Weakness is strength??

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:40 pm

phyllo wrote:
If you "wake up" you will feel differently ... and feel much better.
Wake up to what? Wake up how? :sleeping-sleeping:

Maybe THIS is my true self. Why not? O:)


Phyllo ... it's usually recognized by looking back ... some time after the mysterious inflection point. Like our birth ... we have no idea how or when we were born ... the recollection is buried in the shadows of memory. We accept what other people tell us about our birth. Ditto for conception ... I wonder at what age Steve Job realized his caretakers were not his biological parents.

"Self" is a transient entity ... never remains the same for one instant.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:45 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom



In the Collective Consciousness ... One Mind = One Unit ... no distinction.



...and do you find this to be a positive?
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:50 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom

Phyllo ... it's usually recognized by looking back ... some time after the mysterious inflection point. Like our birth ... we have no idea how or when we were born ... the recollection is buried in the shadows of memory. We accept what other people tell us about our birth. Ditto for conception ... I wonder at what age Steve Job realized his caretakers were not his biological parents.

Self" is a transient entity ... never remains the same for one instant.



So what are you saying here - that the above-listed are part of our "true" Self?
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:27 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:pilgrim-seeker_tom



In the Collective Consciousness ... One Mind = One Unit ... no distinction.



...and do you find this to be a positive?


The notion of "Collective Consciousness" has not graduated from the realm of ideas into the realm of generally accepted reality ... yet! Although it is gaining more traction and new adherents every day.

Collective Unconsciousness ---> Collective Consciousness ---> Collective Will

I find the above 'idea' positive.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:31 am

Arcturus Descending wrote:pilgrim-seeker_tom

Phyllo ... it's usually recognized by looking back ... some time after the mysterious inflection point. Like our birth ... we have no idea how or when we were born ... the recollection is buried in the shadows of memory. We accept what other people tell us about our birth. Ditto for conception ... I wonder at what age Steve Job realized his caretakers were not his biological parents.

Self" is a transient entity ... never remains the same for one instant.



So what are you saying here - that the above-listed are part of our "true" Self?


If one accepts that "self" is a transient entity ... logic compels us to believe the "true" Self is the product of many life times ... each lifetime building on the aggregate of previous lifetimes. This idea dovetails nicely with the Buddhist notion of reincarnation ... the connection is not so clear in the Arahamic traditions.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:29 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:pilgrim-seeker_tom



In the Collective Consciousness ... One Mind = One Unit ... no distinction.



...and do you find this to be a positive?


The notion of "Collective Consciousness" has not graduated from the realm of ideas into the realm of generally accepted reality ... yet!

Collective Unconsciousness ---> Collective Consciousness ---> Collective Will

I find the above 'idea' positive.


Well, for me, at first glance, the Borg, Nazi Germany and Isis come to mind.


Is THAT positive to you?


Although it is gaining more traction and new adherents every day.


Can be a very dangerous concept or ideal.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:22 pm

It's OK to suggest a direction to look in ... it's unmitigated arrogance to tell people what to see.

Confucian wisdom
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:55 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
It's OK to suggest a direction to look in ... it's unmitigated arrogance to tell people what to see.

Confucian wisdom


Well, if Confucius was before me at this moment, I would tell him the same thing I am telling you.
I was not telling you what to see. I was simply telling you what could also be seen - another direction, if you will - giving another perspective.

There are many perspectives since many things are open to interpretation. We all see things differently and from different angles and one size does not fit all. You are certainly entitled to your own perspective but it is not the only one.

I agree with Nietzsche: that things need to be turned inside out and upside down and this way and that. I am paraphrasing here.


per·spec·tiv·ism
pərˈspektəˌvizəm/Submit
noun
1.
PHILOSOPHY
the theory that knowledge of a subject is inevitably partial and limited by the individual perspective from which it is viewed.
2.
the practice of regarding and analyzing a situation or work of art from different points of view.


Incidentally, I did say that...

Well, for me, at first glance


The phrase, for me, suggests that it is only my viewpoint.

One more thing before I go. This is only my perspective of course but it is somewhat aggravating when someone hides behind the quote[s] of another (Confucius in this instance) in order to issue an insult under the guise of a so-called argument.

Have a nice day.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:19 pm

One more thing before I go. This is only my perspective of course but it is somewhat aggravating when someone hides behind the quote[s] of another (Confucius in this instance) in order to issue an insult under the guise of a so-called argument.


A True Grit Philosopher is ...

a) Intelligent ... yet humble.

b) Down to earth ... in both thoughts and deeds.

c) Determined ... yet not obsessive.

d) Self confident enough to be "warm" ... despite being mocked and persecuted.

e) Courageous enough to break new trails ... yet not break the law.

f) Insert here


I do not go along with (e).


Seems you do not go along with d) as well. :-)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:05 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
One more thing before I go. This is only my perspective of course but it is somewhat aggravating when someone hides behind the quote[s] of another (Confucius in this instance) in order to issue an insult under the guise of a so-called argument.


