hell

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hell

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:18 am

The inherent state of existence is torment.

We are inherently, perpetually bored. Femininity is an additive force. We must always exert force (work, energy) in order to avoid the inherent state of existence (neutrality).

Pain and pleasure can be roughly quantized into numerical values.

Pain tends to feel to last longer, while "time flies when we are having fun".

If we measured how much pain and pleasure someone has, on average, the pain would be more often.

We fear death only because it is a brief moment of intense pain, sickness is a brief moment of intense pain.

We value life only because we chase after brief moments of intense pleasure.

People cling to life like cockroaches.

They are cowards in all their actions.
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Re: hell

Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:27 pm

Stop being so miserable and nihilistic and go and find something to occupy your Mensa size brain theres plenty for you to do
You sound like an old man waiting to die you sound like me except I am not actually miserable and never really am anymore
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Re: hell

Postby Serendipper » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:24 am

surreptitious75 wrote:Stop being so miserable and nihilistic and go and find something to occupy your Mensa size brain theres plenty for you to do
You sound like an old man waiting to die you sound like me except I am not actually miserable and never really am anymore

How did you cure it?
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Re: hell

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:08 am

You sound like an old man waiting to die



Death ... of the 'self' ... the 'ego' ... the 'I' . The death of 'self' while still standing is a long difficult and painful journey.

The journey passes through five stages:

1) denial

2) anger

3) bargaining

4) depression

5) acceptance

The above 5 stages are a part of the framework that makes up our learning to live with the one we lost(the 'self' ... the 'ego' ... the 'I'). They are tools to help us frame and identify what we may be feeling.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: hell

Postby Serendipper » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:20 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
You sound like an old man waiting to die



Death ... of the 'self' ... the 'ego' ... the 'I' . The death of 'self' while still standing is a long difficult and painful journey.

The journey passes through five stages:

1) denial

2) anger

3) bargaining

4) depression

5) acceptance

The above 5 stages are a part of the framework that makes up our learning to live with the one we lost(the 'self' ... the 'ego' ... the 'I'). They are tools to help us frame and identify what we may be feeling.

Good stuff!

Do you think depression is anger turned inwards?

What does bargaining mean?

"A man may be born, but in order to be born he must first die, and in order to die he must first be awake." - Gurdjieff, not that it matters ;)
"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats." Howard Aiken
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Re: hell

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:55 am

Serendipper wrote: "A man may be born, but in order to be born he must first die, and in order to die he must first be awake." - Gurdjieff, not that it matters ;)


Read a bit about Gurdjieff ... interesting.

A few personal opinions:

1) One never voluntarily embarks on a journey towards the death of 'self'.

2) Most people on the 'journey' have no idea/understanding what is happening to them. Modern psychology/psychiatry can't help ... one needs to experience it to really 'know' it. Imagine most of the people currently taking prozac ... or similar anti depressants ... being told they are perfectly healthy ... ergo ... no need of the chemical concoctions ... only a need for a change in world view and consequently a change in lifestyle.

3) Other people ... often strangers ... can 'see' what you can't. Two personal experiences at the end of this post.


Do you think depression is anger turned inwards?


I think depression is a manifestation ... and awareness ... of the 'disconnect'. The individual's connection to the world and worldly affairs animates us ... a fracture in this connection is like a crack in a dam ... at some pointy the dam will burst.

What does bargaining mean?


Suppose like all notions/concepts it means different things to different people. IMO it's the stage where one has an awareness that something happened ... is happening ... and they want to go back to the way it was. These people engage in a series of compromises ... meant to mitigate the discomfort of a complete death of 'self'. Eventually fatigue sets in ... none of the compromises have long shelf life ... and the individual moves along to the next stage.

Personal encounters/experiences along the 'way' that helped me understand what was happening in my 'inner being'.

