Weakness is strength??

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Meno_ » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:03 pm

But it's an unimaginably complex paradox, relieve it's limit causes the imago loose the power of it's focus.
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Meno_ » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:05 pm

How?
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Meno_ » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:05 pm

The inverse proportionality in play .
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby phyllo » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:24 pm

I think both must be true in different ways. How 'bout this: Phyllo is right in that we all must be challenged in order to grow (no pain, no gain), but you're right Mags in that we all must have a support system in order to grow. Going out and meeting the challenges of un-like minded people is the gathering of material for growth. Returning to your peers and support group is how to best utilize that material for growth. Without material, there isn't much to grow on, even if you have the best support group in the world. But without a support group, it's difficult to know how to utilize the material for your own growth, even if you have an iron resolve to do so. The support group provides guidance, a different (perhaps objective) perspective, and also rejuvinates your confidence in case the challenges take too much of a toll on you.
I think that the "like-minded people" concept goes beyond simply getting support and avoiding negative and toxic interactions. It's also a way of avoiding points of view and ideas that you don't agree with. This includes POVs and ideas which are reasonable and unreasonable. And it also includes POVs and ideas which are abhorrent and ought to be confronted.

This weekend I was reading about the victims of the Las Vegas shooting ... they are getting hate messages on social media from conspiracy theorists who are calling them fakers and actors.
Those conspiracy theorists are hanging out with like-minded people. They are living in a bubble that feeds their particular thinking patterns. The internet makes it easier than ever. :evil:
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:54 pm

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:44 am

Meno_ wrote:But it's an unimaginably complex paradox, relieve it's limit causes the imago loose the power of it's focus.


Meno ... yet another example of your keen insight. =D>

Let me take your thought one step further ... it starts with "loose the power of it's focus" ... it progresses to the death of the prior "image (ination) ... a necessary outcome.

The cycle ... birth/death/birth/death/birth/death ad infinitum is self evident in nature.

NT

It is a fact that a grain of wheat must fall to the ground and die before it can grow and produce much more wheat.


The same cycle is self evident in our daily lives ... I favour St Augustine's example ... conversation

In human conversation the sound of each word we utter must die in order to create a womb for the gestation of the next sound. The process happens so fast we are unaware of the cycle.
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby gib » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:48 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:To1 be2 true3 to4 my5 personal6 conviction7 ... imagination8 is9 superior10 to11 knowledge12 ... it13 is14 better15 to16 encourage17 you18 to19 use20 your21 imagination22 for23 the24 1025 words26. :-)<-- Not a word.


The first twelve words suffice. Then next 14 are a cop out. I don't see how the first 12 amount to 'help' though.

I'm thinking maybe Arc is onto something (as much of a shock as that is! :o ).

phyllo wrote:He will imagine it completely from his own limited perspective.

He can't get out of the sack that confines his imagination unless someone shows him some other ways of imagining.


Hey! :evil:

phyllo wrote:I think that the "like-minded people" concept goes beyond simply getting support and avoiding negative and toxic interactions. It's also a way of avoiding points of view and ideas that you don't agree with. This includes POVs and ideas which are reasonable and unreasonable. And it also includes POVs and ideas which are abhorrent and ought to be confronted.

This weekend I was reading about the victims of the Las Vegas shooting ... they are getting hate messages on social media from conspiracy theorists who are calling them fakers and actors.
Those conspiracy theorists are hanging out with like-minded people. They are living in a bubble that feeds their particular thinking patterns. The internet makes it easier than ever. :evil:


So the take home message is: you gotta have both--you've got to challenge yourself with exposure to opposing, possibly disconcerting, points of view, but at the same time, you need a support group in order to balance yourself out with external, possibly objective, points of view. The groupthink that occurs with prejudices and biases, like those accusing the Vegas shooting victims, could probably do with a few members of the group going out to seek different points of view and challenge their original thoughts.

Do you think if this happens, the group's original prejudices and biases will tend to dilute and depolarize?

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:In human conversation the sound of each word we utter must die in order to create a womb for the gestation of the next sound. The process happens so fast we are unaware of the cycle.


Huh?
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:13 am

I'm thinking maybe Arc is onto something (as much of a shock as that is! :o ).


Gib ... you may be right ... though I can't imagine what ... tried imagining the shock you mentioned ... come up blank as well. Will try again later.

You're on to something with cop out though ... not sure if I was just being lazy or simply not in the mood ... as in didn't see any merit in making the effort ... still don't.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
In human conversation the sound of each word we utter must die in order to create a womb for the gestation of the next sound. The process happens so fast we are unaware of the cycle.


Huh?

You'll need to contact the author of the quote(paraphrased) for an explanation ... now that will require some imagination. :-)
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:02 am

“For a sentence is not complete unless each word, once its syllables have been pronounced, gives way to make room for the next...They are set up on the course of their existence, and the faster they climb towards its zenith, the more they hasten towards the point where they exist no more.”


St Augustine ... Confessions

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:19 am

Why did I mention the quote from Augustine?

In the process of awakening ... expanded awareness ... expanded consciousness ... stuff that we have clung to ... perhaps for a very long time ... must pass away ... fade into the shadows of memory ... for a higher level of consciousness to replace the former.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby gib » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:56 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:You're on to something with cop out though ... not sure if I was just being lazy or simply not in the mood ... as in didn't see any merit in making the effort ... still don't.


