Weakness is strength??

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:32 pm

gib wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Your tag or whatever the proper word for the label ... "Consciousness Seeker" implies you have asked yourself the question though I don't see much evidence of any serious attempt to answer it in your posts ... the posts I've read.


You've noticed that too, huh?


Et tu brute, Gib?

What kind of evidence, by your standards, would I have to show/give in my posts in order for someone to see or to intuit that I attempt to answer the question of Who Am I and that in other ways also I attempt to be a consciousness seeker?

Tell me, how would YOU go about it, if you were me?


Please critique me also.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:36 pm

We are rarely at our best. Too often what shows forth in our lives is not what’s best in us: love, generosity, a big heart. More often than not, our lives radiate irritation, pettiness, and a small heart.

Too often, we find ourselves consumed by petty irritations, conflicts, frustrations, and angers. Each of these might be small in itself but, cumulatively, they take the sunshine and delight out of our lives, like mosquitoes spoiling a picnic. Then, instead of feeling grateful, gracious, and magnanimous, we feel paranoid, fearful, and irritable and we end up acting out of a cold, irritated, paranoid part of ourselves rather than out of our real selves.

Why do we do that? Because we are asleep to who and what we really are, asleep in a double way:


AD ... I didn't suggest your efforts are anything less than sincere ... seems you are simply running into "road blocks" ... ergo ... "mental blocks" along the way. All genuine seekers experience this phenomenon ... most of them for an entire lifetime ... perhaps several lifetimes.

Willfully ignoring a substantial and enduring body of thought is not indicative of a big "C" consciousness seeker.

Ditto for big "P" philosophers.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:53 pm

AD ... I didn't suggest your efforts are anything less than sincere ...


Oh, but you did in a roundabout way. See below.

"Consciousness Seeker" implies you have asked yourself the question though I don't see much evidence of any serious attempt to answer it in your posts ... the posts I've read.


seems you are simply running into "road blocks" ... ergo ... "mental blocks" along the way. All genuine seekers experience this phenomenon ... most of them for an entire lifetime ... perhaps several lifetimes.


We all run into roadblocks. I am human, you are human, we are all human.
I would have used the word *emotional* block with reference to these posts in this case although mental is also a part of it.


Willfully ignoring a substantial and enduring body of thought is not indicative of a big "C" consciousness seeker.


It is also implied here that this is directed toward me - though not in a *direct* way.
What to you is a substantial and enduring body of thought??

I am waiting for both yourself and Gib to critique me and point out what you see as lacking in me. In other words, to put your money where your mouth is.


Also, I never implied that I was a big *C* consciousness seeker. I am more of a little *c* a peon of a seeker. ..more of a little *grasshopper* to this great big Universe of ours. Perhaps I shall change the C to a c.
But then again, perhaps I disrespect myself a bit in saying that...though I am a student.

Ditto for big "P" philosophers.


I suppose that part of being fully conscious (if we can even get that far* is realizing that *people who live in glass houses cannot afford to throw stones* ~~ and we all, each and every one of us, in a sense, live in those glasses houses at times, some more often that others.


I addressed the below to you ....

"Tell that to the mediator whose words have settled countless disputes to the satisfaction of all parties.

Tell that to the negotiator whose words have saved the lives of many hostages.

Tell that to the police person who has managed to talk a teenager off the roof when all he or she wanted was to jump.

Tell that to the diplomat whose words have soothed the savage beast between nations.

Tell that to all people who have read the works of the poets and been awe-inspired.

Tell that to the people who have read Science and Philosophy books and who have been inspired to follow suit.

Tell that to the children who have been consoled by their parents when it takes much more than just a hug.

Tell that to the leaders of the French Revolution or any revolution whose passionate speeches have paved the way for freedom."

...but you made no effort to address that.
Your only response was in remarking about the *monastery* story.

Why was that?
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby gib » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:00 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:I am waiting for both yourself and Gib to critique me and point out what you see as lacking in me.