Some time later I was sharing my above sheep philosophy with a man from Scotland over a beer in the local Spanish Bar. After listening to my story he offered another version of sheep philosophy. He told me a story about sheep farmers in his country. When the farmer is penning the sheep at night, seems there is always one sheep who refuses to go into the pen. The farmer chases him around for a while and finally gives up and closes the pen, leaving this solitary sheep locked out.
Meditating on this story I found several parallels with my own life.
• The sheep pen represents our culture. We are ‘penned’ in by our culture … the boundaries of acceptable behavior is defined and we are expected to conform and abide by the rule of law. We are penned in!
• Throughout history there have always been renegades, those individuals who refused to follow and simply created a different pen Luther and the Protestant movement is a good example.
A few days later, still excited about this new spin on my sheep philosophy, I shared both versions with Bernadette. She obviously listened intently because she turned to me and said “Bruce … you are circling the pen.” She saw me in the story. How exciting this revelation was for me! Clearly, my wandering aimlessly for the previous several years could be summed up with the words “you are circling the pen”. These few words resonated so deeply in my inner self. I had literally walked away from mainstream society, yet despite being on the fringe of society my innate yearning to belong kept me within spitting distance of mainstream society. I was not prepared for the life of a hermit.
This reality was reinforced with discussions with Xavier, the young cook at the hotel in Nerja where I worked as a dishwasher. Xavier also saw through the thin veneer of my story, he saw my hypocrisy, the insincerity of my ranting against mainstream culture. He asked me one day … “How did you get to Spain? Did you take an airplane? Knowing the answer before he asked told me he simply wanted to remind me that I was still quite content to participate in the privileges of mainstream culture. Ouch! This day I too saw my hypocrisy!!
One day while walking through a remote part of southern Spain (my pilgrimage along the Ruta de la Plata) I heard a sheep bellowing, what a sad sound! The noise woke me from my day dreaming and I looked around for the circumstances that would create such a cry. Turns out there was a solitary sheep locked inside a small pen while a large flock of sheep were grazing 50-100 meters away.
Again this image and sound resonated deep within me. I could see myself as the solitary sheep locked in the pen. By this time I had spent several years mostly alone, watching family, friends and strangers enjoying the fruits of mainstream society while I was in a self imposed exile. I was sad, lonely and at times desperate … I often wanted to cry out … let me back in! … I want to become part of mainstream culture again! Yet over and over again circumstances prevailed that would not allow me to voluntarily rejoin mainstream. I would stay on the narrow path and try to suffer quietly, retaining some dignity.
Finally, one last contribution to my sheep philosophy received from a fellow pilgrim. While walking the Camino Santiago with a young man named Christian I once again found myself sharing my sheep philosophy. On this day Christian seemed to listen sympathetically but offered no response. A day or so later I met up with Christian again. As often happens on the Camino, pilgrims walk together a for short time, get separated and meet again at some other point along the road.
When I met up with Christian again he wanted to share an experience he had since the last time we chatted, an experiencing involving sheep. Christian had been walking along and encountered a flock of sheep in the area. Perhaps prodded by my story, he observed their behavior. Christian was drawn to the behavior of the sheep in response to the barking of the dog. Most shepherds with large flocks keep a dog or two to help them control the sheep.
Christian shared with me how he was perplexed by the sheep’s response to the dog. It seemed irrational to him that the sheep could be so intimidated by this smaller animal running around yapping his head off.
Yet again Christian’s comments seemed to expand and reinforce my sheep philosophy … my conviction of the parallels between the actions of a flock of sheep and humanity. Christian’s comments reminded me how irrational it is that the compliance of the many is so easily subrogated to the rule of so few. In mainstream culture, referred to by some as ‘dominator culture’, the dog or two symbolize the ruling elite and the flock of sheep symbolize mankind.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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Re: hell

Postby Serendipper » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:39 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Serendipper wrote: "A man may be born, but in order to be born he must first die, and in order to die he must first be awake." - Gurdjieff, not that it matters ;)


Read a bit about Gurdjieff ... interesting.

He's a character :)

1) One never voluntarily embarks on a journey towards the death of 'self'.

