Where does meaning come from?

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Re: Where does meaning come from?

Postby Gamer » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:04 am

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Re: Where does meaning come from?

Postby encode_decode » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:23 am

    Contemplation . . .

    Gamer wrote:Meaning is the golden naïveté. It is something you build with metaphor, with your feet in the clouds. Meaning's yield is emotion, which is a song a lute makes when the blind wind blows through. Meaning is a dream; a conversation you have with the universe that only you can hear, in that massless phantom zone where complete solitude and ultimate connection compete for your soul. In a Godless Universe; Meaning is God.

    The golden naïveté; I really like that. Thank you - this gives rise to much thought . . .

    Gamer wrote:Meaning's yield is emotion, which is a song a lute makes when the blind wind blows through.

    I have great affinity with this - whilst I believe that meaning comes in the form of logic as well.

    iambiguous wrote:Some words describe the world around us with precision. Why? Because we invented the words to describe with precision that which our senses and conscious minds seem able to agree on.

    Totally . . . Is it reality that our conscious mind is agreeing on?

    iambiguous wrote:So the crucial part here is the extent to which what we construe words to mean in any particular context is able to be demonstrated to others as the meaning which they must share in turn. If they wish to be thought of as rational/reasonable.

    I would also add emotional to this list with rational/reasonable.

    I am loving the contrast on display . . . much to ponder . . . Meaning then as an expression to yield emotion and sagacious resolve.

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      Re: Where does meaning come from?

      Postby Gamer » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:32 pm

      I have great affinity with this - whilst I believe that meaning comes in the form of logic as well.


      As do I, but I think of it more as balance, not logic.

      Each string of the lute vibrates on a certain frequency, a certain pitch, with certain intervals.
      So even though the blind wind plays on the strings of perception, the natural set of the strings
      is a Pythagorean equation. The logic is embedded in the structure.

      Such that when the wind blows, the notes often harmonize.

      But we also know that we can find meaning in atonal music.

      This is the true essence of golden naivete.

      When you are able to construct meaning without the need for external coherence.

      When you are willing and able to build – and live – in worlds built from microtones.
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      Re: Where does meaning come from?

      Postby encode_decode » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:26 am

        Points of interest . . . points of expansion . . .

        Whilst I believe that meaning comes in the form of logic as well, I still find emotion at times more expressive of meaning.

        Gamer wrote:As do I, but I think of it more as balance, not logic.

        I am inclined to agree with a concept of balance - I have found that the expression of emotion can be rational too . . .

        Gamer wrote:But we also know that we can find meaning in atonal music.

        Nearly meditative meaning . . . an expansion of meaning . . . I have found a similar thing with poetry . . .

        As you say in another way: When you are able to construct meaning without the need for external coherence.
        I am still in contemplation on what else you have written . . .

        iambiguous wrote:
        surreptitious57 wrote:The ability to think in abstract terms will guarantee paradoxes given enough time simply because of the sheer scale of possibilities.

        That is because the gap between words and worlds will always be either large or small.

        Some words describe the world around us with precision. Why? Because we invented the words to describe with precision that which our senses and conscious minds seem able to agree on.

        We often have a pseudo-reality that our conscious mind seems able to agree on. This could add to the explanation of the occurrence of paradoxes . . . I doubt that is what either of you are saying entirely though. I still think the scale of the gap is where imagination comes in . . .
        . . . being able to construct new meaning next to reality . . . being able to make the imagining real . . .

        Some Guy in History wrote:For the new to be built, we must first deconstruct the old. To build directly on top would not create a very firm foundation. To deconstruct the old, this has to be done while it all still stands and leave the old still intact to some degree to prepare the building of the new, which is the rebuilding of all the new that has come while the oldest still stands and to bring the old into the new and make it new again while making new seem older than it is to jumpstart our own travels forward again as a species. In this, there is meaning. In this, there is even the personal meanings of rebuilding contact, rebuilding communities, rebuilding friendships; and the forging of new. This is the meaning of crafting for ourselves a new lease on life. Where does meaning come from? All around and often through whatever source we will listen to.

        In this there is a great amount of meaning . . . Id est there is meaning in everything and its contrasts . . .
        . . . I like the way you have written it . . . rather Socratic . . . new lease on life . . .

