myself)
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                                  Re: Reality vs Perception

                                  Postby Meno_ » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:44 am

                                  encode_decode wrote:
                                  Meno_ wrote:How would it coincide with Nietzche's idea of the nihilized something of the abyss?

                                  I will get back to you soon with my interpretation of what you are asking.

                                  For now: I can not be certain that I understand what you mean - that is fine though - I can attempt some interpretation and hope to not fall too far from the mark.

                                  There is meaning coming at me from your post. I have not read Nietzsche.



                                  Thanks for that and I will attempt a general idea of what comes up in connection to that.
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                                  Re: Reality vs Perception

                                  Postby encode_decode » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:51 am

                                  Hopefully I am not conflating concepts in a corrupt way. I am still new to this concept of sense data. I am aware of my misuse here.

                                  Just a stray thought: We have failed to take into account the processes that happen below the conscious states - namely those that go on in the brain. Many neural networks are activated in relation to any given sense datum and some do not appear to bring into perception any given thing - we perceive the main event each time but many smaller events have taken place further strengthening future sense datum ready for activation - reminding us of some thing at a time.

                                  I propose more than one sense datum at a time - those that fall into conscious and those which do not. I further propose that there is nothing meaningless going on in the brain - that we are misunderstanding what meaning is and therefore discounting meaning happening that is not perceived.

                                  The brain is its own universe. We are the actor.

                                  My studies show that a thought need not be in the conscious. A thought comes with its own machinery.
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                                    Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
                                    (James S Saint)


                                    It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                    (Anomaly654)


                                    Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
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                                    Re: Reality vs Perception

                                    Postby encode_decode » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:34 am

                                    To put it into philosophical jargon, the idea of a sense data(precept) reduces perception and it's objects ultimately. Infinitely, with the object falling below the threshold of perception.

                                    Objection to Russell's idea .
                                    How would it coincide with Nietzche's idea of the nihilized something of the abyss?

                                    I must admit, I am curious as to what brought this question about. The idea and the objection point at something familiar involving entropy.
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                                      Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
                                      (James S Saint)


                                      It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                      (Anomaly654)


                                      Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
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                                      Re: Reality vs Perception

                                      Postby Serendipper » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:49 pm

                                      encode_decode wrote:These kinds of posts could be taken more than one way and are not that specific in what they are trying to deliver. I personally get left with the feeling that I am being accused of having no experience at 42 years of age and therefore accused of saying things that are not real. But who exactly is doing the accusing? Somebody with experience of what I am talking about? I fear not. It is not like I am discussing anything necessarily new here - similar topics have been discussed for millennia.

                                      I don't think pilgrim seeker was referring to you, but the board in general:

                                      pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Philosophy divorced from human life ... ergo ... divorced from personal experience is simply ... "blah ... blah ... blah".

                                      Arrogance creates mental blocks and myopia ... the truth of this statement is abundantly self evident in this forum. :-)

                                      You are the least arrogant and mentally blocked on here, which is why we are friends.

                                      So what is it that pilgrim-seeker_tom was trying to say to me? That all I was doing was "blah ... blah ... blah"?

                                      No, he's saying that any assessment of reality without experience is blah blah meaningless garbage. He's saying object + subject constitute reality.

                                      “Nothing ever becomes real till experienced – even a proverb is no proverb until your life has illustrated it” - John Keats

                                      Pilgrim seeker is someone whom I've disengaged with because I'm not sure how to take him either. It began ok, but then he seemed to snap at me. It could be an innocent artifact of how he talks, which could be why he peppers his posts with emoticons. Idk..

                                      But yeah, there is a lot of arrogance on display here. People just want to be right and aren't so much concerned with truth. That's part of the meaning of the Sounds of Silence.

                                      And the people bowed and prayed
                                      To the neon god they made
                                      And the sign flashed out its warning
                                      In the words that it was forming
                                      And the sign said “The words of the prophets
                                      Are written on the subway walls
                                      And tenement halls
                                      And whispered in the sounds of silence”

                                      Truth falls on deaf ears because people have no regard for the bland, but prefer the egoic neon.

