Death

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Death

Postby zinnat » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:42 pm

What is death?
How we should define death?
How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Death

Postby Alf » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:53 pm

zinnat wrote:What is death?

Death is "absence of life".

zinnat wrote:How we should define death?

The shortest definition is certainly "absence of life".

zinnat wrote:How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?

1) Knowing that there is no heartbeat of this one.
2) Knowing that there is no brain activity of this one.
3) Knowing after observing this very probably dead one further over a certain time (at least three days).
Last edited by Alf on Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Death

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:07 pm

zinnat wrote:What is death? Death is the transition of our conscious energy body, our soul, out of our human form.

How we should define death? I don't believe that any human souls have died or went into non-existence, so it would be difficult to describe what has yet to happen.
How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure? :evilfun: Ask God . We may be eternal beings so we witness many beginnings and many endings while our spiritual essence, our soul, continues existing throughout eternity.

with love,
sanjay
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Death

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:11 pm

zinnat

It is good to have you back here, Zinnat.
By the way, did you ever make it over Know Thyself?

What is death?

You mean the end of it all or the little deaths which we experience now and then?


How we should define death?

Define *should*.
Does there have to be one particular way in which we must define death?


How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?


The smell will give it away. :oops:
I know, that was crass.
Last edited by Arcturus Descending on Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Death

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:44 pm

What is death? ... the butterfly asked the caterpillar. :-)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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Re: Death

Postby Kathrina » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:44 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:What is death? ... the butterfly asked the caterpillar. :-)

And what did the caterpillar answer? :)
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Re: Death

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:21 am

Communication terminates when one crosses the threshold from life to death ... at least according to conventional wisdom ... ergo ... science.

OTH ... ancient ... very ancient ... cultural traditions and rituals point to communication after death ... suggesting one retains individual consciousness after death. We can never know ... with any degree of certainty ... one way or the other. or can we. :-)

Language compels the use of naming conventions ... which inevitably leads to ambiguity and confusion ... which in turn all too often leads to hostility and violence.

The caterpillar responded ... you have to die in order to really 'know'. :-)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:54 am

Alf wrote:
zinnat wrote:What is death?

Death is "absence of life".

That answer is not enough. You are answering a definition by putting another definition forth, which again needs to be elaborated.

zinnat wrote:How we should define death?

The shortest definition is certainly "absence of life".

Same as above. If you want to persist with that answer, you have to explain what you exactly mean by life.

zinnat wrote:How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?

1) Knowing that there is no heartbeat of this one.
2) Knowing that there is no brain activity of this one.
3) Knowing after observing this very probably dead one further over a certain time (at least three days).

All these three answers are wrong. I would explain or rather prove that later.

with love,
sanjay
.
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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:58 am

WendyDarling wrote:
zinnat wrote:What is death? Death is the transition of our conscious energy body, our soul, out of our human form.

How we should define death? I don't believe that any human souls have died or went into non-existence, so it would be difficult to describe what has yet to happen.
How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure? :evilfun: Ask God . We may be eternal beings so we witness many beginnings and many endings while our spiritual essence, our soul, continues existing throughout eternity.

with love,
sanjay


Your answers may be right by not acceptable in philosophy as you have not provided any reasoning. Find some arguments to support your claim.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Death

Postby Kathrina » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:02 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Communication terminates when one crosses the threshold from life to death ... at least according to conventional wisdom ... ergo ... science.

OTH ... ancient ... very ancient ... cultural traditions and rituals point to communication after death ... suggesting one retains individual consciousness after death. We can never know ... with any degree of certainty ... one way or the other. or can we. :-)

Language compels the use of naming conventions ... which inevitably leads to ambiguity and confusion ... which in turn all too often leads to hostility and violence.

The caterpillar responded ... you have to die in order to really 'know'. :-)

:)

That's a philosophical, very wise answer.
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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:04 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:zinnat

It is good to have you back here, Zinnat?

Thanks.

By the way, did you ever make it over Know Thyself?

No. but i sometimes read the posts there.

What is death?

You mean the end of it all or the little deaths which we experience now and then?


No, i am talking about permanent death, from where one cannot be alive again.



How we should define death?


Define *should*.
Does there have to be one particular way in which we must define death?

Yes, i think so.


How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?


The smell will give it away. :oops:
I know, that was crass.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Death

Postby Kathrina » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:08 am

Are you a subjectivist, Sanjay?
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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:30 am

Kathrina wrote:Are you a subjectivist, Sanjay?


No, the opposite one, at least by intent.
I would prefer to take a call every time and take the risk of being wrong instead of saying that nothing can be decided ever.

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sanjay
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Re: Death

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:30 am

Death is a transition from consciousness to non consciousness
And if it is permanent then that can never actually be known
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:54 am

surreptitious75 wrote:Death is a transition from consciousness to non consciousness


That may be true but that still does as not answer all questions.

The real issue is spot physical or real time verification of the death. What exactly happens to anyone to conclude that now one is dead for sure. What scientific/medical test/condition is sufficient to conclude that one is now dead forever?

Alf provided three types of spot physical verification as below -
1) Knowing that there is no heartbeat of this one.
2) Knowing that there is no brain activity of this one.
3) Knowing after observing this very probably dead one further over a certain time (at least three days).


These tests generally confirms death but not in all cases. Can you offer some such other confirmatory test?