        Socrates wrote:The secret of change is to focus all your energy, not fighting the old, but on building the new.

        Old meaning meets the new to create synergy . . . and greater meaning . . . and like you stated - where does meaning come from? All around and often through whatever source we will listen to; to me could also include finding meaning in music, culture, poetry, society, science and philosophy as well as more . . .
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          Re: Where does meaning come from?

          Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:29 pm

          encode_decode,


          Two questions that come to mind:

          ► How do you derive meaning in your life?

          ► What gives your life meaning?

          And something like the original question: where do you think meaning comes from?


          First of all, I must tell you how very much I am enjoying sitting in your Zen garden, surrounded by all of this beauty, this silence and stillness. It almost seems a shame for us to speak in here at all.
          Oh, I would appreciate it if you could offer me a nice tall glass of lemonade with lots and lots of ice~ if you please.

          How does one derive meaning in/from their life?

          I recently saw the move Dunkirk. What an awesome movie it was. I literally sat on the edge of my seat during most of it. I don't really want to give anything away since some may want to see it. It IS a movie well worth the seeing. But that is my perspective.

          There was a scene in the movie where 700 non-military private ships (that was the reality though I don't think we see all those ships on the screen) went out...

          When 400,000 men couldn’t get home, home came for them

          It was absolutely awe-inspiring and heartrending. My heart was in my throat. The tears would just not stop coming. Meaning for me was within those tears.

          You asked how does one derive meaning in one's life? What gives your life meaning?

          These were people from all walks of life, down to a boy of about age 14, 15..
          They came for these men, to rescue them.
          They put their lives at risk. Courage under fire is one of the most meaningful, beautiful things in the world to me. I also experienced it with the movie Hacksaw Ridge.

          A scene of such human solidarity brought on as a result of all of these people coming together is meaningful and beautiful to see.
          Perseverance and the will to move forward DESPITE all danger (and oh was there ever danger) obstacles and odds in order to save other human beings is something beautiful and meaningful to see.
          You could see many of the people standing on their boats. Their faces, registering such looks of determination and quiet courage, to get to those men ~~ were meaningful and beautiful to see and more than that, to experience.

          I cried me a river. This was a moment when humanity was at their very best and a moment where I felt so proud to be a human being. There can be great meaning in that. That is when Life reaches to the heights even though there was also great tragedy seen there.

          I think that what it is, or may be, which allows us to derive/experience such *real* meaningfulness in life are the other opposite-sides- of- the- coin, meaninglessness moments, moments when we are or may be deeply ashamed to call ourselves human, moments which show us man's great inhumanity to man. I think that without the One, we could not experience the Other so profoundly.

          William James said that the greatest use of life is to SPEND it for that which will outlast it. That is really something to ponder, I think.
          Moments like this, this movie, or Hacksaw Ridge, or other real and vital moments in history when human beings have stood together in solidarity, to show such inter-connectedness, to save relative strangers rather than to destroy them ~~ are moments which bring profound meaning, *real* meaning into Life.

          Sorry for my redundancy.
          SAPERE AUDE!


          If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


          What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

          Thomas Nagel


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          Re: Where does meaning come from?

          Postby iambiguous » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:13 pm

          encode_decode wrote:
          iambiguous wrote:So the crucial part here is the extent to which what we construe words to mean in any particular context is able to be demonstrated to others as the meaning which they must share in turn. If they wish to be thought of as rational/reasonable.

          I would also add emotional to this list with rational/reasonable.


          Emotion is tricky. Why? Because it too is a complex intertwining of genes and memes. Embedded along with reason in the even more primative components of the brain.

          This part:

          The primary structures within the limbic system include the amygdala, hippocampus, thalamus, hypothalamus, basal ganglia, and cingulate gyrus. The amygdala is the emotion center of the brain, while the hippocampus plays an essential role in the formation of new memories about past experiences.

          Now, there are actually folks here [I call them objectivists] who insist they have a full understanding of all of this. Not only are they able to encompass the either/or world for us but are in turn able to grasp the one and the only rational -- natural -- manner in which comprehend disputes that arise as a result of conflicting reactions to human behaviors out in the is/ought world.

          Just don't ask them to bring an analysis like this...

