Death

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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:35 am

Now, perhaps it is my turn to say something.

Let me ask one more question first.

One's pulse is stopped completely since some weeks.
One's heartbeat is stopped completely since some weeks.
One's brain is stopped completely since some weeks.

Can we say for all practical reasons that now this one is forever dead for sure, and there is no way that it can become alive again ever in the future?

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:32 pm

Can we say for all practical reasons that now this one is forever dead for sure, and there is no way that it can become alive again ever in the future?
I will go on a limb and say that one is definitely dead forever.

Of course, the Christians will say that God will resurrect the dead at the last judgement.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
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"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:58 pm

phyllo wrote:
Can we say for all practical reasons that now this one is forever dead for sure, and there is no way that it can become alive again ever in the future?
I will go on a limb and say that one is definitely dead forever.

Okay.

Of course, the Christians will say that God will resurrect the dead at the last judgement.

God is not allowed in this thread
.


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Re: Death

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:08 pm

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7.

Man became a living soul in the physical realm, but his soul was already in existence in the spiritual realm. You did not offer the proof I requested.
Where in the Bible does it say explicitly that the soul, not the human body, dies?


Nowhere in the Scriptures does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.

Souls do not die nor are they resurrected for judgement day, they are already existing in purgatory with their history of memories based on their Earthbound behaviors in tact.

I'm gonna dig out my Bible and find you some scriptural evidence you may deny. :evilfun: It'll be like looking for a needle in a haystack which makes for happy hunting.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:21 pm

The idea that a person can exist without a body is a Greek idea. The Biblical Jews did not think that way. Even the ones who believed in an afterlife, thought that those in heaven/hell had physical bodies.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Death

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:32 pm

Plato correctly described the location of the soul as I know it to be true (at some point when I refind it, I will provide a copy of his descriptions). The soul has it's own body able to exist separate from the physical human body.
Last edited by WendyDarling on Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Death

Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:34 pm

How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?


You cannot know anything that is "permanent" or "infinite". You can only know what is transient and finite. In other words, you cannot know that someone is dead for all eternity, you can only know that someone has been dead for a period of time. You can also expect that someone will be dead in the future but expectations aren't reality i.e. your expectations can be proven wrong no matter how certain of them you are.

The key is to understand how intelligence works. Most people idealize intelligence. They think that intelligence is something it is not, some kind of supernatural ability that allows us to travel into the future in order to see what's going to happen. That's not what intelligence is.

What exactly happens to anyone to conclude that now one is dead for sure.


What happens is that we get tired of waiting for people to "wake up". You need to set a time limit if you want to find your answer. Otherwise you won't find it. In other words, you wait certain amount of time and if they don't "wake up" within the set period of time, you pronounce them dead, if they do, you pronounce them alive.
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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:36 pm

The soul has it's own body able to exist separate from the physical human body.
What kind of body does the soul have? What are its characteristics?
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:42 pm

You cannot know anything that is "permanent" or "infinite". You can only know what is transient and finite. In other words, you cannot know that someone is dead for all eternity, you can only know that someone has been dead for a period of time. You can also expect that someone will be dead in the future but expectations aren't reality i.e. your expectations can be proven wrong no matter how certain of them you are.
The body is going to rot - it will be consumed by animals, bugs and bacteria. Once it's gone, that person is not coming back unless he gets a new body. And that means there is a soul separated from the physical body which survives the destruction of a body and can take residence in another body.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Death

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:45 pm

Now you're on board Phyllo. :evilfun: :wink:
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:54 pm

No I'm not. Maybe my post was not clear. I merely pointed out the obvious fact the body will be destroyed after death. If you expect someone to come alive again, then he will need a new body. And the consequence of that thinking is that there would have to be a mobile soul.

