Weakness is strength??

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:36 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:Pilgrim Tom,

The below caught my eye...

A bad decision is better than no decision. Pick a horse ... get on it and ride ... you will eventually know.


It seems almost to be a mantra which you are adopting. You repeated the words at least a few times.

You first made the remark as per the idea of which was more important - imagination or knowledge.

So, my question to you is: Does one size fit all here?
Do you believe, feel, intuit that in all situations and circumstances the best decision is simply to make a decision ~ that even a bad decision is better than no decision?
Is this what your experience and cognitive thinking has taught you?

Even if you are ONLY thinking in terms of principals and ideas, is this the way you would go:
A bad decision is better than no decision. Pick a horse ... get on it and ride ... you will eventually know

I am a skeptic. I do not roll that way.

I will wait for your answer before I go on.


Your post may have the potential to start a meaningful digital conversation.

Backdrop:

1) I'm a small town, small minded old man.

2) My only comfort in my old age is my pursuit of Truth.

3) I genuinely believe ... rightly or wrongly ... at some point along the road words are no longer helpful ... in fact they are harmful.

On to your question ...

So, my question to you is: Does one size fit all here?


Obviously not ... the notion of individuation refutes this possibility.


I was not speaking of individuation with my above quote. I was speaking of actions having consequences in response to your "A bad decision is better than no decision."

...at some point along the road words are no longer helpful ... in fact they are harmful.


Yes, that is one aspect of a diamond.
I borrowed a term from someone in this forum. He used it quite awhile back. I cannot recall who it was but there was wisdom within the term/thought/decision. He said that he was trying to be a more "kind agnostic"
It gave me much food for thought insofar as my being an agnostic and not a christian anymore though at times I do fail in this regard.

So, I do agree with you insofar as this aspect goes. Some words can become harmful even within the minds of philosophers if they are Christians. It isn't always such an easy thing to balance and to be kind when it comes to presenting our own subjective thinking (even if we intuit that we are being objective). But "Who has known the Mind of God".

As Yeats said, we have to "balance all, call all to mind" (I so love and appreciate that phrase) so at the end of the day ~~ robbing someone of something which will NOT be harmful to them AND at the same time WILL allow them their freedom to worship in joy and afford them some comfort in the moment ~~ makes no rational sense and is unkind.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby encode_decode » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:43 pm

    OK children, all I can see from the weakness exposed in this thread is weakness.

    I see no strength in this thread. Only weakness . . .

    So what is the real point of this thread? The OP doesn't cover it . . .

    Can we say with honesty that this thread is philosophical? Give an example . . .

    Please don't ask me for a definition of how I am using the word "we".
    It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
    (Anomaly654 - 2017)

    But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
    - which is to say there is always meaning.

    (gib - 2017)

    Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
    (Myself - 2017)
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    Re: Weakness is strength??

    Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:49 am

    Arc ... so much for the potential I intuited in my earlier post. :cry:

    I have posted more than once ... something to the effect ... the ILP community, individually and collectively have yuge potential.

    The sad truth is most of the active posters spend their talents hissing and clawing at each other.

    Hissing and clawing.jpg
    Hissing and clawing.jpg (17.11 KiB) Viewed 450 times


    I long for the day the same people will direct their talents to the greater good of humanity ... beyond the tiny community of the privileged.
    "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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    Re: Weakness is strength??

    Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:05 am

    encode_decode wrote:
      OK children, all I can see from the weakness exposed in this thread is weakness.

      I see no strength in this thread. Only weakness . . .

      So what is the real point of this thread? The OP doesn't cover it . . .

      Can we say with honesty that this thread is philosophical? Give an example . . .

      Please don't ask me for a definition of how I am using the word "we".


      Aaron is the following image a correct understanding of your intention with this post?

      dog-pissing-on-a-disgruntled-and-startled-fire-hydrant.jpg
      dog-pissing-on-a-disgruntled-and-startled-fire-hydrant.jpg (115.17 KiB) Viewed 448 times
      "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

      Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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      Re: Weakness is strength??

