What, if anything, are wrong with these syllogisms?

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What, if anything, are wrong with these syllogisms?

Postby LogicalMetaphysician » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:56 am

What, if anything is wrong with these syllogisms?

Definition of existence:
the state or fact of having being especially independently of human consciousness and as contrasted with nonexistence

Definition of being:
something that is conceivable and hence capable of existing

Definition of nonexistence:
absence of existence : the negation of being

Claim: Everything exists
Proposition: The absence of existence is itself absent of existence
Proposition: nonexistence does not exist (A=A, Tautology)
Proposition: nonexistence is nonexistant (A=A, Tautology)
Proposition: If nonextence is nonexistant, then everything exists.
Conclusion: Everything Exists

Claim: Unicorns Exist
Proposition: If everything exists, then unicorns exist.
Proposition: Everything exists.
Conclusion: Unicorns exist

Bonus: Also, I posted about this in another forum (a political one), and someone there was trying to argue that the first one was not a syllogism because it had more than two propositions. Merriam-Webster and Wikipedia seem to disagree with whether or not a syllogism can have more than two propositions with wikipedia saying that it can and Merriam-Webster thinking that it can't. I thought Wikipedia was the better source, but the person disagreed. Can a syllogism have more than two propositions?
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Re: What, if anything, are wrong with these syllogisms?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:58 am

This sounds like fun ... 8)
LogicalMetaphysician wrote:What, if anything is wrong with these syllogisms?

Usually the symbology, other than that, no problemo.

LogicalMetaphysician wrote:Definition of existence:
the state or fact of having being especially independently of human consciousness and as contrasted with nonexistence

Well, there are still issues with proper definitions. A proper definition doesn't merely substitute one word for another unless the other is much better understood. In your proposed definition, you have merely substituted "being" for "existence". How does that help anyone? A definition should provide description and clarity, else what good is it. And a proper definition, to avoid ambiguity should clearly imply what a word does not mean as well as what it means.

LogicalMetaphysician wrote:Definition of being:
something that is conceivable and hence capable of existing

Good that you continued the clarification, but... is what you just said true? Is anything that I can conceive of equal to, or even a part of, existence? Have you ever known there to be a 15 legged dog? Perhaps a refrigerator with a built in ping-pong table and hottube? A unicorn? Fairies in the forest (not counting New York city)? The fact that my grandmother was a space alien?

All magical things are conceivable. Does that make them real or existent? If so, what is the point in having such a word? What would be the difference between a true story and a fictional story?

LogicalMetaphysician wrote:Claim: Everything exists
Proposition: The absence of existence is itself absent of existence
Proposition: nonexistence does not exist (A=A, Tautology)
Proposition: nonexistence is nonexistant (A=A, Tautology)
Proposition: If nonextence is nonexistant, then everything exists.
Conclusion: Everything Exists

Emmm... you didn't define "everything" and the rest is mere tautology, thus a bit pointless.

LogicalMetaphysician wrote:Claim: Unicorns Exist
Proposition: If everything exists, then unicorns exist.
Proposition: Everything exists.
Conclusion: Unicorns exist

If a unicorn is a thing, is it a real thing or a fictional thing?
What would be a nonexistent thing?

LogicalMetaphysician wrote:Bonus: Also, I posted about this in another forum (a political one), and someone there was trying to argue that the first one was not a syllogism because it had more than two propositions. Merriam-Webster and Wikipedia seem to disagree with whether or not a syllogism can have more than two propositions with wikipedia saying that it can and Merriam-Webster thinking that it can't. I thought Wikipedia was the better source, but the person disagreed. Can a syllogism have more than two propositions?

Depends on how you define it.
.. snicker .. :mrgreen:

And I would take Merriam over Wiki any day. But the issue is one of making certain that you are properly understood. So when in doubt, specify.


In effect, you still haven't defined "existence".

{Like the pseudonym, btw 8) }
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: What, if anything, are wrong with these syllogisms?