But I'm not a dualist. I don't actually think that a soul can exist without a physical body, so I don't think that anyone is coming back after dying.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Death

Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:02 pm

phyllo wrote:
You cannot know anything that is "permanent" or "infinite". You can only know what is transient and finite. In other words, you cannot know that someone is dead for all eternity, you can only know that someone has been dead for a period of time. You can also expect that someone will be dead in the future but expectations aren't reality i.e. your expectations can be proven wrong no matter how certain of them you are.
The body is going to rot - it will be consumed by animals, bugs and bacteria. Once it's gone, that person is not coming back unless he gets a new body. And that means there is a soul separated from the physical body which survives the destruction of a body and can take residence in another body.


It would be the same body reconstructed.
More or less.
You can also view it that way.
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Re: Death

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:09 pm

Yes, the soul is mobile...I've moved mine outside of my physical body on occasion.

phyllo wrote:
The soul has it's own body able to exist separate from the physical human body.
What kind of body does the soul have? What are its characteristics?

You want it's measurements and location in the human body? I've already written about this a few times. I'll check my earlier posts.

The soul is definitely affected by emotions. The souls can power up on emotions almost like the superhero, Superman, basking in the sun for his strength, however souls are very affected by all strong, pure emotions like love, joy, fear, anger and it depends on the emotion what behavior you will witness a soul enact. Fear and anger may give you super energized destructive ugliness whereas love and joy may give you super energized creative helpfulness. I believe that God's conscious mind, the spiritual realms, is divided into dimensions of emotional energy, a plane for every pure emotion, where we may pull our very life forces, soul source from. Simply put, the essence of our soul aligns with a dimension in God's conscious mind that is powered by one of God's emotions. God provides the emotional energy that fuels our souls. We decide which emotional energies we pull from throughout our human lives, then after we die, we return to the emotional plane with which we most align or were born from, perhaps to be reborn in another body or even the same body (which would account for all my crazy deja vus).

Phyllo, I'm speculating some so this makes more sense to me as I answer your question. It's quite an important endeavor to discover what lies beyond the physical mortal realm of Earth.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:12 pm

It would be the same body reconstructed.
More or less.
You can also view it that way.
Reconstructed by who and why?
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Death

Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:14 pm

In fact, it does not even matter what kind of body someone is "reborn" into.
Every person has certain key characterics. And in order to remain the same person, these characteristics must persist through time.
I have absolutely no idea what's inside Donald Trump. And I don't care.
Because what Donald Trump is is not what Donald Trump is on the inside.
He could be anything on the inside. For all I care, he could be hollow.
One has to learn how to filter through information -- how to separate between relevant and irrelevant information.
Because not all information is relevant.
Large quantities of information does not automatically equal good.
Artistry is required. You need to be an artist.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:15 pm

You want it's measurements and location in the human body? I've already written about this a few times. I'll check my earlier posts.

The soul is definitely affected by emotions. The souls can power up on emotions almost like the superhero, Superman, basking in the sun for his strength, however souls are very affected by all strong, pure emotions like love, joy, fear, anger and it depends on the emotion what behavior you will witness a soul enact. Fear and anger may give you super energized destructive ugliness whereas love and joy may give you super energized creative helpfulness. I believe that God's conscious mind, the spiritual realms, is divided into dimensions of emotional energy, a plane for every pure emotion, where we may pull our very life forces, soul source from. Simply put, the essence of our soul aligns with a dimension in God's conscious mind that is powered by one of God's emotions. God provides the emotional energy that fuels our souls. We decide which emotional energies we pull from throughout our human lives, then after we die, we return to the emotional plane with which we most align or were born from, perhaps to be reborn in another body or even the same body (which would account for all my crazy deja vus).

Phyllo, I'm speculating some so this makes more sense to me as I answer your question. It's quite an important endeavor to discover what lies beyond the physical mortal realm of Earth.
How did you discover all that?
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Death

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:17 pm

phyllo wrote:No I'm not. Maybe my post was not clear. I merely pointed out the obvious fact the body will be destroyed after death. If you expect someone to come alive again, then he will need a new body. And the consequence of that thinking is that there would have to be a mobile soul.