          Gamer wrote:Meaning is the golden naïveté. It is something you build with metaphor, with your feet in the clouds. Meaning's yield is emotion, which is a song a lute makes when the blind wind blows through. Meaning is a dream; a conversation you have with the universe that only you can hear, in that massless phantom zone where complete solitude and ultimate connection compete for your soul. In a Godless Universe; Meaning is God.


          ...out into the world of conflicting human behaviors.

          After all, how would one go about demonstrating to others that they have an obligation as rational human beings to share the meaning assigned to the words in this ponderous intellectual contraption?
          He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

          Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
          Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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          Re: Where does meaning come from?

          Postby encode_decode » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:48 pm

            James

            I am curious as to what you mean when you say:

            James S Saint wrote:Discover the objective truth of what you are and from there the meaning of your life will spring.

            How is it that one can discover the objective truth of what one is? I imagine this can only be done via reference . . .

            Now if this can be done . . . how is it that the meaning of ones life would spring from the objective truth?

            I am interested in an answer to this.

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              Re: Where does meaning come from?

              Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:53 pm

              encode_decode wrote:
                James

                I am curious as to what you mean when you say:

                James S Saint wrote:Discover the objective truth of what you are and from there the meaning of your life will spring.

                How is it that one can discover the objective truth of what one is? I imagine this can only be done via reference . . .

                How does one discover objective truth about anything?

                encode_decode wrote:Now if this can be done . . . how is it that the meaning of ones life would spring from the objective truth?

                Try it and "discover the objective truth" about it. 8)
                Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
                Else
                From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

                The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

                You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
                The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
                It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
                As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

                Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
                Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

                The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
                .
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                Re: Where does meaning come from?

                Postby gib » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:14 pm

                Hey encode,

                Would I be laughed at or dismissed if I said meaning is in everything? That meaning is the foundation for things to exist?

                My belief is that all reality is fundamentally information. In human terms, it is information expressed as matter. The question for me is: how to make meaning comprehensible? Many people look out at the universe and fail to find meaning--it all looks arbitrary and accidental, without purpose, without aim--and become nihilistic. But how would you distinguish true meaninglessness from incomprehensible meaning? They would look the same. Incomprehensible meaning is like hearing a foreign language: you know it means something but you can't tell the difference between that and random meaningless babbling?
                My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

                It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                - surreptitious75

                The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                - encode_decode

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                Re: Where does meaning come from?

                Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:32 pm

                gib wrote:Would I be laughed at or dismissed if I said meaning is in everything? That meaning is the foundation for things to exist?

                Yeah. 8)
                Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
                Else
                From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

                The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

                You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
                The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
                It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
                As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

                Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
                Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

                The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
                .
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                Re: Where does meaning come from?

                Postby gib » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:33 pm

                James S Saint wrote:
                gib wrote:Would I be laughed at or dismissed if I said meaning is in everything? That meaning is the foundation for things to exist?

                Yeah. 8)


                Too late.
                My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

                It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                - surreptitious75

                The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                - encode_decode

                Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
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                Re: Where does meaning come from?

                Postby encode_decode » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:27 am

                  gib

                  ► I am going to answer your post twice - this time around I will answer my favorite part . . . and . . .
                  ► . . . next time around I will answer the bit relating to reality being information expressed as matter.
                  ► I have devised an artificial method that derives meaning from analogy - more on that at a later date.

                  gib wrote:Too late.

                  Never . . . not when it comes to meaning . . . maybe when it comes to being late for work . . .

                  gib wrote:Would I be laughed at or dismissed if I said meaning is in everything?

                  Yeah . . . some people would laugh at you and others would dismiss you and there are those that would do both . . .
                  . . . I am not in any three of those categories however . . .

                  I actually really like your post.

                  gib wrote:That meaning is the foundation for things to exist?

                  This will require a little more mental effort on my part - but I will get back to you about it.
                  I do believe however, that at the very least, you have partially answered it already.

                  gib wrote:My belief is that all reality is fundamentally information. In human terms, it is information expressed as matter.

                  Yes, I have a similar view regarding reality and information - information expressed as matter is something I will put more thought into - making sure to consider the energy side of the equation.

                  gib wrote:The question for me is: how to make meaning comprehensible? Many people look out at the universe and fail to find meaning--it all looks arbitrary and accidental, without purpose, without aim--and become nihilistic.