No! [-(
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
- unknown source

Men must be taught as if you taught them not. And things unknown proposed as things forgot.
- Alexander Pope

Here lies the body of William J, who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sped along, but he's just as dead as if he were wrong.
- Boston Transcript
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:42 pm

gib wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:I am waiting for both yourself and Gib to critique me and point out what you see as lacking in me.


No! [-(


AD ... there's nothing to critique ... there's nothing lacking in you. Your posts reflect "you" at a particular space and time ... by the time you hit the send button "you" have already changed even though you don't recognize it.

This e-exchange illustrates the paradox of human communication:

1) We need to communicate with each other to grow.

2) Attempts to communicate too often devolve to the point ... "My perspective is superior to yours and here let me prove it."
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:58 pm

AD ... I didn't suggest your efforts are anything less than sincere ...

Oh, but you did in a roundabout way. See below.


This is a public forum ... all of my posts are addressed to the entire ILP audience.

I would have used the word *emotional* block with reference to these posts in this case although mental is also a part of it.


Have you read my comments in Aaron's OP on the subject of emotions?

What to you is a substantial and enduring body of thought??


Chinese thought is an example.

Also, I never implied that I was a big *C* consciousness seeker. I am more of a little *c* a peon of a seeker. ..more of a little *grasshopper* to this great big Universe of ours. Perhaps I shall change the C to a c.
But then again, perhaps I disrespect myself a bit in saying that...though I am a student.


We are all pregnant with the potential for greatness ... few manage to birth their potential ... a sad fact.

...but you made no effort to address that.
Your only response was in remarking about the *monastery* story.

Why was that?


At the moment we have diametrically opposite views on the essence of "words". For me, it's futile and destructive to argue my perspective. The differences will evaporate or they won't ... either way is OK for me. :-)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby phyllo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:36 am

For me, it's futile and destructive to argue my perspective.
Why are you in an internet discussion forum??? :shock:
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:36 am

phyllo wrote:
For me, it's futile and destructive to argue my perspective.
Why are you in an internet discussion forum??? :shock:


For the same reason some people put a message in a bottle and throw it into the ocean ... looking for some like minded person(s). :-)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby phyllo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:48 am

Oh, I see.

You're looking for people who think exactly as you do.

In that case, avoiding discussion makes perfect sense. =D>
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:35 am

phyllo wrote:Oh, I see.


Agreed ... what you want to see ... that is. A very common human characteristic.

phyllo wrote:You're looking for people who think exactly as you do.


A good example of my above comment ... not all people see the expression "like minded people" as " people who think exactly as you do"

phyllo wrote:In that case, avoiding discussion makes perfect sense. =D>


... and just in case I didn't get it in your first example you were kind enough to provide a second ... thanks.

Not all people see discussion and argument as synonyms.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby MagsJ » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:59 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Every once in a while Guiseppe ...the reluctant saint ... talks to me ... or I talk to him. :)

Happens when I'm reluctant to feed my wife's geese, chickens and ducks ... 21 in total. I'm usually totally spent at the time from helping with my wife's farming project.

Guess that means Guiseppe encourages me to be more thoughtful towards animals ... kindness to animals must surely lead to an uptick in kindness to people ... no?

Many are still kinder to animals than they are to people.. including friends and acquaintances of mine. Don't hurt the poor animals they say, but then talk down to, argue with, and get rude to 'people'.
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby MagsJ » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:46 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:... what you want to see ... that is. A very common human characteristic.

... not all people see the expression "like minded people" as " people who think exactly as you do"

Not all people see discussion and argument as synonyms.

I have to say.. that that is exactly how I see things and would have responded, and yet we don't always agree or come to the same conclusions ;)

Likeminded is being able enough to comprehend the other, which helps focus one's thoughts in seeing things without any constructed mental barriers, so as to see and think with better clarity.
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby MagsJ » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:04 am

phyllo wrote:If you only hang out with people of "a similar ilk", then you don't grow.

One becomes better by being challenged.