A True Grit Philosopher is ...

a) Intelligent ... yet humble.

b) Down to earth ... in both thoughts and deeds.

c) Determined ... yet not obsessive.

d) Self confident enough to be "warm" ... despite being mocked and persecuted.

e) Courageous enough to break new trails ... yet not break the law.

f) Insert here


I do not go along with (e).


Seems you do not go along with d) as well. :-)


Since what you said here is kind of ambiguous, at least to me, I will not assume/presume what you meant.
A little clarity is called for.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:21 am

Since what you said here is kind of ambiguous, at least to me, I will not assume/presume what you meant.
A little clarity is called for.


1) Within the framework of our e-exchange Confucius and Nietzsche are saying the same thing. The differences in expression are rooted in cultural differences.

2) Anger is a complex emotion. Like an erupting volcano ... we see the manifestation of bursts of anger yet we rarely fully understand the underlying factors that lead to an eruption.

3) Words are woefully over rated ... words taken out of context often leads to serious misunderstandings.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:29 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Since what you said here is kind of ambiguous, at least to me, I will not assume/presume what you meant.
A little clarity is called for.


1) Within the framework of our e-exchange Confucius and Nietzsche are saying the same thing. The differences in expression are rooted in cultural differences.

2) Anger is a complex emotion. Like an erupting volcano ... we see the manifestation of bursts of anger yet we rarely fully understand the underlying factors that lead to an eruption.

3) Words are woefully over rated ... words taken out of context often leads to serious misunderstandings.


But Nietzsche within his statement was not insulting someone. He was telling us to take another look, and then another look, and then yet another look ~~ that there are other perspectives, interpretation, representations, ad continuum to things. You, on the other hand, were, by using Confucius as your shield to insult.

You are welcome to your perspective but I see it the other way. Words are actually woefully *underrated*.
Words do have meaning and they have great power.


It was up to you to clarify YOUR meaning. It was up to you to apply the right context. But I intuit a purpose in your not doing so. It is a pattern.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:56 am

Words are actually woefully *underrated*.
Words do have meaning and they have great power.


A generally accepted banality ... despite the claim not being supported universally across time and space.

Christ, the Word Incarnate ... superfluous if words have the power you attribute to them.


If my words are not confirmed by personal experience ... ignore my words ... Confucius.



The genesis of Zen philosophy was "learning without words"
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby derleydoo » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:03 am

I would argue that words are extraordinarily powerful.
You could use words in any order you choose. Your words could not hurt me.
I have two daughters. Both have the capacity to use words in such a way as to hurt me. Words are very powerful. Dynamic, They should be used with caution. They should be licenced.
If you wish to use words in a public place, You should first of all have to say why you wish to use words in a public place. You must have a good reason. There is no good reason for suggesting that Slavery is good. Thinking yourself a genius is no excuse. Words are dynamic. They carry a lifetime of experience. People have been using words since shortly after the first person to formulate words. Mate! How powerful was he! When first he spoke, everyone said, what did he say?
Using words to hurt the people who gave you life should be a no no,
It's a personal view, I'll grant you.
I'm pissed.
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:13 am

derleydoo wrote:I would argue that words are extraordinarily powerful.
You could use words in any order you choose. Your words could not hurt me.
I have two daughters. Both have the capacity to use words in such a way as to hurt me. Words are very powerful. Dynamic, They should be used with caution. They should be licenced.
If you wish to use words in a public place, You should first of all have to say why you wish to use words in a public place. You must have a good reason. There is no good reason for suggesting that Slavery is good. Thinking yourself a genius is no excuse. Words are dynamic. They carry a lifetime of experience. People have been using words since shortly after the first person to formulate words. Mate! How powerful was he! When first he spoke, everyone said, what did he say?
Using words to hurt the people who gave you life should be a no no,
It's a personal view, I'll grant you.
I'm pissed.


Insightful comments ... is being 'pissed' help? :)

Several of your comments are rooted in observations ... the manifestations of the impact of 'words' in certain situations. The fact that identical words have absolutely no effect when arriving from different sources confirms that the words in and of themselves have no power.

We attribute the 'power' to the words because we have no other acceptable explanation. Logic suggests the 'words' are simply the conduit of some mysterious power.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby derleydoo » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:42 pm

PST: Insightful comments ... is being 'pissed' help?

Someone removed the, "DO NOT USE THIS COMPUTER WHEN PISSED" sign!
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby phyllo » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:18 pm

We attribute the 'power' to the words because we have no other acceptable explanation. Logic suggests the 'words' are simply the conduit of some mysterious power.
Nothing mysterious. Words are symbols. They are used to transfer thoughts from one person to another.
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:46 pm

phyllo wrote:
We attribute the 'power' to the words because we have no other acceptable explanation. Logic suggests the 'words' are simply the conduit of some mysterious power.
Nothing mysterious. Words are symbols. They are used to transfer thoughts from one person to another.


A pragmatic truth ...

