Reality - Version 0.1

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Re: Reality - Version 0.1

Postby encode_decode » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:16 pm

Maybe the only thing we can say with certainty is that we exist.

:-k
    Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

    It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
    (Anomaly654 - 2017)

    But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
    - which is to say there is always meaning.

    (gib - 2017)

    Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
    (Myself - 2017)
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    Re: Reality - Version 0.1

    Postby WendyDarling » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:18 pm

    encode_decode wrote:Maybe the only thing we can say with certainty is that we exist.

    :-k

    Non-existence is a fantasy.
    I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

    I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

    Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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    Re: Reality - Version 0.1

    Postby encode_decode » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:20 pm

    WendyDarling wrote:
    encode_decode wrote:Maybe the only thing we can say with certainty is that we exist.

    :-k

    Non-existence is a fantasy.

    Exactly.
      Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

      It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
      (Anomaly654 - 2017)

      But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
      - which is to say there is always meaning.

      (gib - 2017)

      Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
      (Myself - 2017)
      User avatar
      encode_decode
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      Re: Reality - Version 0.1

      Postby WendyDarling » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:26 pm

      Wow, that was too easy! :-k What are you up to? :evilfun: :lol:
      I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

      I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

      Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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      Re: Reality - Version 0.1

      Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:05 am

        WendyDarling

        I do believe we were already agreeing on existence - I suggested that the only thing we can say with certainty is that we exist - you suggested that non-existence is a fantasy. There are many aspects of existence that we already agree on WendyDarling.

        WendyDarling wrote:Wow, that was too easy! :-k What are you up to? :evilfun: :lol:

        I have been spending some time looking around ILP, reading many different threads and posts. I have become quite interested in the differing points of view that people have. The human mind is breathtaking when I consider the diversity of imaginings possible that it can collectively give us.

        The mind reminds me of the ancient Chinese game, Go. Go has more possibilities than the number of atoms in the visible universe. That tells me that the mind has many more possibilities - if I am calculating this correctly then the mind is capable of devising more versions of reality than the total number of atoms in the visible universe.

        Staggering - and that is just the versions of reality . . . Now I am contemplating whether non-reality is also fantasy . . .

        That is what I have been up to on ILP.

        Otherwise I have been digging deeper into the complexities of emotions and logic - fun stuff . . . :lol:

        That was of course prior to responding to you.

        :D

        How about you? What are you up to? :evilfun: :lol:
          Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

          It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
          (Anomaly654 - 2017)

          But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
          - which is to say there is always meaning.

          (gib - 2017)

          Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
          (Myself - 2017)
          User avatar
          encode_decode
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          Re: Reality - Version 0.1

          Postby James S Saint » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:36 am

          encode_decode wrote:Maybe the only thing we can say with certainty is that we exist.

          :-k

          But then, what does it mean "to exist"?
          Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
          Else
          From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

          The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

          You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
          The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
          It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
          As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

          Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
          Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

          The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
          .
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          Re: Reality - Version 0.1

          Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:17 am

            James

            I think that what it means to exist, is to have objective reality, to occur, to be affected by the surrounding existence and to affect the surrounding existence.

            James S Saint wrote:
            encode_decode wrote:Maybe the only thing we can say with certainty is that we exist.

            :-k

            But then, what does it mean "to exist"?

            At a more abstract level: To consume and be consumed. Your constituents are permanent.

            My head is pounding - so slap me silly if you have to, and correct me if I am mistaken.

            Non-existence is but a shallow concept . . .
              Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

              It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
              (Anomaly654 - 2017)

              But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
              - which is to say there is always meaning.

              (gib - 2017)

              Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
              (Myself - 2017)
              User avatar
              encode_decode
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              Re: Reality - Version 0.1

              Postby James S Saint » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:31 am

              encode_decode wrote:Maybe the only thing we can say with certainty is that we exist.
              encode_decode wrote:to exist - to be affected by the surrounding existence and to affect the surrounding existence.

              In which case, isn't it also certainly true that something else exists besides us, "surrounding us"?
              That makes two. 8)
              Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
              Else
              From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

              The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

              You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
              The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
              It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
              As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

              Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
              Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

              The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
              .
              James S Saint
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              Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

              Re: Reality - Version 0.1

              Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:37 am

                James

                Part of what I said previously is summed up in your signature:

                The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".