                  Now this is where we get near to my favorite part of your post . . .

                  gib wrote:But how would you distinguish true meaninglessness from incomprehensible meaning? They would look the same.

                  I agree.

                  gib wrote:Incomprehensible meaning is like hearing a foreign language:

                    ► You know it means something but you can't tell the difference between that and random meaningless babbling.

                  And there it is . . . my favorite part of your post . . . I am totally inclined to agree.

                  For the example you gave to make a contrast between what we perceive as meaning and meaning that otherwise exists even when we do not see it . . .
                  . . . or in the case of your example . . . hear it . . . really tells us something about meaning.

                  =D>
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                    It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                    (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                    But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                    - which is to say there is always meaning.

                    (gib - 2017)

                    Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
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                    Re: Where does meaning come from?

                    Postby encode_decode » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:16 pm

                      Arcturus Descending

                      The sun is gently shining with a golden glow and there are a only a few large white clouds in the sky - it is mid afternoon and the temperature is perfect - high above is an Eagle circling . . . Mr List is contemplating the Koi Pond as the Nishikigoi effortlessly move through the water . . .

                      All the trees surrounding the garden are still - the atmosphere is serene and the air is pure and feels refreshing with each breath . . .

                      Arcturus Descending wrote:First of all, I must tell you how very much I am enjoying sitting in your Zen garden, surrounded by all of this beauty, this silence and stillness. It almost seems a shame for us to speak in here at all. Oh, I would appreciate it if you could offer me a nice tall glass of lemonade with lots and lots of ice ~ if you please.

                      You are welcome to remain silent for a while and let your thoughts take in meaning from the surrounds - just to be immersed in tranquil reflection . . . Mr List gently walks off to prepare the lemonade . . . ten minutes later he returns with a tray holding three tall glasses of fresh lemonade each containing a generous amount of ice . . . he smiles and returns to watch the Nishikigoi float along in their own world . . .

                      Your thoughts move over a quiet, almost silent internal dialogue as you sip your lemonade:

                        Meaning for me was within those tears . . . one of the most meaningful, beautiful things in the world to me.

                      I only just watched Hacksaw Ridge the other day for the first time . . . I was pretty much engrossed the whole way through . . . Great movie. It sounds like I might have to give Dunkirk a viewing to find out what you mean . . .

                      I will say that interacting with other people in general brings a lot of meaning to my life . . . sometimes inspiring and sometimes just meaningful in smaller ways.

                      - I think too that meaning can come from a smile -

                      :D
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                        Re: Where does meaning come from?

                        Postby gib » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:38 am

                        encode_decode wrote:gib

                        ► I am going to answer your post twice - this time around I will answer my favorite part . . . and . . .
                        ► . . . next time around I will answer the bit relating to reality being information expressed as matter.
                        ► I have devised an artificial method that derives meaning from analogy - more on that at a later date.


                        Has anyone told you you're very structured? :lol:

                        encode_decode wrote:
                        gib wrote:Would I be laughed at or dismissed if I said meaning is in everything?

                        Yeah . . . some people would laugh at you and others would dismiss you and there are those that would do both . . .
                        . . . I am not in any three of those categories however . . .

                        I actually really like your post.


                        Thank you! :) The feeling goes both ways. I really enjoy when two strangers can have a civilized exchange online. It gives both parties a chance to express themselves to the wider world.

                        encode_decode wrote:
                        gib wrote:That meaning is the foundation for things to exist?

                        This will require a little more mental effort on my part - but I will get back to you about it.
                        I do believe however, that at the very least, you have partially answered it already.


                        It's my metaphysics of consciousness. It's a whole Pandora's box of philosophy.

                        encode_decode wrote:
                        gib wrote:My belief is that all reality is fundamentally information. In human terms, it is information expressed as matter.

                        Yes, I have a similar view regarding reality and information - information expressed as matter is something I will put more thought into - making sure to consider the energy side of the equation.


                        Think of it in terms of sensation. Our sensations are essentially information. What they tell us is: there's matter.