Postby Zero_Sum » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:15 pm

LogicalMetaphysician wrote:What, if anything is wrong with these syllogisms?

Definition of existence:
the state or fact of having being especially independently of human consciousness and as contrasted with nonexistence

Definition of being:
something that is conceivable and hence capable of existing

Definition of nonexistence:
absence of existence : the negation of being

Claim: Everything exists
Proposition: The absence of existence is itself absent of existence
Proposition: nonexistence does not exist (A=A, Tautology)
Proposition: nonexistence is nonexistant (A=A, Tautology)
Proposition: If nonextence is nonexistant, then everything exists.
Conclusion: Everything Exists

Claim: Unicorns Exist
Proposition: If everything exists, then unicorns exist.
Proposition: Everything exists.
Conclusion: Unicorns exist

Bonus: Also, I posted about this in another forum (a political one), and someone there was trying to argue that the first one was not a syllogism because it had more than two propositions. Merriam-Webster and Wikipedia seem to disagree with whether or not a syllogism can have more than two propositions with wikipedia saying that it can and Merriam-Webster thinking that it can't. I thought Wikipedia was the better source, but the person disagreed. Can a syllogism have more than two propositions?


This reminds me of a conversation I had with somebody years ago and the discussion centered around what is real versus unreal or what is natural versus unnatural. Needless to say it seems in philosophy the consensus is that all things are real and natural where nothing is unreal or unnatural. This sort of thinking has always come across as pro status quo because if everything is real and natural nothing can be criticized, rejected, or questioned.
The condition of man... is a condition of war of everyone against everyone.

I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death.

-Thomas Hobbes-
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Re: What, if anything, are wrong with these syllogisms?

Postby LogicalMetaphysician » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:20 pm

I was not trying to make a claim about real or not in the syllogism. Unicorns and fairies exist in our imaginations along with that 12 legged dog or whatever. There is no such thing as a nonexistent thing. I don't support the status quo at all. I am a staunch libertarian and something nearing an anarchist. I like to call my proposition for governance "microarchy." I don't know how to define existence without using the word being nor how to define being without the word existence. Evidently, neither does Merriam-Webster. Glad James at least agrees that those are tautologies. That was in dispute in other forums where I posted this. I was mostly just using it as a logic puzzle to test reasoning skills. I do believe that everything exists, but that is just to say that existence exists which is one of the primary axioms.

There is no such thing as a non-thing, other than nonexistence itself. Someone in another forum complained that I was using non things to prove the existence of things. Perhaps a valid point?
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Re: What, if anything, are wrong with these syllogisms?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:55 pm

LogicalMetaphysician wrote:I don't know how to define existence without using the word being nor how to define being without the word existence. Evidently, neither does Merriam-Webster.

Yes. The world of philosophy seems to have had that problem for millennia.
I would recommend that "existence" is well defined as "that which has affect". That which has no affect whatsoever does not exist. And "to affect" means to cause or be responsible for change.

LogicalMetaphysician wrote:There is no such thing as a non-thing, other than nonexistence itself. Someone in another forum complained that I was using non things to prove the existence of things. Perhaps a valid point?

I would also suggest that a "physical unicorn" is a "thing" that does not exist. Granted one can imagine a unicorn and thus has an image within the mind. That image exists, but not the physical entity.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25785
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: What, if anything, are wrong with these syllogisms?

Postby Arminius » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm

We have to consider two realms: (1) the real realm, (2) the ideal or spiritual realm.

This means that the existence is either necessary (=> 1) or possible (=> 2).

So, we have to consider necessity (=> 1) and possibility (=> 2).

"Wenn die Bedingungen der Möglichkeit in ihrer Totalität da sind, dann bilden sie zugleich Notwendigkeit." - Nicolai Hartmann.
My translation:
"If the conditions of the possibility are there in their totality, then they form at the same time necessity."
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