I think the opposite is actually true... similar ilks build each other up on a mental level, not drag each other down to the dulled physical realm of existence, where one feels one's head will explode with the usual tripe and the endless ennui becomes mind-numbingly toxic.. to the point of threatening one's wellbeing and livelihood.

Some conversations are intuited, and are therefore not meant to be.. the intuiter wanting the conversation to progress quicker than the one who cannot/does not intuit.
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby phyllo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:33 pm

Agreed ... what you want to see ... that is. A very common human characteristic.

A good example of my above comment ... not all people see the expression "like minded people" as " people who think exactly as you do"
If I misunderstood you then I would ask for an explanation of what "like minded people" means.

But would you answer me? I think not. You are more likely to pull out your Confucius quote.

What does "like minded people" mean?
Not all people see discussion and argument as synonyms.
You don't even answer questions or requests for more information. Those are integral parts of a discussion.

Therefore, I think 'discussion' was the appropriate word.
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:11 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
phyllo wrote:
For me, it's futile and destructive to argue my perspective.
Why are you in an internet discussion forum??? :shock:


For the same reason some people put a message in a bottle and throw it into the ocean ... looking for some like minded person(s). :-)


I have never done that but have thought of doing it.

Do you have any idea what message you might put in the bottle and send off?
I would be curious about that. I am curious about that. What would your first word be, do you think?
I think that as far as that went, the world would be your oyster.
Of course, it would stand to reason that you would have to give your name and address to receive a message back.

Can you imagine the arguments/discussions (philosophically speaking) which would ensue in ILP if you did not send your name and address to that person YET his/her message/response in his/her bottle comes back to YOU, only YOU? LOL
Fate, serendipity, synchronicity, the law of averages (I think), randomness, determinism, oceanography lol, physics...ad continuum.

I do not believe or intuit "real magic" but I might be a bit more skeptical or agnostic about it NOT existing in this Universe if that were to occur. lol

I mean the so-called "real" magic that people (like those who believe they are witches) believe that they are capable of conjuring up, bringing into existence by way of their own power and control.


Like-minded in what way?
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:55 pm

If I misunderstood you then I would ask for an explanation of what "like minded people" means.

But would you answer me? I think not. You are more likely to pull out your Confucius quote.

What does "like minded people" mean?


I like Mags definition ... though I would use different words. Have you read it?

You don't even answer questions or requests for more information. Those are integral parts of a discussion.

Therefore, I think 'discussion' was the appropriate word.


Spoon feeding is for infants ... adults learn to feed themselves.

I've shared lots and lots of personal stuff and on several occasions provided links to a large repository of personal experiences and thoughts. A few ILP members nibbled ... none found the taste palatable. :-)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:01 am

Do you have any idea what message you might put in the bottle and send off?
I would be curious about that. I am curious about that. What would your first word be, do you think?
I think that as far as that went, the world would be your oyster.
Of course, it would stand to reason that you would have to give your name and address to receive a message back.


Only one word ... "Help!"

Providing name and address is banal ... unimaginative. :-) The universe knows me and how to contact me. :-)
Like-minded in what way?


Like minded as in genuine truth seekers who have reached a stage of maturity that approximates my own. I accept that all ILP members are truth seekers at various stages along a very very long road.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby phyllo » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:27 am

I like Mags definition ... though I would use different words. Have you read it?

You mean this :
Likeminded is being able enough to comprehend the other, which helps focus one's thoughts in seeing things without any constructed mental barriers, so as to see and think with better clarity.
I can comprehend people who have views which are completely different from mine and who think in completely different ways. I don't see that as an obstacle ... in fact, it makes the discussion much more interesting. And it forces me to get off my comfy couch and to exercise my mind.

Let's just put this down as "different strokes for different folks".
I've shared lots and lots of personal stuff and on several occasions provided links to a large repository of personal experiences and thoughts.
I'm not interested in your "personal stuff" except as it relates general human experience which is applicable to more or less everyone.

I don't consider this to be a forum for sharing personal stuff. That's why I rarely and reluctantly post my personal experiences.