                        There's also energy, of course, and physicists now-a-days tell us they're the same thing, but I'm a subjectivist (a specific approach to idealism). While that doesn't mean I disagree with science, I don't think science represents the "natural" or "intuitive" view of man. I think to get at the natural/intuitive view of man, one must appeal to one's subjective experiences. What we can glean about the world by appeal to our subjective experiences is that it seems to be made of objects--macroscopic sized objects around the order of chair, trees, TVs, human beings--that seems to be what's naturally "given" to us (or told to us if you buy my reality-qua-information spin). Energy's in there too, of course, but we experience energy as objects doing things, or changing, or perhaps as properties of objects, like light or heat, but objects are the basic units of our world, at least with respect to human subjective experience.

                        encode_decode wrote:
                        gib wrote:The question for me is: how to make meaning comprehensible? Many people look out at the universe and fail to find meaning--it all looks arbitrary and accidental, without purpose, without aim--and become nihilistic.

                        Now this is where we get near to my favorite part of your post . . .

                        gib wrote:But how would you distinguish true meaninglessness from incomprehensible meaning? They would look the same.

                        I agree.

                        gib wrote:Incomprehensible meaning is like hearing a foreign language:

                        Drum roll please. :D

                          ► You know it means something but you can't tell the difference between that and random meaningless babbling.

                        And there it is . . . my favorite part of your post . . . I am totally inclined to agree.


                        Well, analogies are very powerful for getting a point across. I'm glad my use of them can make someone's day. :lol: Thank you!

                        encode_decode wrote:For the example you gave to make a contrast between what we perceive as meaning and meaning that otherwise exists even when we do not see it . . .
                        . . . or in the case of your example . . . hear it . . . really tells us something about meaning.

                        =D>


                        I certainly think so. I think it requires a bit of hubris to think that where you can't find meaning there is none. It's even more challenging when the meaning is incomprehensible--it means you're not only failing to find meaning but can't find it even if it's right in front of you.
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                        It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                        Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                        - surreptitious75

                        The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                        - encode_decode

                        Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
                        - Rick Sanchez
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                        Re: Where does meaning come from?

                        Postby Arminius » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:18 am

                        "Meaning“ is the central concept of semantics which is one of the most important subdiscipline of linguistics. The semantical research can be done in a synchronic and in a diachronic (etymological) way. So meaning has a history too. Animals do not reall know that a certain phenomenenon has a meaning; but they know the meaning of some phenomenons, because they have experienced them. So one has to have something like the human language in which one can analyse sound (phonemes) and the smalles forms with a meaning (morphemes), then words, sentences, texts.

                        Just observe little children when they learn the language of their parents or family. They learn that certain speech-forms, thus lingusitic forms, have certain meanings, either inward or outward. If these meanings are inward, then they are part of the language itself; and if they are outward, then they are part of both the language and the environment. So meanings can change (see also above: diachronic [etymological]), are in permanent contact with the environment of any language. The inward located meanings have a more subjective or "individual“ character, and the outward located meanings have a more objective character, and both are in permanent contact.
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                        Re: Where does meaning come from?

                        Postby gib » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:21 am

                        Arminius wrote:They learn that certain speech-forms, thus lingusitic forms, have certain meanings, either inward or outward. If these meanings are inward, then they are part of the language itself; and if they are outward, then they are part of both the language and the environment.


                        Can you give an example of inward meaning and outward meaning? Is it the same difference as between mental and physical? Or is it that inward meaning is speech-forms that come packaged with the language itself (so to speak)--words like "and" or "the" or because"--whereas outward meaning is speech-forms that are subsumed into language to serve the function of denoting or identifying things in the environment--words like "chair" or "cloud" or "shoe"?
                        My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

                        It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                        Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                        - surreptitious75

                        The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                        - encode_decode

                        Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
                        - Rick Sanchez
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                        Re: Where does meaning come from?

                        Postby Lump » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:34 am

                        encode_decode wrote:Where does meaning come from?
                        From cognitive abilities, if one lacks cognitive abilities, one can't comprehend much and are per definition retarded.
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                        Re: Where does meaning come from?

                        Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:23 pm

                        Lump wrote:
                        encode_decode wrote:Where does meaning come from?
                        From cognitive abilities, if one lacks cognitive abilities, one can't comprehend much and are per definition retarded.


                        Do cognitive abilities include qualia to you?
                        SAPERE AUDE!


                        If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


                        What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

                        Thomas Nagel


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                        Re: Where does meaning come from?

                        Postby encode_decode » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:58 pm

                          Lump

                          I understand what you have written . . . I would have to intuitively say that this is definitely part of the truth . . .