Definitely not while sleeping ;)

2) Most people on the 'journey' have no idea/understanding what is happening to them. Modern psychology/psychiatry can't help ... one needs to experience it to really 'know' it. Imagine most of the people currently taking prozac ... or similar anti depressants ... being told they are perfectly healthy ... ergo ... no need of the chemical concoctions ... only a need for a change in world view and consequently a change in lifestyle.

Antidepressants are expensive tic tacs http://www.newsweek.com/why-antidepress ... ebos-71111

3) Other people ... often strangers ... can 'see' what you can't.

That's insightful because the ego is essentially our opinion of other's opinions of us through the lens of our biases. Discovering the truth of what people see can shatter the ego.

Do you think depression is anger turned inwards?


I think depression is a manifestation ... and awareness ... of the 'disconnect'. The individual's connection to the world and worldly affairs animates us ... a fracture in this connection is like a crack in a dam ... at some pointy the dam will burst.

I heard that on the sopranos. https://twitter.com/TheSopranoQuote/sta ... 6209783808

I figured if 'anger turned outward' were step 2, then 'anger turned inward' could come next... and the realization of futility would follow.

What does bargaining mean?


Suppose like all notions/concepts it means different things to different people. IMO it's the stage where one has an awareness that something happened ... is happening ... and they want to go back to the way it was. These people engage in a series of compromises ... meant to mitigate the discomfort of a complete death of 'self'. Eventually fatigue sets in ... none of the compromises have long shelf life ... and the individual moves along to the next stage.

So it's the realization of futility?

Some time later I was sharing my above sheep philosophy

What's that?

with a man from Scotland over a beer in the local Spanish Bar. After listening to my story he offered another version of sheep philosophy. He told me a story about sheep farmers in his country. When the farmer is penning the sheep at night, seems there is always one sheep who refuses to go into the pen. The farmer chases him around for a while and finally gives up and closes the pen, leaving this solitary sheep locked out.

Yeah, it seems the universe has an element of irreducible rascality. Any effort to tame nature seems to be met with rebellion and I suspect is has something to do with the ego not being aligned with or an artifact of nature. The ego is a fabrication and construct of imagination and doesn't exist in reality.

• The sheep pen represents our culture. We are ‘penned’ in by our culture … the boundaries of acceptable behavior is defined and we are expected to conform and abide by the rule of law. We are penned in!

Paradigms. Some animals stick to the herd and some run away. When the herd-model stops working, the species will evolve into an independent-model paradigm. The rascality is necessary for natural selection; there needs to be some rascals by chance.

• Throughout history there have always been renegades, those individuals who refused to follow and simply created a different pen Luther and the Protestant movement is a good example.

Rascals are necessary.

A few days later, still excited about this new spin on my sheep philosophy, I shared both versions with Bernadette. She obviously listened intently because she turned to me and said “Bruce … you are circling the pen.” She saw me in the story. How exciting this revelation was for me! Clearly, my wandering aimlessly for the previous several years could be summed up with the words “you are circling the pen”.

Pretty cool!

One day while walking through a remote part of southern Spain (my pilgrimage along the Ruta de la Plata) I heard a sheep bellowing, what a sad sound! The noise woke me from my day dreaming and I looked around for the circumstances that would create such a cry. Turns out there was a solitary sheep locked inside a small pen while a large flock of sheep were grazing 50-100 meters away.

Fencing others out fences you in.

In mainstream culture, referred to by some as ‘dominator culture’, the dog or two symbolize the ruling elite and the flock of sheep symbolize mankind

That was a nice story. Thanks for sharing!
"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats." Howard Aiken
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Re: hell

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:28 am

Serendipper ... for me ... vanity is a constant threat ... despite serious efforts to avoid it ... it bites me in the ass regularly.

This morning your thoughtful response to my post feels good!

I have come to believe that personal thoughts ... not confirmed by personal experience ... are like farts in a windstorm.

Some time later I was sharing my above sheep philosophy

What's that?


