Individuation

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Individuation

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:16 am

A few months ago Xunjian posted an example of the notion of individuation ... a young adult leaving the family home ... a necessary first step.

The North American indigenous people who subscribed to the ritual of "Vision Quest" for young boys seems to point in the same direction.

Are the terms "ultimate individuation" and "achieving self discovery" pointing in the same direction?

Spoon feeding is for infants ... adults learn to feed themselves.

A rude statement ... or ... a kind and generous statement. I think the latter and here's my reasons.

Any attempt to attract other individuals to one's personal body of thought threatens the likelihood of achieving "ultimate individuation". Should an individual be blessed enough to achieve ultimate individuation attempting to attract followers ... or even accepting followers ... would destroy the individual's feat. The story of Jesus points to this theory ... the seeds of destruction of his message were planted the moment he chose his 12 followers.

Phyllo will ask ... yet again ... than what are you doing in this forum?

The short answer is ... I don't know ... with any degree of certainty.

Nonetheless ... Phyllo's question has merit.

Perhaps I feel at some level of my being that sharing my experience(s) may somehow aid others who are on the same road ... ergo ... the journey of self discovery.
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Re: Individuation

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:27 am

More thoughts ...

Humans need help along the "individuation" journey.

Examples:

1) Children need help from their parents or other adults ... if for no other reason than simply survival to adulthood.

2) In the early stages of individuation as adults ... reading appropriate books, listening to appropriate people for advice, direction, attaching oneself to attractive ideologies, religion(s), talismans, schools of philosophy ... all are helpful.

Yet

In the final stage of ultimate individuation all of the above are no longer helpful ... in fact they are harmful ... they vex the soul. One must be willing to enter the "dark night" ... learn without words, images etc.

Perhaps some ... maybe all members of ILP ... are approaching the final stage ... some have been on this threshold for a long time.

I doubt that any ILP members will enter this "dark night" voluntarily. Empirical evidence points to such a hypothesis. OTH some may be pushed into it ... again supported by empirical evidence.

There is only one way to cross the threshold:

1) Be open/receptive to it.

2) Embrace Wu Wei ... rather than trying to make something happen, sit in the back seat and observe stuff happening without motivation stress or effort.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Individuation

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:22 am

Just a basic contradiction here ....

Be an "adult" (not spoon fed) but just sit back and let it happen (the definition of spoon fed)

Here's the deal ...

There are two gardeners:

One is toiling, having trouble focusing, wants to be doing something else, .... when they're done. They feel drained

The other loves gardening so much that it not only doesn't feel like work, it invigorates them!

Let me explain what I'm gardening, and going through torment to do...

Make everyone the happy gardener for each other.

In order to garden, you need soil, plants, moisture and a world, you need limits!!

The passion I have is to bring everyone to the happy gardener of what they are - to do this, there are limits.
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Re: Individuation

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:27 am

A thoughtful post Ecmandu ... and some of your other posts confirm your words ... thanks

Contradictions are OK ... in fact their helpful ... maintaining the tension ... inside ... is productive.

Let me try a few different words ... "Let it Happen" ... vs ... "Make it Happen"

The latter is very much a significant component of the Western Psyche ... the former is more self evident in the Eastern Psyche.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Individuation

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:37 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:A thoughtful post Ecmandu ... and some of your other posts confirm your words ... thanks

Contradictions are OK ... in fact their helpful ... maintaining the tension ... inside ... is productive.

Let me try a few different words ... "Let it Happen" ... vs ... "Make it Happen"

The latter is very much a significant component of the Western Psyche ... the former is more self evident in the Eastern Psyche.


Well... obviously if you make something happen, you let it happen. If you let something happen, you simply made your acceptance. There are a great many things to not accept, so I suggest not being spoon fed in this way.
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Re: Individuation

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:17 am

Well... obviously if you make something happen, you let it happen. If you let something happen, you simply made your acceptance. There are a great many things to not accept, so I suggest not being spoon fed in this way.


Reads like an invitation to a pissing contest over meaning attributed to words.

No thanks
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Re: Individuation

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:10 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Well... obviously if you make something happen, you let it happen. If you let something happen, you simply made your acceptance. There are a great many things to not accept, so I suggest not being spoon fed in this way.


Reads like an invitation to a pissing contest over meaning attributed to words.

No thanks


I'm not trying that to my knowledge, I'm conveying a meaning as I understand it with words, you do understand what I mean. You certainly don't have to internalize it
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Re: Individuation

Postby phyllo » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:33 pm

I doubt that any ILP members will enter this "dark night" voluntarily. Empirical evidence points to such a hypothesis. OTH some may be pushed into it ... again supported by empirical evidence.
What empirical evidence?
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
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"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Individuation

Postby Meno_ » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:55 pm

Me know for instance, some people who have been or are in this dark place know, and are not afraid to say it that they are the evidence into themselves.
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Re: Individuation

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:54 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Well... obviously if you make something happen, you let it happen. If you let something happen, you simply made your acceptance. There are a great many things to not accept, so I suggest not being spoon fed in this way.


Reads like an invitation to a pissing contest over meaning attributed to words.

No thanks


I'm not trying that to my knowledge, I'm conveying a meaning as I understand it with words, you do understand what I mean. You certainly don't have to internalize it


Ecmandu ... I don't mind trying to help people but I don't respond well to being treated as a door mat.

I've witnessed how you express your frustration with personal failure(s) in other OPs ... not a pretty sight.

On a positive note ... the fact that for the first time you saw merit in taking the time to piss on some of my thoughts is the most compelling evidence that these same thoughts may well be on the right track.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Individuation

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:57 pm

Meno_ wrote:Me know for instance, some people who have been or are in this dark place know, and are not afraid to say it that they are the evidence into themselves.


Meno ... thanks for attempting to respond to Phyllo's question yet, I feel he is already beyond words at the moment ... ergo ... words won't help ... in fact they are harmful.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Individuation

Postby phyllo » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:26 am

Meno ... thanks for attempting to respond to Phyllo's question yet, I feel he is already beyond words at the moment ... ergo ... words won't help ... in fact they are harmful.
:-k I better check the batteries in my flashlight.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Individuation

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:12 am

phyllo wrote:
Meno ... thanks for attempting to respond to Phyllo's question yet, I feel he is already beyond words at the moment ... ergo ... words won't help ... in fact they are harmful.
:-k I better check the batteries in my flashlight.


:lol: :lol:

Some say facetious comments reflect a deep rooted truth deep within the bowels of the individual uttering the comment.

Of course, you are the only one who can ever know. :-)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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