                          Lump wrote:
                          encode_decode wrote:Where does meaning come from?
                          From cognitive abilities, if one lacks cognitive abilities, one can't comprehend much and are per definition retarded.

                          . . . there are however a few caveats.

                          Here are three things to consider . . . let us employ analogy to illustrate . . .

                          1 ► If a tree fell in the woods, and nobody was around to hear it, did the tree really fall?

                          2 ► If a person(lets call him Bob) is sitting in a stadium(which is filled to capacity) - and bob has no cognitive abilities - is the stadium really filled to capacity?

                          3 ► Incomprehensible meaning is like hearing a foreign language:
                            You know it means something but you can't tell the difference between that and random meaningless babbling.
                            gib(2017)

                          You could say that each of us only receives an incomplete puzzle to work with when it comes to meaning . . . meaning being the puzzle.

                          A friend of mine once wrote:Meaning to anything comes when it is realized the answer is before the question. If not true, how then could an answer ever be found? which is to say, when one finds themselves without questions, there is no meaning to discover or expand, for meaning is always that aha moment.

                          You are saying in a way: meaning always boils down to individual perception of comprehensive experience . . .

                          . . . I am saying: that when it does not boil down to individual perception, meaning still exists . . .

                          . . . to say otherwise, I would surmise, is to say that others do not exist . . .

                          . . . that is to suppose that something is true without having evidence to confirm it.

                          So where does that leave us? Well, your guess is as good as mine . . . mind.
                            Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                            It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                            (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                            But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                            - which is to say there is always meaning.

                            (gib - 2017)

                            Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                            (Myself - 2017)
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                            Re: Where does meaning come from?

                            Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:04 pm

                            encode_decode

                            Arcturus Descending

                            Yes?

                            The sun is gently shining with a golden glow and there are a only a few large white clouds in the sky - it is mid afternoon and the temperature is perfect - high above is an Eagle circling . . . Mr List is contemplating the Koi Pond as the Nishikigoi effortlessly move through the water . . .


                            That is a perfect scene to me, encode_decode. I have experienced that kind of day except for the Eagle. That would have been a rare day. I am also glad that the sun was *gently* shining.
                            Mr. List, being that I am a skeptic, would I be stepping out on some kind of silly limb to ask you if you do have a Zen Garden? No reason why you couldn't.

                            All the trees surrounding the garden are still - the atmosphere is serene and the air is pure and feels refreshing with each breath . . .


                            Why are the trees still? Are they afraid to breathe for fear of disturbing the perfect moment?
                            Why are the trees still? Have you commanded them not to dance?


                            You are welcome to remain silent for a while and let your thoughts take in meaning from the surrounds - just to be immersed in tranquil reflection . . .


                            Ah, but this is a non-thinking moment. I will let something else absorb the meaning.
                            :-$

                            Mr List gently walks off to prepare the lemonade . . .


                            What are you wearing on your feet?

                            ten minutes later he returns with a tray holding three tall glasses of fresh lemonade each containing a generous amount of ice . . . he smiles and returns to watch the Nishikigoi float along in their own world . . .


                            Three tall glasses? Are we expecting company or are you generously giving me two glasses?
                            I wonder how the koi experience their life? Their movement?

                            Your thoughts move over a quiet, almost silent internal dialogue as you sip your lemonade:


                            What are my thoughts in this moment? Or perhaps they were about the koi or simply a silent moment of contemplation ~ koi swimming within my mind.

                              Meaning for me was within those tears . . . one of the most meaningful, beautiful things in the world to me.

                            I only just watched Hacksaw Ridge the other day for the first time . . . I was pretty much engrossed the whole way through . . . Great movie. It sounds like I might have to give Dunkirk a viewing to find out what you mean
                            . . .

                            Hacksaw Ridge can be a lesson in not judging things and people by appearance. Here was this conscientious objector who was taken for a coward though he wanted to serve his country but in his own way. He was beaten because people were not capable of seeing beyond the surface. He later ...well, you know the story but perhaps others might want to see it.

                            Yes, Dunkirk is certainly well worth seeing. I love movies which are larger than life.


                            I will say that interacting with other people in general brings a lot of meaning to my life . . . sometimes inspiring and sometimes just meaningful in smaller ways.