My first serious attempt at expressing personal thoughts occurred in Spain in October 2000. At the time ... somehow sufficient courage to attempt putting in print the result of several years of "talking to the wall" materialized ... hence, the birth of my 'sheep philosophy' ... in print.

We live in turbulent times … the demands of simply keeping pace with day to day living leave precious little time for anything else. Augustine of Hippo wrote almost 1,600 years ago … “Oh! … You torrent of human custom, who can stand against you?”
Perhaps some members of our medical community have recently provided the answer to the above dilemma posed by Augustine in 400 AD. The medical community has proven the mortality rate amongst newborn babies is higher for those who do not receive cuddling and affection … “the human touch”. Surely this need for connection through touch is an innate and permanent human characteristic. The image of a premi lying in an incubator comes to mind. While the infant has the warmth and nutrition required for survival, doctors have found that touching the infant, even the simple touch of a finger, improves the chances of survival.
True at birth, seems to me that this need for “the human touch” must hold true throughout our lives … as important at age 80 as at birth. The ‘will’ to live seems predicated on the knowing that we are not alone … we are connected … we belong!
Have you ever asked yourself … What is going on? … Where are we? … Where are we headed? What will we do when we get there?
We often hear the expression ‘the evolution of mankind’. The word evolution infers movement, figuratively speaking, from Point A to Point B. We live in the times referred to as Point A … Where is Point B? … What does life look like at Point B? … and … What is this phenomenon of movement? ( or ‘torrent’ as expressed by Augustine)
For the past several years, the notion of evolution as ‘movement’ tickled my mind. Setting aside recorded history, Darwinian theory and religious dogma, I reflected only on the notion of ‘movement’. The meditations seemed to be inspired by my frequent observations of flocks of sheep, while traveling through the Middle East, Europe and most recently Spain.
The first occurrence was in 1996 … on top of a mountain in Bosnia Hertzgovina.
While sitting there, I heard the sound of cow bells … seemed strange … why would there be cow bells ringing on top of this mountain? In a few moments a small flock of sheep and their shepherd arrived on top of the mountain.
How exciting! … especially for someone who grew up in Canada where sheep are raised in barns and fenced enclosures. I had only ever read or watched on television shepherds wandering the countryside and mountains with their sheep.
Here at the dawn of the 21st century was an authentic shepherd with his sheep … wow!
Several years later … after seeing many flocks of sheep in various circumstances always with their shepherds … I found myself thinking … when a large flock of sheep is moving along most of the sheep … almost all of the sheep … can only see the ‘butt’ of the sheep in front of them.
They have no idea where they are going or what the terrain they are passing through looks like.
A few years later it occurred o me … not only can all they see is the ‘butt’ in front of them … worse yet … they have no choice but keep their nose glued to the ‘butt’ of the sheep walking in front of them … they cannot stop … the sheep behind them will trample them …they cannot move forward … or sideways … there are countless sheep pressing them on all sides … hmmm! Seems they are not willing to leave the flock … seems sheep also feel safe and secure through ‘belonging’.

Who is the shepherd?
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: hell

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:08 am

Fencing others out fences you in.


At the time of this experience my thoughts/feelings were:

1) The solitary sheep in the small pen symbolizes the natural human state ... isolated and detached.

2) The heart wrenching sounds the sheep was uttering symbolize human discomfort with our natural state of isolation and detachment.

3) The flock of sheep grazing peacefully 50 or so metres away symbolize the "balm" of congregation ... a worthy distraction yet doesn't alter our fundamental nature ... isolated and detached.

4) At the time I was uncomfortable in the 'crowd' ... mainstream society and equally uncomfortable alone ... isolated and detached. I was in Liminal Space ... in transition. Today I find myself increasingly uncomfortable in the 'crowd' and increasing comfortable alone ... isolated and detached.

Confirms UP's opening sentence in this OP ...

The inherent state of existence is torment.



A thought ... like a brick ... has some utility but not much.

OTH ... a pile of bricks cemented together in a specific pattern provide considerable utility ... for example ... a shelter.