      Postby encode_decode » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:23 pm

        pilgrim-seeker_tom

        That is not what I was meaning. I can see why you may think that.

        I will change my inquiry.

        I am wondering how much closer we are getting to the idea that weakness is strength.

        :-k
        It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
        (Anomaly654 - 2017)

        But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
        - which is to say there is always meaning.

        (gib - 2017)

        Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
        (Myself - 2017)
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        Re: Weakness is strength??

        Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:26 pm

        encode_decode wrote:
          pilgrim-seeker_tom

          That is not what I was meaning. I can see why you may think that.

          I will change my inquiry.

          I am wondering how much closer we are getting to the idea that weakness is strength.

          :-k


          Aaron ... as I mentioned to Ecmandu in a separate post ... individuals often express their frustration with personal failure(s) in unpleasant ways. :-)

          I am wondering how much closer we are getting to the idea that weakness is strength.


          I have been there for a long time ... only you can know if you are getting any closer. I have no interest in pulling people into my thought orbits ... only happy to share my opinions with the hope that sharing may help some genuine seekers.

          Nonetheless ... here's a skeleton of thought ... since I have no access to AI my language is much clumsier than yours. :-)

          Like Minded.JPG
          Weakness is Strength
          Like Minded.JPG (21.83 KiB) Viewed 406 times


          1) A represents the totality of what I am at this particular moment.

          2) C represents the totality of my potential ... it being constant across time and space ... ergo an unlimited number of lifetimes.

          3) The intersection of A and C represents the portion of my potential I have realized so far ... how many lifetimes it took to get there is an unknown.

          4) Surrender of some part of myself is required to create the necessary space for internalization of more potential. It's the empty space in the rice bowl that provides utility. Surrender is weakness.

          5) Realizing more potential is strength.
          "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby phyllo » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:43 am

          Didn't you use that diagram already to represent "like-mindedness"? How can it now represent "weakness is strength"?
          1) A represents the totality of what I am at this particular moment.

          2) C represents the totality of my potential ... it being constant across time and space ... ergo an unlimited number of lifetimes.

          3) The intersection of A and C represents the portion of my potential I have realized so far ... how many lifetimes it took to get there is an unknown.

          4) Surrender of some part of myself is required to create the necessary space for internalization of more potential. It's the empty space in the rice bowl that provides utility. Surrender is weakness.

          5) Realizing more potential is strength.
          Isn't the part of yourself that you surrender also a part of your potential? If not then what is it?

          If you kept that part and also "expanded", then would your achievement not be greater?
          "Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
          "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
          "Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
          "Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:03 am

          phyllo wrote:Didn't you use that diagram already to represent "like-mindedness"? How can it now represent "weakness is strength"?

          "Elementary my dear Watson!" Sherlock Holmes


          Individuals who have achieved similar portions of the totality of their individual potential must as a consequence be like minded.


          phyllo wrote:If you kept that part and also "expanded", then would your achievement not be greater?


          A glass of water that is full to the brim yet continues to take in more water spills over ... n'est-ce pas?
          "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby phyllo » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:18 am

          Individuals who have achieved similar portions of the totality of their individual potential must as a consequence be like minded.
          :o Once again these individuals sounds strangely alike. My skepticism of the merits of "like-mindedness" still stands.
          A glass of water that is full to the brim yet continues to take in more water spills over ... n'est-ce pas?
          Well, if it's full of water and you are only pouring in more water, then a full glass of water is "totality of potential".

          For the analogy to make sense, you would have to fill it with something other than what is already there. for example, emptying out water and filling with wine.

          :-k But then you would have to explain why wine is better than water.
          "Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
          "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
          "Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
          "Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby phyllo » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:29 am

          I also have to say that "totality of potential" sounds a lot like "destiny" which spans multiple reincarnations. A person's entire existence seems to be completely determined from the beginning of his/her "first life".

          "Surrender" merely accelerates the journey towards the destination.