                            Yes, for many, it would have to be that way. It is for me too. We are social creatures. I think that without trying, that meaning just slips in.
                            But I do not believe that it can be the same with any and all.
                            Perhaps Maxwell could explain that.


                            - I think too that meaning can come from a smile -

                            Yes, like the meaning which comes from a sunny day after we have experienced days of rain - though I love the rain.
                            A smile can be like a burst of the sun's rays.
                            SAPERE AUDE!


                            If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


                            What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

                            Thomas Nagel


                            I learn as I write!
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                            Re: Where does meaning come from?

                            Postby Arminius » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:34 pm

                            gib wrote:
                            Arminius wrote:They learn that certain speech-forms, thus lingusitic forms, have certain meanings, either inward or outward. If these meanings are inward, then they are part of the language itself; and if they are outward, then they are part of both the language and the environment.

                            Can you give an example of inward meaning and outward meaning? Is it the same difference as between mental and physical? Or is it that inward meaning is speech-forms that come packaged with the language itself (so to speak)--words like "and" or "the" or because"--whereas outward meaning is speech-forms that are subsumed into language to serve the function of denoting or identifying things in the environment--words like "chair" or "cloud" or "shoe"?

                            Everything that is relevant to the one who is learning a language can be used as an example here. Thus: Everything. A tree for example becomes a semantical meaning as an inward meaning when the linguistic form "tree" is internalized (learned).

                            By "inward meanings“ I mean here in my example the forms that have already been internalized by the child, either incorrectly, then the child has to learn more, or correctly, then the child can use them for the next steps of learning. By "outward meaning“ I mean here in my example the forms that are new for the child, thus have not already been internalized by the child, are just outwards in the environment of the child. So the linguistic forms and their meanings inside the body (brain) of the child become firmer and more and more (like an inventory of a company / corporation for example), whereas the linguistic forms and their meanings outside the body (brain) of the child (and still inside the bodies [brains] of the child's parents for example) become less and less. At last, when the language is almost (almost!) acquired, the child (about 3 years old) could already go to school, if there was not the other language precondition that must be fulfilled: the language of writing / reading (which is a skill the child is not capable of before the age of 5 years).

                            What I mainly wanted to say in my post above is that there is already meaning in the language before one learns this meaning. So we learn a language that has already been learned by others. But if you observe a young child who is learning the parental language, then you can ascertain how pre-linguistic meanings become linguistic meanings. Everything becomes more and more abstract and spiritual (later even philosophical and mathematical). That is a huge advantage.
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                            Re: Where does meaning come from?

                            Postby Dan~ » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:22 am

                            Thank you for your post.

                            I equate meaning to core qualities.

                            The core is like the existential everything of a being.
                            It has all kinds of temporary and changing aspects,
                            as well as repeating or old aspects.
                            Meaning can be found in the mental aspect of the existential core.
                            Meaning is like an alchemical biproduct.
                            A biological rare chemical complex.

                            That is the closest thing to an accurate description that ive got.

                            It would be like a forest supporting the life of monkeys.
                            In this case, the man suppports the life of meanings as memes.

                            Do you see what i mean?
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                            Re: Where does meaning come from?

                            Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:29 pm

                              iambiguous

                              What you have to say seems like it is interesting - I need a little clarification so I can understand it better. Apologies in advance.

                              iambiguous wrote:1. Emotion is tricky. Why? Because it too is a complex intertwining of genes and memes.
                              2. Embedded along with reason in the even more primitive components of the brain.

                              1. I agree that emotion is tricky. Do you think cognition is not relevant to emotions? How do you see genes affecting emotions?
                              2. Do you think that reason only takes place in the primitive components of the brain?

                              I agree that memes are a part of our emotions. I also think that emotions are used against people in a political manner.

                              iambiguous wrote:Now, there are actually folks here [I call them objectivists] who insist they have a full understanding of all of this. Not only are they able to encompass the either/or world for us but are in turn able to grasp the one and the only rational -- natural -- manner in which comprehend disputes that arise as a result of conflicting reactions to human behaviors out in the is/ought world.

                              Could you possibly give me a brief description of either/or and is/ought in the way you are using it here? Maybe you could provide a link to something that would help me understand it better . . . I am only guessing that you are not an objectivist - is that correct? I am purely curious.