I'm really only interested in the philosophical reasoning in the posts.
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:43 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom

Do you have any idea what message you might put in the bottle and send off?
I would be curious about that. I am curious about that. What would your first word be, do you think?
I think that as far as that went, the world would be your oyster.
Of course, it would stand to reason that you would have to give your name and address to receive a message back.


Only one word ... "Help!"


Are you being facetious here? Of all the words you could possibly say in sending your message in the bottle, the first one would be help?!!!!
I realize that it might take some reflection to consider what that first word might be and/or what your message would be, but would you honestly waste words by sending a plea for help?
Well, perhaps only if you were stranded at sea and could navigate by the stars to give your location.
You might have just said" "Arc, I will have to get back to you on that.

I thought that it was an interesting question ~~ I was being serious.

Seeing the possibility that it might happen, you might have begun with the word "WOW". "If someone has picked up my message, what a LARK that is" perhaps with a LOL.
Then you might go on to share a bit of your life. (Of course, you would have already set up a P.O. Box # just in case). lol
Can you even imagine it though? What a refreshing exhilarating breeze that could bring to your life.
Do you not think that we can use all of the amazing things which give us a raison d'etre - to spice up our lives.
That is not being hedonist but it can be quite stoic in nature.



Providing name and address is banal ... unimaginative. :-) The universe knows me and how to contact me. :-)

For someone who would at least appear to be unimaginative, you seem to indulge in "magical thinking" unless of course you are being facetious again.
How can one gain clarity when another uses facetiousness to try to win an arguments which only fails.



Like-minded in what way?[/quote]

Like minded as in genuine truth seekers who have reached a stage of maturity that approximates my own.

Can you give me an example of that?
Stage of maturity as in age or as in wisdom?

I may be wrong in my estimation of you and your stage of maturity but do genuine truth seekers who have reached that stage which you speak about utter words like you did to me?:

"Consciousness Seeker" implies you have asked yourself the question though I don't see much evidence of any serious attempt to answer it in your posts ... the posts I've read.

I will be honest with you. That dig did sting (a bit of ego, yes) and not because of you but despite you, it taught me something.

Again as I said, I may be wrong here, but do believe/intuit that your words actually qualify you as a genuine truth seeker and one who has reached a particular stage of maturity? I might question what stage that is.


I accept that all ILP members are truth seekers at various stages along a very very long road.


Yes, you can say that.
Just a bit of advice which you needn't take. If you are saying something to someone and you do not want them to take it personally (aside from what you said *directly* to me, meaning me) it could be a good idea to say that you are speaking universally, including all people, the *we* in other words.

This thread is called "Weakness is strength". My emotions, to a degree, have shown me that weakness can indeed give rise to strength. Mind over matter does not always cut it; neither does suppressing or repressing. That within it (weakness) there is hidden strength if we just allow our emotions to flow, like waves, accepting them, not trying to fight them but allowing them to speak to us and to urge us on to some kind of positive action which we learn from.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:34 pm

Are you being facetious here? Of all the words you could possibly say in sending your message in the bottle, the first one would be help?!!!!


Arc ... rage creates serious blind spots ... read my post again ... I didn't say "help" would be the first word ... I said "help" would be the ONLY word.

Since you don't like Confucius let me try Einstein ... :)

Imagination is more important than knowledge.


I imagine ... rightly or wrongly ...

1) the universe knows what kind of help I need better than I do ... at every instance of my life.

2) the universe has an excellent memory ... no need to ask a second time. Petty and persistent requests must be an annoyance.

3) the universe knows best how to get the help I need to me ... always.

4) my challenge is to accept all that the universe sends me ... the good ... the bad ... and the ugly. Furthermore ... understand all of it is intended to help me.

I may be wrong in my estimation of you and your stage of maturity but do genuine truth seekers who have reached that stage which you speak about utter words like you did to me?
:

Genuine truth seekers not only seek truth ... they speak truth ... as they see it from moment to moment.