Yet for me, there's merit in exploring a much broader function ... for example ... the Freudian Slip

Freudian Slip.jpg
Freudian Slip.jpg (66.46 KiB) Viewed 1180 times
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arminius » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:01 am

Or is it called a "Sleudian frip"?

:wink:

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:19 am

[quote="Arminius"]Or is it called a "Sleudian frip"?

:wink:

Now das is powerful words. :-)

Readers who maybe be interested in how one might start exploring a broader function of words ... Jordan Peterson offers an interesting preamble ... IMHO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28i3lWxW5xs
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:43 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom

Words do have meaning and they have great power.

A generally accepted banality ...


Have you ever taken the time to see what lies below the iceberg?



Tell that to the mediator whose words have settled countless disputes to the satisfaction of all parties.

Tell that to the negotiator whose words have saved the lives of many hostages.

Tell that to the police person who has managed to talk a teenager off the roof when all he or she wanted was to jump.

Tell that to the diplomat whose words have soothed the savage beast between nations.

Tell that to all people who have read the works of the poets and been awe-inspired.

Tell that to the people who have read Science and Philosophy books and who have been inspired to follow suit.

Tell that to the children who have been consoled by their parents when it takes much more than just a hug.

Tell that to the leaders of the French Revolution or any revolution whose passionate speeches have paved the way for freedom.

...ad continuum.


...despite the claim not being supported universally across time and space.


See above. I rest my case.

If words have such little meaning to you, I might suggest that you join a monastery where the monks take a vow of silence. You needn't really become a monk - simply commit yourself to the monastery and working toward their upkeep. Perhaps they might allow you to plant a garden of vegetables or pick the apples or oranges off of the trees. You might want to donate a certain amount of money to get in the door.


How is this for a generally-accepted banality: "What we see is who we are"!


Logic suggests the 'words' are simply the conduit of some mysterious power.


Then that would not be logic but magical thinking.

I suppose that you might also believe that the Universe[s] came into existence through your God uttering the words "Let There Be Light".
Is that YOUR belief? #-o
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:43 pm

If words have such little meaning to you, I might suggest that you join a monastery where the monks take a vow of silence. You needn't really become a monk - simply commit yourself to the monastery and working toward their upkeep. Perhaps they might allow you to plant a garden of vegetables or pick the apples or oranges off of the trees. You might want to donate a certain amount of money to get in the door.


I've been living in a virtual monastery under a vow of silence for the past 12 years ... I attribute much of my new pool of thought to these circumstances. I've finally seriously engaged in garden activity this past summer ... yet another enlightening experience ... nothing like getting your hands dirty. :-) My OP ... Spirituality ... Garden as Metaphor viewtopic.php?f=5&t=192891


How is this for a generally-accepted banality: "What we see is who we are"!



Quite banal! :-) ... banal as in synonym for the word unimaginative.

Throughout human history countless people have spent a considerable part of their lives trying to answer the question ... "Who am I ?" ... though most people don't even get to the question.

Your tag or whatever the proper word for the label ... "Consciousness Seeker" implies you have asked yourself the question though I don't see much evidence of any serious attempt to answer it in your posts ... the posts I've read.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:46 pm

"Consciousness Seeker" implies you have asked yourself the question though I don't see much evidence of any serious attempt to answer it in your posts ... the posts I've read.


So, when you read the phrase *Consciousness Seeker*, the only meaningful question which you would apply to it is "Who Am I"? Is that it? You would be surprised just how deeply I dive into that question.

Aside from that, many or most of my posts have nothing to do with answering that question ~~ Who Am I ~~ though I have to some degree given a glimmer of myself.

You are certainly entitled to your *uninformed* opinion though as per your quote.

Do you even realize that you have a sly way of using smilies to benefit yourself? They are not in harmony with the things which you say or try to convey. Perhaps you are not even *conscious* of it. I would suggest that you do some deep-sea *diving* into yourself.
Last edited by Arcturus Descending on Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“How can a bird that is born for joy
Sit in a cage and sing?”
― William Blake


“Little Fly
Thy summers play,
My thoughtless hand
Has brush'd away.

Am not I
A fly like thee?
Or art not thou
A man like me?

For I dance
And drink & sing:
Till some blind hand
Shall brush my wing.

If thought is life
And strength & breath:
And the want
Of thought is death;

Then am I
A happy fly,
If I live,
Or if I die”
― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


“No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
― William Blake
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby gib » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:02 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Your tag or whatever the proper word for the label ... "Consciousness Seeker" implies you have asked yourself the question though I don't see much evidence of any serious attempt to answer it in your posts ... the posts I've read.


You've noticed that too, huh?
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Men must be taught as if you taught them not. And things unknown proposed as things forgot.
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Here lies the body of William J, who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sped along, but he's just as dead as if he were wrong.
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby phyllo » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:22 pm

Maybe you guys ought to be a little less nasty and a little more charitable.

And one might also add more philosophical.
phyllo
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