                An unchanging situation is a fantasy.

                James S Saint wrote:
                encode_decode wrote:Maybe the only thing we can say with certainty is that we exist.
                encode_decode wrote:to exist - to be affected by the surrounding existence and to affect the surrounding existence.

                In which case, isn't it also certainly true that something else exists besides us, "surrounding us"?
                That makes two. 8)

                Yes it is certain that something else exists besides us - yet another truth. What it is that we are a part of, surrounds us and also exists - to put it simply.

                To neatly summarize:

                  1. The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is . . .
                  . . . "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
                  2. It is a certainty that we exist.
                  3. To exist is to be affected by the surrounding existence and to affect the surrounding existence.
                  4. What it is that we are a part of, surrounds us and also exists . . .
                  . . . "We are inseparable from that which surrounds us".
                I believe that to say that we can be separate from that which surrounds us is yet another shallow concept.

                What I have learnt from you among other things is that infinite homogeneity cannot exist - each point in space has the potential to affect - anything without physical affect cannot physically exist. Hopefully I got those three things right.

                I am happy enough with my answer to hit the submit button. I am not quite certain if it is the answer to your question though.
                  Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                  It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                  (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                  But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                  - which is to say there is always meaning.

                  (gib - 2017)

                  Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                  (Myself - 2017)
                  User avatar
                  encode_decode
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                  Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                  Postby James S Saint » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:09 am

                  The number of things that can be said with certainty is endless. 8)


                  .. the exact opposite of common rhetoric.
                  Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
                  Else
                  From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

                  The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

                  You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
                  The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
                  It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
                  As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

                  Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
                  Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

                  The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
                  .
                  James S Saint
                  ILP Legend
                   
                  Posts: 25775
                  Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

                  Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                  Postby WendyDarling » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:23 am

                  An unchanging situation is a fantasy.

                  I disagree if a constant is unchanging (pi or the speed of light), but I would also add that the unchanging situation that exists, exists among other unchanging situations, so variety (or the appearance of change) is found in the multiple of situations recognized as a whole. Is the path of a charged electron constant?
                  Last edited by WendyDarling on Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
                  I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

                  I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

                  Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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                  Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                  Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:31 am

                    James

                    I already believe:

                    James S Saint wrote:The number of things that can be said with certainty is endless. 8)

                    .. the exact opposite of common rhetoric.

                    That would be the meaning of: My ultimate goal is a clear truth in life - that could take some time to achieve.

                    The list of four in my previous post is far from complete - however I do not think it is a list that can be completed.

                    To obtain a clear truth in life, is not necessarily, to obtain the complete truth. Truth is endless.
                      Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                      It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                      (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                      But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                      - which is to say there is always meaning.

                      (gib - 2017)

                      Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                      (Myself - 2017)
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                      encode_decode
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                      Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                      Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:05 am

                        WendyDarling

                        It makes sense what you are saying because a situation is a set of circumstances in which one finds oneself . . .

                        . . . and includes the location and surroundings of a place.

                        WendyDarling wrote:
                        An unchanging situation is a fantasy.

                        I disagree if a constant is unchanging, but I would also add that the unchanging situation that exists, exists among other unchanging situations, so variety (or the appearance of change) is found in the multiple of situations.

                        You appear to be speaking of a snapshot of reality - like a photo - but I believe you are thinking on a deeper level than a simple photograph. The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is - there is a special place for constants - as you say the unchanging situation that exists, exists among other unchanging situations - to which I would reply the appearance of change is like a video - it occurs at x frames per second - and is found in the multiple of situations - one after the other - but a past situation - one singular situation cannot be changed and has fallen into the register of totality to become a mere fantasy - a memory - not to be retrieved nor changed, except through the residue of a perception - a perceived history.

                        Truth however exists in the here and now - and each frame containing truth also falls into the register of totality.

                        We are the infinite communicating with the infinite and the medium that we use to communicate is temporary.

                        As soon as I hit the submit button my written words do not suffice because they have become my past by the time you perceive them . . .
                        . . . that is: they have fallen into the register of my totality.