Let me quote JSS

Truth is destructive


This thread is called "Weakness is strength"


Our e-exchanges are testimony to the validity of the OP title.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:23 pm

"pilgrim-seeker_tom

Are you being facetious here? Of all the words you could possibly say in sending your message in the bottle, the first one would be help?!!!!

Arc ... rage creates serious blind spots ... read my post again ... I didn't say "help" would be the first word ... I said "help" would be the ONLY word.


lol Are you telling me that you intuited rage in my statement? You may say *no* but then my next question would be: Why then would you insert the word *rage* into the post?

Am I capable of experiencing rage? Yes I am as I would suppose most are. Terrorism attacks enrage me, pedophiles enrage me when they have destroyed the psychic lives of children, rapists enrage me for the same reason, ad continuum. Does that mean that I would go out and murder in the name of justice? Probably not but who really knows what one is capable of under certain circumstances. But it is a good thing to try to be aware of what we are capable of...you know, that dark side. Close our eyes to it and we may be doomed.

I am not a buddhist.

Since you don't like Confucius let me try Einstein ... :)

Imagination is more important than knowledge.]


Imagination is wonderful, awesome, but I am not quite sure that it is more important than knowledge but I may be wrong. I might like to think of them as running nose to nose. But then again, a lot of knowledge has come into existence through the use of one's imagination, wondering and musing.


I imagine ... rightly or wrongly ...

1) the universe knows what kind of help I need better than I do ... at every instance of my life.

2) the universe has an excellent memory ... no need to ask a second time. Petty and persistent requests must be an annoyance.

3) the universe knows best how to get the help I need to me ... always.

4) my challenge is to accept all that the universe sends me ... the good ... the bad ... and the ugly. .



I have thought and felt the same thing at times. At the same time, I think that this way of thinking and human experience is at least in part due to the little universe which we each have within us, the unconscious, the subconscious, that other self somewhere within which knows how to trust and to be in harmony with the outer universe.

Furthermore ... understand all of it is intended to help me


So, when the universe sends (as you implied) terrorists your way and your part of the world and different parts of the world are destroyed and devastated, human lives are crushed and blown up, please tell me in what way that is the universe *intending* to help you?

We do not always realize what it is that we are saying when we are saying it? So, how is that the universe helping us? I do not want rationalizations - I am looking for truth.


I may be wrong in my estimation of you and your stage of maturity but do genuine truth seekers who have reached that stage which you speak about utter words like you did to me?
:

Genuine truth seekers not only seek truth ... they speak truth ... as they see it from moment to moment.


lol Do you mean to say in the same way that some posters in here speak their own truth? Would ranting and raving be a part of speaking *truth*? :evilfun:

I do agree with the above though with one qualification. Genuine truth seekers speak their truth with a sense of responsibility and care - or do they not?

Let me quote JSS

Truth is destructive


Yes, it may be. It may also be instructive and constructive - and a real eye opener if we can be objective and not white wash what IS.
It is ALSO akin to power. It just depends within whose hands, heart and mind it is being held.

This thread is called "Weakness is strength"

Our e-exchanges are testimony to the validity of the OP title.
[/quote]

Will you please clarify what YOU mean by the above. I mean really respond to it.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby gib » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:35 pm

MagsJ wrote:I think the opposite is actually true... similar ilks build each other up on a mental level, not drag each other down to the dulled physical realm of existence, where one feels one's head will explode with the usual tripe and the endless ennui becomes mind-numbingly toxic.. to the point of threatening one's wellbeing and livelihood.