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Re: Death

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:18 am

What kind of inherent nature does man possess?

Does he have a mortal nature or an immortal nature? According to the dictionary, the word “mortal” means “subject to death,” and the word “immortal” means “not subject to death.” Simply stated then man is mortal and subject to death, nobody has died and returned to tell us what it is like on the other side. The clearest and most concise inspired definition of death was written "then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (spirit meaning the breath).
The man that walks his own road, walks alone

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Re: Death

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:14 pm

zinnat wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:
zinnat wrote:What is death? Death is the transition of our conscious energy body, our soul, out of our human form.

How we should define death? I don't believe that any human souls have died or went into non-existence, so it would be difficult to describe what has yet to happen.
How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure? :evilfun: Ask God . We may be eternal beings so we witness many beginnings and many endings while our spiritual essence, our soul, continues existing throughout eternity.

with love,
sanjay


Your answers may be right by not acceptable in philosophy as you have not provided any reasoning. Find some arguments to support your claim.

with love,
sanjay

How do you support with argumentation what hasn't happened yet? I've astral projected so I have lived via my soul away from my physical body and I have fed from the eternal river of Peace while astral projecting so I am less skeptical than most people who struggle with their beliefs about what comes after the death of the physical human body.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Death

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:36 pm

Ask yourself this. What kind of inherent nature does man possess. Is his nature mortal or immortal, according to the dictionary, the word mortal means subject to death and the word immortal means not subject to death. It is not difficult to figure out that man is mortal and subject to death and nobody has died and returned to tell us what death is like. Why? Because the dead know nothing.
The man that walks his own road, walks alone

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Re: Death

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:44 pm

Man possesses two natures, two bodies...an external, human flesh body and an internal, spiritual soul body. The spirit in God's kiss may simply connect the soul body with the flesh body for our stay in the Earth realm. That kiss doesn't necessarily mean a new soul is born, but rather simply a new human being is born with an ancient soul.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Death

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:49 pm

Absolute rubbish.
The man that walks his own road, walks alone

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Re: Death

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:30 pm

zinnat,

How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?


Rationally speaking,..


http://doctorshub1.blogspot.com/2014/02 ... -dead.html

Aside from that, when that one or that self or that being, is pronounced legally dead, there cannot ultimately be any evidence one way or the other as to consciousness surviving in another form.


And we are not caterpillars doing what must be done in order to be transformed into butterflies.
The caterpillar works with the material which it once had in order to eventually become the butterfly.

Once the human being is dead, heart dead, brain dead, once all human functioning has ceased and become defunct, no one can possibly know what if anything occurs next.
For what we cannot explain, we fill in the gaps to our own liking, which is natural to us humans.
It's like proving or disproving a First Cause. It cannot be done so some of us fill in the gaps by a living faith.
It doesn't make it so though.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


I learn as I write!
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Re: Death

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:48 pm

A Shieldmaiden

What kind of inherent nature does man possess?


The capacity to evolve, to survive, to struggle, to learn, to imagine, to be inspired, ad continuum...


Does he have a mortal nature


Yes, capable of dying and being destroyed. Even the experience of pain and grief is part of his mortal nature.

or an immortal nature?


It wouldn't appear to be that way. Perhaps there will come a time when it may be proven one way or the other. Don't know how that might be but until then - until I can know, I will not believe. Then I won't have to believe. haha
What if there IS no such thing as immortality?
Once we have breathed our last, we would not be aware of not being.

The clearest and most concise inspired definition of death was written "then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (spirit meaning the breath).


I think that whoever wrote that passage probably had the belief in the eternal soul; otherwise, there would be no breath or spirit or soul returning to God.
He or she was just giving to Earth what belonged to Earth and to God what belonged to God.
Let's not forget that this came from the Bible.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


I learn as I write!
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Re: Death

Postby Alf » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:04 pm

zinnat wrote:
Alf wrote:
zinnat wrote:What is death?

Death is "absence of life".

That answer is not enough. You are answering a definition by putting another definition forth, which again needs to be elaborated.

zinnat wrote:How we should define death?

The shortest definition is certainly "absence of life".

Same as above. If you want to persist with that answer, you have to explain what you exactly mean by life.

zinnat wrote:How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?

1) Knowing that there is no heartbeat of this one.
2) Knowing that there is no brain activity of this one.
3) Knowing after observing this very probably dead one further over a certain time (at least three days).

All these three answers are wrong. I would explain or rather prove that later.

with love,
sanjay
.

With my answers above, I am in absolute agreement with all doctors, all physicians, all neurologists, all natural scientists.

And you are saying that they are "wrong"?
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Re: Death

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:09 pm

zinnat,

I look forward to your explanation and proof.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


I learn as I write!
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Re: Death

Postby Serendipper » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:15 am

zinnat wrote:What is death?

Life's state of nonexistence.

How we should define death?

^^^

How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?

There is no such thing as permanently dead.

How can we be sure someone is dead???

Two hunters are out in the woods when one of them collapses.
He doesn't seem to be breathing and his eyes are glazed.
The other guy whips out his phone and calls the emergency services.
He gasps, "My friend is dead! What can I do?"
The operator says "Calm down. I can help. First, let's make sure he's dead."
There is a silence, then a gun shot is heard.
Back on the phone, the guy says "OK, now what?"
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