          So, once you reach the "totality of potential", what happens besides no longer being reborn.
          "Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
          "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
          "Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
          "Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:47 am

          phyllo wrote:I also have to say that "totality of potential" sounds a lot like "destiny" which spans multiple reincarnations. A person's entire existence seems to be completely determined from the beginning of his/her "first life".

          "Surrender" merely accelerates the journey towards the destination.

          So, once you reach the "totality of potential", what happens besides no longer being reborn.


          =D> =D> =D>

          Seems your subconscious is forcing you to try and understand my thoughts ... despite the resistance of your conscious mind. really neat stuff Phyllo.

          Who said individuals who reach the "totality of potential" no longer are reborn?

          Who will help the rest of humanity still on the road home? :-)
          "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby phyllo » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:00 am

          It's pretty standard Buddhist stuff.

          You use some different words and phrases. Don't know why you do that.
          "Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
          "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
          "Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
          "Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby phyllo » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:05 am

          I don't believe in destiny. 8)
          "Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
          "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
          "Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
          "Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:31 am

          phyllo wrote:It's pretty standard Buddhist stuff.

          You use some different words and phrases. Don't know why you do that.


          It may have the odor of Buddhist stuff ... but it sure as hell isn't Buddhist stuff ... Buddhists are selfish :-)
          "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:33 am

          phyllo wrote:I don't believe in destiny. 8)


          Constipation of consciousness?? :-)

          Phyllo ... I prefer your posts ... they seem genuinely spontaneous. Some other people who respond to my posts seem to plug my comments into their AI algorithms and poke around for an appropriate response.
          "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:34 am

          phyllo wrote:
          I don't believe in destiny. 8)


          Phyllo ... your comment is swimming around in my head ... and I can't swim. :-)

          I'm with you if destiny is defined as a pre written script that we simply act out in our lifetime. May be true yet for me it's incredible as well.

          What if destiny is intended to simply say ... another shot at realizing one's potential ... with infinite possibilities waiting for us to bring them to life as we wander through the darkness.?
          "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby phyllo » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:31 pm

          I'm with you if destiny is defined as a pre written script that we simply act out in our lifetime. May be true yet for me it's incredible as well.

          What if destiny is intended to simply say ... another shot at realizing one's potential ... with infinite possibilities waiting for us to bring them to life as we wander through the darkness.?
          Well, you said that it is in effect 'pre-written" :

          "2) C represents the totality of my potential ... it being constant across time and space ... ergo an unlimited number of lifetimes."

          Chopping up the time, to get to totality, into lifetimes is really no different than chopping up one life into years and months until a destiny is fulfilled.

          I think that personal potential is always in flux, changing with every event that comes our way and with every decision we make. Thus we create our own destinies.
          "Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
          "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
          "Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
          "Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby phyllo » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:37 pm

          pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
          phyllo wrote:It's pretty standard Buddhist stuff.

          You use some different words and phrases. Don't know why you do that.


          It may have the odor of Buddhist stuff ... but it sure as hell isn't Buddhist stuff ... Buddhists are selfish :-)
          All humans are selfish. Buddhists are human just like everyone else. I don't see them as any more or less selfish.

          How does "your stuff" move beyond selfishness?
          "Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
          "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
          "Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
          "Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:09 pm

          pilgrim-seeker_tom

          Arc ... so much for the potential I intuited in my earlier post. :cry:


          So sorry to have disappointed you. C'est dommage. What can I say - I am like the ocean. I ebb and I flow.


          I have posted more than once ... something to the effect ... the ILP community, individually and collectively have yuge potential.

          The sad truth is most of the active posters spend their talents hissing and clawing at each other.


          I would not say *most*. But I have also made a comment here and there about the sad state of affairs at times of the posters' postings ~ in my own words.

          I might have in those moments actually admonished myself in the way in which I shall now admonish you:

          "Do not see the beam in others' eyes, PST, until you can see it in your own".

          [Soliloquy] That goes for you, too, Arc.


          You, PST, just have a more subtle sly way of doing it albeit your hissing and claws are there too.