I think both must be true in different ways. How 'bout this: Phyllo is right in that we all must be challenged in order to grow (no pain, no gain), but you're right Mags in that we all must have a support system in order to grow. Going out and meeting the challenges of un-like minded people is the gathering of material for growth. Returning to your peers and support group is how to best utilize that material for growth. Without material, there isn't much to grow on, even if you have the best support group in the world. But without a support group, it's difficult to know how to utilize the material for your own growth, even if you have an iron resolve to do so. The support group provides guidance, a different (perhaps objective) perspective, and also rejuvinates your confidence in case the challenges take too much of a toll on you.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:I've shared lots and lots of personal stuff and on several occasions provided links to a large repository of personal experiences and thoughts. A few ILP members nibbled ... none found the taste palatable. :-)


Are you sure of that, Pilgrim? I'll often nibble from people's philosophies, but if I don't return for more, it's only because I'm at a huge buffet and all I can do to fill my plate is nibble on a bit of this and a bit of that.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Only one word ... "Help!"


And if you were to split that up into, let's say, 10 words (or more)... what would it be?

phyllo wrote:I don't consider this to be a forum for sharing personal stuff. That's why I rarely and reluctantly post my personal experiences.


I think it's pretty rare that personal stuff doesn't impinge on human experience in general. What experience does a person go through that another can't relate to to some degree?

I suppose certain groups of people can boast that they've had experiences in life which I will never have: what it's like to be a blind man, what it's like to be a woman giving birth... but even then, the sharing of these experiences are common at least within that group.

If there's one thing I've learned about philosophy, the main subject of this forum, it's that any topic can be made into philosophy, especially personal experiences.

Arcturus Descending wrote:Imagination is wonderful, awesome, but I am not quite sure that it is more important than knowledge but I may be wrong. I might like to think of them as running nose to nose. But then again, a lot of knowledge has come into existence through the use of one's imagination, wondering and musing.


I think the way Einstein meant that phrase wasn't in the mutually exclusive sense--either knowledge or imagination--but in the sense of what is needed for what. Imagination is needed for knowledge, it's needed for understanding. It's like I was explaining to Magnus Anderson the other day: just in order to understand the word "apple", one must bring to their imagination the idea of an apple--otherwise there's no comprehension at all--and just the same, I think in order to understand the knowledge we possess, we must conceptualize that knowledge in our imagination. So imagination is more important than knowledge in the sense that it is needed for knowledge, and if we're lucky, can bring us beyond knowledge.

On truth seekers: I think I would have called myself a truth seeker in my youth, but one of the most profound truths I ever stumbled across is that half the time, you've gotta invent your own truth. In science, in engineering, in justice and law, it's best to be a truth seeker--let your beliefs be guided by evidence--but there are so many areas of life in which being a truth inventor is best--and in many of them, the only thing to be. I'm thinking of areas in life in which nothing is really a fact of the matter. Take mental health for example. Are you a glass is half full person or a glass is half empty person? Is there a fact of the matter? The whole crux of this expression is that there isn't, and that what that leaves us with is a choice, a couple of perspective to select. Now, the choice is not based on facts or evidence. We suddenly realize in this moment that the truth depends on what we want it to be, yet we can still be guided by a principle: mental health. What would be more healthy? To see the glass as half empty or half full? Or take as another example: criticism. Someone may harshly criticize you and make you feel small. But what we often do, and this is normal and healthy, is try at once to accept the criticism (if you see little kernels of truth in it) and to re-think it in a more positive way, a way that doesn't make you feel small or belittled. Judging a person or yourself on their/your character flaws is far removed from the realm of facts and evidence, and very much in the realm of inventing truth--the skill here being to simply recognize what truth counts as healthy.
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A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
- unknown source

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:52 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:"pilgrim-seeker_tom

Are you being facetious here? Of all the words you could possibly say in sending your message in the bottle, the first one would be help?!!!!

Arc ... rage creates serious blind spots ... read my post again ... I didn't say "help" would be the first word ... I said "help" would be the ONLY word.


lol Are you telling me that you intuited rage in my statement? Yes You may say *no* but then my next question would be: Why then would you insert the word *rage* into the post?

Am I capable of experiencing rage? Yes I am as I would suppose most are. Terrorism attacks enrage me, pedophiles enrage me when they have destroyed the psychic lives of children, rapists enrage me for the same reason, ad continuum. Does that mean that I would go out and murder in the name of justice? Probably not but who really knows what one is capable of under certain circumstances. All of us have infinite potential to commit the most heinous of crimes ... Jordan Petersen But it is a good thing to try to be aware of what we are capable of...you know, that dark side. Close our eyes to it and we may be doomed. Facing this unpleasant reality is a necessary part of growth.