                              Gamer wrote:Meaning is the golden naïveté. It is something you build with metaphor, with your feet in the clouds. Meaning's yield is emotion, which is a song a lute makes when the blind wind blows through. Meaning is a dream; a conversation you have with the universe that only you can hear, in that massless phantom zone where complete solitude and ultimate connection compete for your soul. In a Godless Universe; Meaning is God.

                              To which you asked me a question as follows:

                              iambiguous wrote:After all, how would one go about demonstrating to others that they have an obligation as rational human beings to share the meaning assigned to the words in this ponderous intellectual contraption?

                              I am not too sure about the obligation as such but I could demonstrate the part where Gamer speaks of metaphor. Do you have any ideas how? I would like to learn.

                              I am interested in reading more of your thoughts iambiguous. Hopefully I do not cause any inconvenience.
                                  Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                  It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                  (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                  But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                  - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                  (gib - 2017)

                                  Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                  (Myself - 2017)
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                                  Re: Where does meaning come from?

                                  Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:32 pm

                                  James S Saint wrote:

                                  Discover the objective truth of what you are and from there the meaning of your life will spring



                                  I was going to follow the pattern which is a part of me at times well, often actually, in responding to posts ~~ giving my own answer. But I decided to adhere to the Socratic method which is clearly not a part of me. lol. Don't expect that too often.

                                  You have just left the student in the mighty forest. Where does he/she go from there? 8-[

                                  So, what are you saying here, James?
                                  How do we go about accomplishing this great feat?
                                  What is our guiding light to get there?
                                  Is there any one specific thing (or something which cannot be left out) which must be used in order to do this?
                                  SAPERE AUDE!


                                  If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


                                  What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

                                  Thomas Nagel


                                  I learn as I write!
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                                  Re: Where does meaning come from?

                                  Postby iambiguous » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:07 pm

                                  encode_decode wrote:
                                  iambiguous wrote:1. Emotion is tricky. Why? Because it too is a complex intertwining of genes and memes.
                                  2. Embedded along with reason in the even more primitive components of the brain.

                                  1. I agree that emotion is tricky. Do you think cognition is not relevant to emotions? How do you see genes affecting emotions?
                                  2. Do you think that reason only takes place in the primitive components of the brain?


                                  With the evolution of life on earth, the human brain came to embody the capacity to reason and to feel. They are both intertwined in an enormously complex interaction between genes [biological imperatives] and memes [social, political and economic narratives]. These narratives are rooted historically, cuturally and experientially both within and between particular communities of men and women sharing or not sharing particular sets of experiences.

                                  In other words, you tell me: in any specific context where does reasoning end and feeling begin? Where does "I" end and "we" begin? Is there a way to determine this such that so-called "rational human beings" can come to grasp how one ought to behave in any particular context?

                                  I don't think so.


                                  iambiguous wrote:Now, there are actually folks here [I call them objectivists] who insist they have a full understanding of all of this. Not only are they able to encompass the either/or world for us but are in turn able to grasp the one and the only rational -- natural -- manner in which comprehend disputes that arise as a result of conflicting reactions to human behaviors out in the is/ought world.

                                  encode_decode wrote:Could you possibly give me a brief description of either/or and is/ought in the way you are using it here? Maybe you could provide a link to something that would help me understand it better . . . I am only guessing that you are not an objectivist - is that correct? I am purely curious.


                                  Well, an example I like to use revolves around something like this:

                                  1] Is Donald Trump the president of the United States? Either he is or he is not. In other words, unless our sense of reality is just an illusion rooted in solipsism or in a sim world or in a demonic dream, we are able to establish that in fact Donald Trump is the president of the United States. This is true objectively for all of us. Though, sure, subjectively, particular individuals may say that he is not. What then becomes important is the extent to which those who say that he is are able to demonstrate that this is true.

                                  2] Donald Trump is doing a superb job as president of the Unitied States. Is this either true or not true? Is this something that can in fact be demonstrated as true objectively for all of us?

                                  For those [the political objectivists] who insist that he either is or is not doing a superb job, I challenge them to demonstrate this. That is, to establish this objectively such that the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein, conflicting goods and political economy in this is/ought world is shown to be unreasonable.
                                  He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

                                  Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
                                  Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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