                        :-k
                          Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                          It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                          (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                          But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                          - which is to say there is always meaning.

                          (gib - 2017)

                          Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                          (Myself - 2017)
                          User avatar
                          encode_decode
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                          Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                          Postby WendyDarling » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:11 am

                          If eternity/infinity is constant and the Truth it represents is constant, the here and now would never change by its very nature, hence another constant that appears as you say a video of snapshots. Have you seen the discussion JSS and I are having in the Expulsion thread? The discussion here and there are related.
                          I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

                          I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

                          Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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                          Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                          Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:18 am

                            WendyDarling

                            WendyDarling wrote:If eternity/infinity is constant and the Truth it represents is constant, the here and now would never change by its very nature, hence another constant that appears as you say a video of snapshots. Have you seen the discussion JSS and I are having in the Expulsion thread? The discussion here and there are related.

                            Hmm . . . allow me to contemplate what you are saying here - I would be indebted to you for that. I have not seen the discussion in the Expulsion thread - would you be so kind as to provide a link for me? I would greatly appreciate it.

                            :D
                              Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                              It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                              (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                              But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                              - which is to say there is always meaning.

                              (gib - 2017)

                              Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                              (Myself - 2017)
                              User avatar
                              encode_decode
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                              Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                              Postby WendyDarling » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:21 am

                              Maybe I shouldn't :-? I just reread it and it's a bit...a lot...depressing. Sorry for being a downer 8-[ viewtopic.php?f=3&t=193156&start=25#p2674821
                              I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

                              I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

                              Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
                              User avatar
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                              Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                              Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:24 am

                                James

                                I have had even more time to think about this even further . . .

                                James S Saint wrote:I don't think that "affects ethics" is exactly the right terminology. RM:AO lays out an indisputable foundation for ethics. I seriously doubt that anything will ever exceed that foundation.

                                In rational thought, ethics is about the best rules concerning social interaction. And the "best rules" involve the goals of the individuals involved in the society. And those goals have no option but to be MIJOT (even though the participants might not be aware of it). RM:AO merely points out that in order to achieve that goal, the proper amount of give and take must be maintained for as long as possible and with all things considered (no small task, else would have been accomplished millennia ago).

                                I assert that, from how I understand what you have written, is that "best rules" are indeed variable.
                                  Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                  It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                  (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                  But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                  - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                  (gib - 2017)

                                  Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                  (Myself - 2017)
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                                  Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                                  Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:28 am

                                    WendyDarling

                                    Don't let it bother you . . .

                                    WendyDarling wrote:Maybe I shouldn't :-? I just reread it and it's a bit...a lot...depressing. Sorry for being a downer 8-[ http://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2674821

                                    . . . I can deal with downers. What is one persons trash is another persons treasure as they say - just a metaphor.

                                    We are mature adults around here.

                                    8-[
                                      Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                      It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                      (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                      But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                      - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                      (gib - 2017)

                                      Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                      (Myself - 2017)
                                      User avatar
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                                      Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                                      Postby WendyDarling » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:41 am

                                      This thread touches on some commonalities as well. viewtopic.php?f=25&t=171723#p2674810
                                      I'm still awaiting James' answers, impatiently awaiting #-o :evilfun: :lol: .
                                      I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

                                      I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

                                      Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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                                      Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                                      Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:49 am

                                        WendyDarling

                                        Thanks for this!

                                        WendyDarling wrote:This thread touches on some commonalities as well. viewtopic.php?f=25&t=171723#p2674810
                                        I'm still awaiting James' answers, impatiently awaiting #-o :evilfun: :lol: .

                                        Yeah, James is a busy guy. I will take a look at this also.

                                        Again thanks.

                                        :D
                                          Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                          It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                          (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                          But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                          - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                          (gib - 2017)

                                          Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                          (Myself - 2017)
                                          User avatar
                                          encode_decode
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                                          Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                                          Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:19 pm

                                            Arcturus Descending

                                            I have thought about your post. I am going to tackle your post in multiple parts - there seems to be a little to consider here.

                                            Arcturus Descending wrote:Can there ever really be a clear truth in life since truth can change, our perspectives or subjective truths, can change, scientific knowledge can change (yes or no?)

                                            Yes, there can be a clear truth in life. Since it is a yes or no question I will leave it here with only one exception . . .