I am not a buddhist. So?

Since you don't like Confucius let me try Einstein ... :)

Imagination is more important than knowledge.]


Imagination is wonderful, awesome, but I am not quite sure that it is more important than knowledge but I may be wrong. I might like to think of them as running nose to nose. But then again, a lot of knowledge has come into existence through the use of one's imagination, wondering and musing. A bad decision is better than no decision. Pick a horse ... get on it and ride ... you will eventually know. :-)


I imagine ... rightly or wrongly ...

1) the universe knows what kind of help I need better than I do ... at every instance of my life.

2) the universe has an excellent memory ... no need to ask a second time. Petty and persistent requests must be an annoyance.

3) the universe knows best how to get the help I need to me ... always.

4) my challenge is to accept all that the universe sends me ... the good ... the bad ... and the ugly. .



I have thought and felt the same thing at times. At the same time, I think that this way of thinking and human experience is at least in part due to the little universe which we each have within us, the unconscious, the subconscious, that other self somewhere within which knows how to trust and to be in harmony with the outer universe. A bad decision is better than no decision. Pick a horse ... get on it and ride ... you will eventually know. :-)


Furthermore ... understand all of it is intended to help me


So, when the universe sends (as you implied) terrorists your way and your part of the world and different parts of the world are destroyed and devastated, human lives are crushed and blown up, please tell me in what way that is the universe *intending* to help you? Your question would be better asked to the individuals who have experienced what you described.


We do not always realize what it is that we are saying when we are saying it? So, how is that the universe helping us? That's the challenge each of us face ... not to worry ... the universe will resend the same message ad infinitum ... some of us need to be hit over the head with a 2X4 before we get it. :-)I do not want rationalizations - I am looking for truth.


I may be wrong in my estimation of you and your stage of maturity but do genuine truth seekers who have reached that stage which you speak about utter words like you did to me?
: Yes and worse. :-)

Genuine truth seekers not only seek truth ... they speak truth ... as they see it from moment to moment.


lol Do you mean to say in the same way that some posters in here speak their own truth? Would ranting and raving be a part of speaking *truth*? :evilfun: Yes ... it's an expression of frustration ... very normal human reaction to personal failure.

I do agree with the above though with one qualification. Genuine truth seekers speak their truth with a sense of responsibility and care - or do they not? They say what they judge ... at the particular moment ... needs to be said ... in a way they believe will reach the listener.

Let me quote JSS

Truth is destructive


Yes, it may be. A bad decision is better than no decision. Pick a horse ... get on it and ride ... you will eventually know. :-)
It may also be instructive and constructive - and a real eye opener if we can be objective and not white wash what IS.
It is ALSO akin to power. It just depends within whose hands, heart and mind it is being held.

This thread is called "Weakness is strength"

Our e-exchanges are testimony to the validity of the OP title.


Will you please clarify what YOU mean by the above. I mean really respond to it.[/quote] What word(s) is the source of your confusion? or ... do you simply want more words before you deploy your battering ram. :-)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:15 am

gib wrote:
MagsJ wrote:I think the opposite is actually true... similar ilks build each other up on a mental level, not drag each other down to the dulled physical realm of existence, where one feels one's head will explode with the usual tripe and the endless ennui becomes mind-numbingly toxic.. to the point of threatening one's wellbeing and livelihood.
=D> =D>

I think both must be true in different ways. How 'bout this: Phyllo is right in that we all must be challenged in order to grow (no pain, no gain), but you're right Mags in that we all must have a support system in order to grow. Going out and meeting the challenges of un-like minded people is the gathering of material for growth. Returning to your peers and support group is how to best utilize that material for growth. Without material, there isn't much to grow on, even if you have the best support group in the world. But without a support group, it's difficult to know how to utilize the material for your own growth, even if you have an iron resolve to do so. The support group provides guidance, a different (perhaps objective) perspective, and also rejuvinates your confidence in case the challenges take too much of a toll on you.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:I've shared lots and lots of personal stuff and on several occasions provided links to a large repository of personal experiences and thoughts. A few ILP members nibbled ... none found the taste palatable. :-)