Likewise a cluster of thoughts knitted together by the symbiotic relationship between individual thoughts and personal experiences provide considerable utility.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: hell

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:03 am

One never voluntarily embarks on a journey towards the death of 'self'.


Definitely not while sleeping.


Hmmm!

Maybe only "during sleep" can one be placed on this journey?

UP's comments may apply ...

People cling to life like cockroaches.

They are cowards in all their actions.


Seems to me people who 'know' via academia ... an inferior sense of knowing ... experience is superior to knowledge ... are 'awake' yet lack the motivation to embark on such a journey ... the journey is the antithesis of academia.

OTH ... people who unknowingly have been on the 'journey' ... perhaps for several years ... before realizing/understanding it ... find it more difficult to turn back than to go forward. This has been my experience.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: hell

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:33 am

Eventually fatigue sets in ... none of the compromises have long shelf life ... and the individual moves along to the next stage.


So it's the realization of futility?


Futility as in Einstein's take on insanity ... "people who do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result" :)

No ... at least not in my experience. Futility has never been much of an obstacle for a large chunk of the human family.

I'll stick with the word "fatigue" ... that state of mind, body and soul where one simply has nothing left ... one is completely spent. Experienced this condition so many times during my 4,000 kilometre walk ... especially the days I walked 25+ kilometres in 35+ C.

When utter fatigue finally sets in you simply don't care any more ... one way or the other. Before long stuff starts to happen without any effort, stress or motivation ... Wu Wei ... as interpreted by Super Chakra. In my case ... coming to China in 2005 was one such event. China wasn't even on the radar ... ever in my life ... and my 12th anniversary living in China is just around the corner.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: hell

Postby Serendipper » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:13 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Serendipper ... for me ... vanity is a constant threat ... despite serious efforts to avoid it ... it bites me in the ass regularly.

Alan Watts has helped me a lot. You may enjoy listening to his lectures, but do so only if it's fun ;) What I've learned from him is if our motivation is anything but fun, then it's likely feeding the ego.

Here is an example he gave:
Student: Teach me to meditate.
Master: Why do you want to know?

If we meditate for the purpose of becoming 'better', then it's feeding the ego. Therefore the only reason to do it is because we like to do it and nothing more.

Another example he gives is, "Anyone who goes to a shrink ought to have his head examined." That means if you think you need help, then you must seek it until you realize that help is futile. It's a process one has to endure to come to the necessary realization that acts of self-improvement only serve to perpetuate our condition.

I have come to believe that personal thoughts ... not confirmed by personal experience ... are like farts in a windstorm.

A proverb is no proverb until life has illustrated it. - John Keats

My first serious attempt at expressing personal thoughts occurred in Spain in October 2000. At the time ... somehow sufficient courage to attempt putting in print the result of several years of "talking to the wall" materialized ... hence, the birth of my 'sheep philosophy' ... in print.

Sheeple :animals-sheep:

The ‘will’ to live seems predicated on the knowing that we are not alone … we are connected … we belong!

Reminds me of, "If I am I because I am I, and you are you because you are you, then I am I and you are you. But if I am I because you are you and you are you because I am I, then I am not I and you are not you!"

If I am distinct because of 'others', then I depend on others to be distinct, therefore I am not distinct but part of a codependency.

I found myself thinking … when a large flock of sheep is moving along most of the sheep … almost all of the sheep … can only see the ‘butt’ of the sheep in front of them.

What do you think when you see this?



Who is the shepherd?

Maybe there is no shepherd?
"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats." Howard Aiken
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Re: hell

Postby Serendipper » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:32 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Fencing others out fences you in.

At the time of this experience my thoughts/feelings were:

1) The solitary sheep in the small pen symbolizes the natural human state ... isolated and detached.

2) The heart wrenching sounds the sheep was uttering symbolize human discomfort with our natural state of isolation and detachment.

3) The flock of sheep grazing peacefully 50 or so metres away symbolize the "balm" of congregation ... a worthy distraction yet doesn't alter our fundamental nature ... isolated and detached.