                                      Or we could say that Galileo wanted to reveal truth that the church wished to hide for its own perverted reasons, so not to disturb the sound of silence.

                                      Taken from the Genius site https://genius.com/1938673

                                      The story of it is that the author has a dream about ten thousand people bowing to a god they made of neon light. The god represents the fake and shallow culture they are building on pop stars and the dollar bill. The author feels as if he is the only one who is not content with living in the fake, trivial culture that was stated.


                                      Simon seeks to convey a message of how ignorance taints the minds of so many people.
                                      Silence refers to submission. He reveals how people so foolishly follow rulers without actually knowing a ruler’s true intentions and background.
                                      People hearing without listening reveals a people’s willingness to take heed to the commands spoken by a leader without fully realizing the consequences of this obedience.

                                      Alternately, this could be a continuation of the song’s theme about people’s isolation and failure to communicate with or understand each other. The play on words compares talking (making sounds with your mouth) to speaking (saying something meaningful or true); it makes a similar distinction for hearing (sound entering the ear) compared to listening (trying to understand).


                                      “Writing on the wall” is a biblical reference that refers to a prophesy of doom. Daniel 5:5 tells the story of an arrogant king of the Babylonians who worshiped gods of gold and silver. Suddenly a hand appeared and wrote a mysterious message on the wall of the palace. Daniel was summoned to interpret the message; he explained that God was angry with the king for his blasphemy and would end his reign. The king was slain that very night and his kingdom divided.

                                      Tenement houses are the apartment buildings in the slums, usually squalid and overcrowded. Instead of being written on a palace wall where the richest will see it, the only people who see the approaching doom are the poor. The lyrics suggest that the prophets who write or are able to interpret the warning are themselves poor, possibly because they refuse to worship the gods of neon and gold.

                                      This is a bit more deductive. There is a train of thought that a prophet is not recognized in his own house, which is another issue on itself, but this lyric implies that the true prophets are living in Subways and Tenements.

                                      There is also a hint of the read the writing on the wall saying which is generally a call to face reality, which either way you view the lyric the neon god defers truth and possibly power to the words on the walls and halls. Graffiti-esque literature is what you indeed find on those specific walls and halls.

                                      Ironically or not those without a voice in society are the ones who use this dissemination of information for self expression, i.e. crack is wack murals.

                                      This means look to the people with no voice (or silenced) to hear the truth/prophecy. As we recall the dreamer or Simon was him/herself one of those people without a voice silenced by the crowd.

                                      The ending is an enigma. The words tell us that when meaningful communication fails, the only sound is silence.
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                                      Re: Reality vs Perception

                                      Postby Serendipper » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:09 pm

                                      Meno_ wrote:
                                      encode_decode wrote:
                                      WW_III_ANGRY wrote:In so much that a view of reality is not really what we refer to as reality. Reality is what is viewed, what we interpret it as is perception. All the percepts of reality are in reality, of course. Where else could they be?

                                      If a percept is an object of perception then reality could be said to be in perception by way of interpretation but I am with you on this especially if reality is perceived falsely. Also percepts being the consequence of perception and perception being a near consequence of reality says that percepts are a near consequence of reality.



                                      To put it into philosophical jargon, the idea of a sense data(precept) reduces perception and it's objects ultimately. Infinitely, with the object falling below the threshold of perception.

                                      If it falls below the threshold of perception, can it be an object? Note that perception doesn't necessarily necessitate consciousness or awareness of perception.

                                      Objection to Russell's idea .
                                      How would it coincide with Nietzche's idea of the nihilized something of the abyss?

                                      What can't be perceived, can't be real, so it seems consistent.
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                                      Re: Reality vs Perception

                                      Postby Serendipper » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:16 pm

                                      encode_decode wrote:Hopefully I am not conflating concepts in a corrupt way. I am still new to this concept of sense data. I am aware of my misuse here.