Are you sure of that, Pilgrim? I'll often nibble from people's philosophies, but if I don't return for more, it's only because I'm at a huge buffet and all I can do to fill my plate is nibble on a bit of this and a bit of that. Lots of people are like butterflies ... yet ... eventually some people nibble on something that really excites their inner being.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Only one word ... "Help!"


And if you were to split that up into, let's say, 10 words (or more)... what would it be? To be true to my personal conviction ... imagination is superior to knowledge ... it is better to encourage you to use your imagination for the 10 words. :-)

phyllo wrote:I don't consider this to be a forum for sharing personal stuff. That's why I rarely and reluctantly post my personal experiences.


I think it's pretty rare that personal stuff doesn't impinge on human experience in general. What experience does a person go through that another can't relate to to some degree? =D>

I suppose certain groups of people can boast that they've had experiences in life which I will never have: what it's like to be a blind man, what it's like to be a woman giving birth... but even then, the sharing of these experiences are common at least within that group.

If there's one thing I've learned about philosophy, the main subject of this forum, it's that any topic can be made into philosophy, especially personal experiences. Philosophy not supported by personal experience is simply words in a vacuum.

Arcturus Descending wrote:Imagination is wonderful, awesome, but I am not quite sure that it is more important than knowledge but I may be wrong. I might like to think of them as running nose to nose. But then again, a lot of knowledge has come into existence through the use of one's imagination, wondering and musing.


I think the way Einstein meant that phrase wasn't in the mutually exclusive sense--either knowledge or imagination--but in the sense of what is needed for what. Imagination is needed for knowledge, it's needed for understanding. It's like I was explaining to Magnus Anderson the other day: just in order to understand the word "apple", one must bring to their imagination the idea of an apple--otherwise there's no comprehension at all--and just the same, I think in order to understand the knowledge we possess, we must conceptualize that knowledge in our imagination. So imagination is more important than knowledge in the sense that it is needed for knowledge, and if we're lucky, can bring us beyond knowledge. If imagination must precede knowledge ... it occupies a superior ranking.

On truth seekers: I think I would have called myself a truth seeker in my youth, but one of the most profound truths I ever stumbled across is that half the time, you've gotta invent your own truth. Imagination?In science, in engineering, in justice and law, it's best to be a truth seeker--let your beliefs be guided by evidence--but there are so many areas of life in which being a truth inventor is best--and in many of them, the only thing to be. I'm thinking of areas in life in which nothing is really a fact of the matter. Take mental health for example. Are you a glass is half full person or a glass is half empty person? Is there a fact of the matter? The whole crux of this expression is that there isn't, and that what that leaves us with is a choice, a couple of perspective to select. Now, the choice is not based on facts or evidence. We suddenly realize in this moment that the truth depends on what we want it to be, yet we can still be guided by a principle: mental health. What would be more healthy? To see the glass as half empty or half full? Or take as another example: criticism. Someone may harshly criticize you and make you feel small. But what we often do, and this is normal and healthy, is try at once to accept the criticism (if you see little kernels of truth in it) and to re-think it in a more positive way, a way that doesn't make you feel small or belittled.Medicine most often has a bitter taste. Judging a person or yourself on their/your character flaws is far removed from the realm of facts and evidence, and very much in the realm of inventing truth--the skill here being to simply recognize what truth counts as healthy.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby phyllo » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:17 pm

To be true to my personal conviction ... imagination is superior to knowledge ... it is better to encourage you to use your imagination for the 10 words. :-)
He will imagine it completely from his own limited perspective.

He can't get out of the sack that confines his imagination unless someone shows him some other ways of imagining.
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