4) At the time I was uncomfortable in the 'crowd' ... mainstream society and equally uncomfortable alone ... isolated and detached. I was in Liminal Space ... in transition. Today I find myself increasingly uncomfortable in the 'crowd' and increasing comfortable alone ... isolated and detached.

That one had relevancy for me many years ago while dating someone who pushed people away. The rest of the story is "You have to go out on a limb because that is where the fruit is." Don't push everyone away. You have to trust someone.


Confirms UP's opening sentence in this OP ...

The inherent state of existence is torment.

A thought ... like a brick ... has some utility but not much.

OTH ... a pile of bricks cemented together in a specific pattern provide considerable utility ... for example ... a shelter.

Likewise a cluster of thoughts knitted together by the symbiotic relationship between individual thoughts and personal experiences provide considerable utility.

Life is supposed to be difficult so that the best survive and evolve in the right direction. If pain were not elemental, then there would be no direction for natural selection. Of course, we have to eat bitter to taste sweet.

Coincidentally, it dawned on me today what the "light that never warms" means in this song:

Four winds at the Four Winds Bar
Two doors locked and windows barred
One door left to take you in
The other one just mirrors it

Hellish glare and inference
The other one's a duplicate
The Queenly flux, eternal light
Or the light that never warms
Yes the light that never, never warms

People have said that the light that never warms is the moon, since the song is called astronomy, but what about knowledge? You can build a shelter from knowledge, as you pointed out, but it can't warm you.

Full lyrics https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/metalli ... onomy.html
"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats." Howard Aiken
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Re: hell

Postby Serendipper » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:08 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:I'll stick with the word "fatigue" ... that state of mind, body and soul where one simply has nothing left ... one is completely spent. Experienced this condition so many times during my 4,000 kilometre walk ... especially the days I walked 25+ kilometres in 35+ C.

When utter fatigue finally sets in you simply don't care any more ... one way or the other. Before long stuff starts to happen without any effort, stress or motivation ... Wu Wei ... as interpreted by Super Chakra. In my case ... coming to China in 2005 was one such event. China wasn't even on the radar ... ever in my life ... and my 12th anniversary living in China is just around the corner.

You appear to be reinventing Zen ;)

I transcribed this from an Alan Watts video:

Let's suppose that you have some difficult and distressing habit, like drinking too much. You're assured that once you've become a victim of this habit, it's an extraordinary thing to get rid of it and it requires intense willpower. And so that kills you right off. You're a dead duck! It's as if you had said to the devil one morning, "I'm going to get rid of you. I'm not going to have anything to do with you anymore." So the devil, who is an archangel and is terribly clever, is all set for you. And because he knows you're getting out of his way, he surrounds you with greater temptations than you ever imagined. If you're going to outwit the devil, it's terribly important that you don't give him any advanced notice.

This is where the work of the sly man comes in. Put in Buddhism or Hindu terms, liberation is getting out of the toils of karma. Before you can be liberated, you have to pay off your karmic debts and so the moment you set your foot on the path of liberation you're apt to find that all your karmic creditors come to your door. And that's why it's been said that people who start out on a serious work of yoga, suddenly get sick and lose their money and their best friends drop dead and all sort of dreadful things happen to them. That's because they served notice they were going to do this and so all the creditors came around. If you're going to leave town and you owe lots of money, you mustn't announce that you're leaving or give a farewell party to your friends because the grocer will find out. So the art of the sly man is to make no contest, but simply to leave. Without one word. In other words, that's the meaning of Wu Wei... not to interfere, not to force things. In this respect, you are your own worst enemy. Because, even if you serve notice privately on yourself, that suddenly you're going to drop it all, already the devil knows... because who do you think the devil is?

Now this lies behind the whole problem that is discussed in the book "Zen and the art of archery": The necessity of letting go of the bowstring without first having decided to do so. Another way of putting it, the decision to release the bowstring and the action of doing so must be simultaneous. Why is this? If you're going to be an expert archer, you must shoot before you think; otherwise it will be too late. You don't aim then shoot; it's all one action. That puts up a very curious problem that in its own terms becomes a bind: To try not to decide first.... and that is an impossible problem.