                                            . . . I will add that there is a reason why I chose to answer this question first.

                                            :-k
                                              Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                              It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                              (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                              But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                              - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                              (gib - 2017)

                                              Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                              (Myself - 2017)
                                              User avatar
                                              encode_decode
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                                              Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                                              Postby WendyDarling » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:29 pm

                                              The concept always remains the same concept, but the physical memory eventually falls to entropy.

                                              When you refer to physical memory, are you referring to the deterioration of our biological body, predominantly the central nervous system?
                                              I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

                                              I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

                                              Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
                                              User avatar
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                                              Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                                              Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:49 pm

                                              WendyDarling wrote:
                                              The concept always remains the same concept, but the physical memory eventually falls to entropy.

                                              When you refer to physical memory, are you referring to the deterioration of our biological body, predominantly the central nervous system?

                                              I know James will correct me if I am wrong but I believe the answer to this is yes, the deterioration of our biological body including the central nervous system.

                                              The concept of who you are now - I am thinking with each instant stays the same.

                                              I am also under the impression that what James refers to as a spirit, you and I are calling a soul - to me they are just words - what they represent is important to me - however I think it is important to treat the words as they are appropriate to each philosophy.
                                                Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                                It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                                (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                                But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                                - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                                (gib - 2017)

                                                Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                                (Myself - 2017)
                                                User avatar
                                                encode_decode
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                                                Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                                                Postby WendyDarling » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:05 pm

                                                Since you gave me a yes, then I will add that the soul, the seat of consciousness, is a separate body which works in tandem with the biological body. Also, the eyes of the soul(your 3rd eye :evilfun: ) records memories, just as the eyes connected to the brain records memories. I'm not convinced that the brain has the ability or the authority to pull up all of our long term memories warehoused in the soul so what is retrieved by the brain when it concerns long term memories are always different than remembered. I'm not sure how the brain and soul interact concerning all the gathered information which makes up you. I've astral projected voluntarily, from a wakened state (not lucid dreaming) once and twice involuntarily, it is upon these three different experiences concerning my soul traveling that I make my claims about such metaphysical notions.

                                                ...and I'm rambling...sorry. :-?
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                                                Re: Reality - Version 0.1

                                                Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:24 pm

                                                  WendyDarling

                                                  These are all things that interest me - and funnily enough I think we are still able to keep a rational mind through it all . . .

                                                  WendyDarling wrote:Since you gave me a yes, then I will add that the soul, the seat of consciousness, is a separate body which works in tandem with the biological body. Also, the eyes of the soul(your 3rd eye :evilfun: ) records memories, just as the eyes connected to the brain records memories. I'm not convinced that the brain has the ability or the authority to pull up all of our long term memories warehoused in the soul so what is retrieved by the brain when it concerns long term memories are always different than remembered. I'm not sure how the brain and soul interact concerning all the gathered information which makes up you. I've astral projected voluntarily, from a wakened state (not lucid dreaming) once and twice involuntarily, it is upon these three different experiences concerning my soul traveling that I make my claims about such metaphysical notions.

                                                  ...and I'm rambling...sorry. :-?

                                                  You are certainly not rambling to me. I was exploring something similar in a thread I started called paradox of vu - which was really about the paradox of the sensed - there were a number of different and interesting answers. The way you and I define the soul as the seat of the consciousness has a couple of similarities to James' spirit in that it is a separate body which works in tandem with the biological body(and again I know I will be corrected if I messed up). I think it is maybe at this point that that we all either diverge or the topic becomes ambiguous. I have never considered my third eye as the eyes of my soul but then I have only just changed over my definition of soul due to the last one being poorly defined. I have always considered my third eye as my minds eye - so that is confusing to me - however I have been a Christian like person most of my life. I still love the Bible but there is so much out there to learn and I consider myself everyone's student - I have never been able to achieve and astral projection so I can not really comment on that - all I can say is that I have tried many times. I do however spend a lot of time in deep meditation. It seems that I can feel events before they happen sometimes too; I am not even sure what that is about.

                                                  Now I am rambling!

                                                  :lol:
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                                                    But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                                    - which is to say there is always meaning.

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