                                      Just a stray thought: We have failed to take into account the processes that happen below the conscious states - namely those that go on in the brain. Many neural networks are activated in relation to any given sense datum and some do not appear to bring into perception any given thing - we perceive the main event each time but many smaller events have taken place further strengthening future sense datum ready for activation - reminding us of some thing at a time.

                                      I propose more than one sense datum at a time - those that fall into conscious and those which do not. I further propose that there is nothing meaningless going on in the brain - that we are misunderstanding what meaning is and therefore discounting meaning happening that is not perceived.

                                      The brain is its own universe. We are the actor.

                                      My studies show that a thought need not be in the conscious. A thought comes with its own machinery.

                                      Good stuff!

                                      What is a brain?

                                      In biology, the unitary approach makes it explicit why no organism can be thought of without an environment. An organism as a skin bag is no functioning system; it may be such only together with the relevant environmental parts. The same applies to neurophysiology or “cognitive” brain research: without the rest of the world the nervous system is not a system at all; neither is the agent of the behavior a part of the body, such as the brain.

                                      https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Psychology
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                                      Re: Reality vs Perception

                                      Postby encode_decode » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:25 pm

                                      Serendipper wrote:What is a brain?

                                      In biology, the unitary approach makes it explicit why no organism can be thought of without an environment. An organism as a skin bag is no functioning system; it may be such only together with the relevant environmental parts. The same applies to neurophysiology or “cognitive” brain research: without the rest of the world the nervous system is not a system at all; neither is the agent of the behavior a part of the body, such as the brain.

                                      I really like that. Your above interpretations are very likely more accurate than mine - I do not fully trust my assumptions ever. As for the above interpretations, regarding tom and the like as well as the sense data and Nietzsche I will get back to you on that - I am still reading up on nihilism as it pertains to Nietzsche as well as a little extra. Regarding what I have quoted in this post, well, I never considered the rest of the world.

                                      Thanks. Cya soon.

                                      :D
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                                        Re: Reality vs Perception

                                        Postby Meno_ » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:05 pm

                                        Lately, after all, I tried to write an answer to a previous comment but found I could not because of the limited three subquotes.

                                        So generally, Sartre is still holding the infinite reduction at bay, through reducing to the point where things makes sense via a bracketing. He is still holding to Descartes' notion of thinking being (thinking of Being) , rather then the Nothingness of an infinite existentially reduced precept. As it turns out, such would prove contrary phenomenologically and here he could/would say Non cogiti non sum, or where I can not think, I do not exist,

                                        One cannot think in nihilism, the child's fear of the abyss, the dark is where he can not see himself" and thus know himself as an existent. Here he doesnt exist.

                                        Nihilism is an all consuming idea of a death, which may turn out to be a perceptual illusion.

                                        I agree with the above of the existence of the correlation as consisting of sufficient logical necessity, but at a certain level below the reduction of the phenomenon, it looses its structural basis.

                                        I will try to make this comment more sufficiently substantial, as I review the comments above in which the relevance were confirmed by both of you.

                                        Russell's precept or sense data held the way Descartes' and did. Nietzsche showed that prophetically, ironically after the fact.
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                                        Re: Reality vs Perception

                                        Postby encode_decode » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:35 pm

                                        I have also been thinking about tacit knowledge. I agree with Polanyi that all knowledge is rooted in tacit knowledge. I can make an extension here and say that memories are never stored exactly as the experience that prompts them. No memories are fully codified.

                                        There is also a mathematical principle covering information entropy that tells me that the human brain expresses more entropy when storing and recalling memories.

                                        I have an AI model that is flexible enough to not be overcome by the entropy.

                                        I was going to add something else but it seems to have slipped my mind.
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                                          Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
                                          (James S Saint)


                                          It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                          (Anomaly654)


                                          Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
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