How can I decide not to decide? How can I make an announcement that I won't be making an announcement without making an announcement? There is no way out of that bind. Try as you may, you'll go on and on and on.. trying... as Harigle did to release the bowstring without thinking first to release it. But then strangely enough one day the thing happened... he did it. We work and work to achieve that final point of perfection and it doesn't come, it doesn't come, and then one day it happens. What is the reason for that? It is not that we have practiced it so often that it suddenly becomes perfect, it is much more subtle than that. What happens is we practice so much that we find out we can't do it. And it happens at the moment you know you can't do it. When you reach a certain despair. You come to a point called "don't care." You stop trying... and you stop not-trying (trying to get it that way)...your decision, your will doesn't have any part in the thing at all. And that's what you needed to know. You've overcome the illusion of having a separate ego.

If I say I'm going to get rid of my ego, that's what the taoists call "beating a drum in search of a fugitive." He hears you coming. The illusion is having a separate will and a separate eye-center that can be an effective agent that cannot be overcome by a decision that seems to be centered in the ego. You may as well fight fire with fire. It can come only when an attempt to act from the ego center has been revealed to be completely futile because you've really discovered that it was an illusion.

Now, be careful how you formulate this philosophically. This could correspond to the sort of person who feels unafraid and he feels very free because he is a complete fatalist. A lot of people are and are very happy in their fatalism. They feel they don't do anything and it just happens to them. They won't die until it's time to die so why worry? That's too passive. That is, he has felt that there is still some kind of little differentiation between himself as the experiencer on the one hand and force or set of forces called fate on the other. He is pushed around, but he witnesses being pushed around. In this state he still has a little impurity left... and that is the sensation of being pushed around. There is still a fundamental division between the knower and the known. In this case, the fatalist case, the knower seems to be the passive thing and everything known, the objective world, appears to be the active end.

The important thing to find out is this: That the sensation of being the knower and the experiencer of all this, is not, as it were, aside from everything else that's going on, but it's part of it. Although you experience your existence subjectively, you are nevertheless part of the external world. You are in my external world just as I am in your external world. So in this way, the final barrier between the knower and the known is broken down. There is nobody being carried along by fate; there is just the process... and all that you are is part of the process.

He experiences no longer a passive relationship to the world, he simply sees that all that he is and all that he ever was, was something that the entire process was doing. At the time, when he felt himself to be separate, he sees in a certain way that that was just what he should have felt because that was what the process was doing in him, in exactly the same way as it was giving him brown or blue eyes. And that's going through the door and turning round to see there was no door. You're not fated, you're not trapped because there's nobody in the trap.
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Re: hell

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:41 pm

Just had another one of those "I don't care one way or the other" moments

It's OK to suggest a direction to look in ... it's not OK to tell people who decide to look "what to see".

Confucius


Scholars learn something new every day ... Daoists (un)learn something every day.

Mike Watts quoting Lao Tzu
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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Re: hell

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:15 pm

Hell beyond the realm of human suffering is redundancy.
"No God will punish a mortal for following his energy"(paraphrase)----Wm.Blake.
Eternal punishment for what is done in a lifetime is an example of the punishment outweighing the crime.
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Re: hell

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:45 am

Ierrellus wrote:Hell beyond the realm of human suffering is redundancy.
"No God will punish a mortal for following his energy"(paraphrase)----Wm.Blake.
Eternal punishment for what is done in a lifetime is an example of the punishment outweighing the crime.


Agreed Ierrellus.

On reflection, UP's OP suggests ... Hell = life on earth (The inherent state of existence is torment.)

Life on earth can be quite enjoyable in a dream-like state ... dream like meaning when one learns to block out all the pain and suffering (torment) one's actions hoist onto one's neighbors.

Ergo ...

Life in my little world is OK ... who cares if life in "The World" is not OK.
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