But I'm not a dualist. I don't actually think that a soul can exist without a physical body, so I don't think that anyone is coming back after dying.

A soul will most definitely exist just not in this physical dimension until it is reattached during mortal pregnancy inside another human body.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Death

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:20 pm

How did you discover all that?

I spent several years practicing astral projection techniques until I was able to raise my conscious soul from my physical body during an awakened state.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Death

Postby Alf » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:24 pm

A Shieldmaiden wrote:JSS wrote
The soul is the fundamental concept and definition of what an individually is. It is necessarily eternal, as are all concepts.


What is your source?

:lol:
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Re: Death

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:30 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:In fact, it does not even matter what kind of body someone is "reborn" into.
Every person has certain key characterics. And in order to remain the same person, these characteristics must persist through time.
I have absolutely no idea what's inside Donald Trump. And I don't care.
Because what Donald Trump is is not what Donald Trump is on the inside.
He could be anything on the inside. For all I care, he could be hollow.
One has to learn how to filter through information -- how to separate between relevant and irrelevant information.
Because not all information is relevant.
Large quantities of information does not automatically equal good.
Artistry is required. You need to be an artist.

The essence of a soul...go contribute to that thread of mine, What Of Your Essence?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:14 am

zinnat wrote:Now, perhaps it is my turn to say something.

Let me ask one more question first.

One's pulse is stopped completely since some weeks.
One's heartbeat is stopped completely since some weeks.
One's brain is stopped completely since some weeks.

Can we say for all practical/medical reasons that now this one is forever dead for sure, and there is no way that it can become alive again ever in the future?

with love,
sanjay


A little provocation.

Were those simple questions so difficult that only phyllo was able to answer?

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Death

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:57 am

Empirical evidence overwhelmingly points to "dead forever".

Despite the overwhelming empirical evidence Phyllo's precis is surprising ... "I'll go out on a limb"

Sanjay ... seems you have exposed a frightful human emotion ... humiliation. :-)

Will you allow me a question?

What stage of body decomposition exists ... "since some weeks"?

Body Decomposition Timeline

24-72 hours after death — the internal organs decompose.

3-5 days after death — the body starts to bloat and blood-containing foam leaks from the mouth and nose.

8-10 days after death — the body turns from green to red as the blood decomposes and the organs in the abdomen accumulate gas.

Several weeks after death — nails and teeth fall out.

1 month after death — the body starts to liquify.
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Re: Death

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:13 am

Wendy darling wrote:

Souls do not die nor are they resurrected for judgement day, they are already existing in purgatory with their history of memories based on their Earthbound behaviors in tact. I'm gonna dig out my Bible and find you some scriptural evidence you may deny. :evilfun: It'll be like looking for a needle in a haystack which makes for happy hunting.


The question is how much does one comprehend after death? When you die you are at least in limbo or purgatory, isn't that so?

There are all these places people have concocted, rather than accept that the dead know nothing.

Scripture does not teach about "limbo or purgatory".

Show me the word limbo in the Scriptures.

Where in the Scriptures is the word purgatory. It is not there is it. These are just man made things.



Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

5
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6
Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.


It could not be any clearer than that, almost like a dictionary definition.
The man that walks his own road, walks alone

Old Norse Proverb
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Re: Death

Postby surreptitious57 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:29 am

A Shieldmaiden wrote:
Scripture does not teach about limbo or purgatory

Show me the word limbo in the Scriptures

Where in the Scriptures is the word purgatory

Purgatory and Limbo do not appear in Scripture because they were added on by the Catholic Church very much later on
Purgatory was for sinners who were thought redeemable and Limbo was for babies who died before they were baptised
Limbo has since been discarded presumably because punishing innocents was not seen as something morally justifiable
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Re: Death

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:14 am

surreptitious57, thank you, I am aware of it's pagan origins and practices.

Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.
Deuteronomy 12:32
The man that walks his own road, walks alone

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