          I long for the day the same people will direct their talents to the greater good of humanity ... beyond the tiny community of the privileged.

          Then be a part of the solution, not the problem.

          Weakness, in and of itself, is not strength but it does have the potential to change/transform itself when certain catalysts appear and act upon it.

          Then again, what we may assume/presume or intuit as being weakness, may be nothing more than our own projection and/or lack of *seeing* things as they really are. Appearances can be quite deceiving.


          Since this thread has become a bit like a farce to me (only my opinion) and more toxic than I would wish to encounter, I am going to bow out of it.
          SAPERE AUDE!


          If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


          What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

          Thomas Nagel


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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:12 pm

          Since this thread has become a bit like a farce to me (only my opinion) and more toxic than I would wish to encounter, I am going to bow out of it.


          A facade of you participated in this OP though you were never really in it. :-)
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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:19 pm

          phyllo wrote:
          I'm with you if destiny is defined as a pre written script that we simply act out in our lifetime. May be true yet for me it's incredible as well.

          What if destiny is intended to simply say ... another shot at realizing one's potential ... with infinite possibilities waiting for us to bring them to life as we wander through the darkness.?
          Well, you said that it is in effect 'pre-written" :

          "2) C represents the totality of my potential ... it being constant across time and space ... ergo an unlimited number of lifetimes."

          Chopping up the time, to get to totality, into lifetimes is really no different than chopping up one life into years and months until a destiny is fulfilled.

          I think that personal potential is always in flux, changing with every event that comes our way and with every decision we make. Thus we create our own destinies.


          Phyllo ... my language is clumsy ... really clumsy :-)

          I have some "stuff" inside that I'm trying to get out by reducing it to words ... the "stuff" I'm talking about may or may not have any merit/value.
          "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:30 pm

          phyllo wrote:
          pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
          phyllo wrote:It's pretty standard Buddhist stuff.

          You use some different words and phrases. Don't know why you do that.


          It may have the odor of Buddhist stuff ... but it sure as hell isn't Buddhist stuff ... Buddhists are selfish :-)


          All humans are selfish. Agreed Buddhists are human just like everyone else. AgreedI don't see them as any more or less selfish.Buddhist theology encourages selfishness ... waking it up in individuals where it otherwise may lay dormant.




          phyllo wrote:How does "your stuff" move beyond selfishness?
          I don't see it as "my stuff". :-)
          "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby phyllo » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:02 pm

          Buddhist theology encourages selfishness ... waking it up in individuals where it otherwise may lay dormant.
          It mostly deals with identifying and eliminating suffering. Is that bad?
          I don't see it as "my stuff". :-)
          You have assembled a philosophy based on your personal experiences - Canada, China, Christianity, Tao, Buddhism, etc, etc - so it's "your stuff" now.
          "Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
          "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
          "Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
          "Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:33 pm

          phyllo wrote:
          Buddhist theology encourages selfishness ... waking it up in individuals where it otherwise may lay dormant.
          It mostly deals with identifying and eliminating suffering. Is that bad? Yes ... suffering is a necessary component human growth ... the pain of childbirth ... for both the mother and the infant point to this Truth.
          I don't see it as "my stuff". :-)
          You have assembled a philosophy based on your personal experiences - Canada, China, Christianity, Tao, Buddhism, etc, etc - so it's "your stuff" now.
          Language ... can't find the smile for "sigh" :-)

          My experiences are not "my experiences" ... ownership rests with the Author of my experiences. :-)
          "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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          Re: Weakness is strength??

          Postby phyllo » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:48 pm

          Yes ... suffering is a necessary component human growth ... the pain of childbirth ... for both the mother and the infant point to this Truth.
          Childbirth doesn't change, only how you view it changes.

          Christianity isn't much different in that respect. Nor are some major philosophy schools.
          My experiences are not "my experiences" ... ownership rests with the Author of my experiences. :-)
          What do you own? Nothing?
          "Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
          "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
          "Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
          "Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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