Well, let's not worry about that. Your other words:

"To be true to my personal conviction ... imagination is superior to knowledge"

...are supposed to be an expansion of "help". So are you asking for help to stay true to your personal convictions?
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
- surreptitious75

The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
- encode_decode

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby phyllo » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:10 pm

phyllo wrote:
He will imagine it completely from his own limited perspective.

He can't get out of the sack that confines his imagination unless someone shows him some other ways of imagining.



Hey! :evil:

I mean that in the nicest way possible, of course. O:)
Do you think if this happens, the group's original prejudices and biases will tend to dilute and depolarize?
Yes. I think that they will have to rethink based on the input from other people. Their adaption could be to become more disconnected and isolated or to absorb the input and become more moderate. The hard-core members will probably remain the same or become even more extreme but the rest will either stay if the median beliefs of the group change or they will leave the group.
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:32 pm

gib wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:You're on to something with cop out though ... not sure if I was just being lazy or simply not in the mood ... as in didn't see any merit in making the effort ... still don't.


Well, let's not worry about that. Your other words:

"To be true to my personal conviction ... imagination is superior to knowledge"

...are supposed to be an expansion of "help". So are you asking for help to stay true to your personal convictions?


Gib ... I only have one conviction I really care about ... I shared it in another OP in response to a question from you.

Your comments remind me of Elijah ... the OT guy. Philosophy has been embedded in religion for a very long time ... perhaps since the beginning.

Somewhere near the Biblical Mount Carmel event Elijah said ...

How long will you people limp along with two opinions?


We know the religious intention of his words ... what are the philosophical implications?

A "will" divided is weaker (limp along) than a single unified will. Yes or no? :-)
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby gib » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:28 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:A "will" divided is weaker (limp along) than a single unified will. Yes or no? :-)


Of course! A will divided will conflict with itself stifling its own goals. Is that what this thread is about?
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It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
- surreptitious75

The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
- encode_decode

Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:48 am

gib wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:A "will" divided is weaker (limp along) than a single unified will. Yes or no? :-)


Of course! A will divided will conflict with itself stifling its own goals. Is that what this thread is about?


Huh?

A "will" divided points to a reluctant saint. :-)
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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:07 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Why did I mention the quote from Augustine?

In the process of awakening ... expanded awareness ... expanded consciousness ... stuff that we have clung to ... perhaps for a very long time ... must pass away ... fade into the shadows of memory ... for a higher level of consciousness to replace the former.


But which actually comes first - the higher level of consciousness or the detachment from things/ideas/emotions which are not important? You seem to be putting the cart before the horse here.


I like it better the way Robert Frost uttered and wrote it as opposed to Augustine...

Nothing Gold Can Stay
Robert Frost, 1874 - 1963

Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay

"It is appropriate for us to adopt a positive attitude toward nature because God has created it".


Was Augustine speaking here of "human" nature or Nature?
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:32 pm

Pilgrim Tom,

The below caught my eye...

A bad decision is better than no decision. Pick a horse ... get on it and ride ... you will eventually know.


It seems almost to be a mantra which you are adopting. You repeated the words at least a few times.

You first made the remark as per the idea of which was more important - imagination or knowledge.

So, my question to you is: Does one size fit all here?
Do you believe, feel, intuit that in all situations and circumstances the best decision is simply to make a decision ~ that even a bad decision is better than no decision?
Is this what your experience and cognitive thinking has taught you?

Even if you are ONLY thinking in terms of principals and ideas, is this the way you would go:
A bad decision is better than no decision. Pick a horse ... get on it and ride ... you will eventually know

I am a skeptic. I do not roll that way.

I will wait for your answer before I go on.
Last edited by Arcturus Descending on Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Weakness is strength??

Postby encode_decode » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:36 pm

    Arcturus Descending

    The following caught my eye . . .

    Arcturus Descending wrote:Is this what your experience and cognitive thinking has taught you?

    I will wait for your answer before I go on.

    What other thinking is there that is not cognitive? I already know the answer/s.

    :D
      Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

      It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
      (Anomaly654 - 2017)

      But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
      - which is to say there is always meaning.

      (gib - 2017)

      Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
      (Myself - 2017)
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      Re: Weakness is strength??

      Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:43 pm

      encode_decode wrote:
        Arcturus Descending

        The following caught my eye . . .

        Arcturus Descending wrote:Is this what your experience and cognitive thinking has taught you?

        I will wait for your answer before I go on.

        What other thinking is there that is not cognitive? I already know the answer/s.

        :D


        l. Irrational thinking.
        2. Thinking that is not well thought out.
        3. Thinking that ONLY serves the purpose of the one who is doing the thinking - like magical thinking or biased subjective thinking.

        ...ad continuum.

        All 3 above relate to his statement - but that is just my opinion. There does not seem to be any ethics applied to it.

        I will await his reply.
        SAPERE AUDE!


        If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


        What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

        Thomas Nagel


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        Re: Weakness is strength??

        Postby encode_decode » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:45 pm

          In the meantime . . .

          Mind is a pattern

          Image

          The image represents a thought
            Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

            It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
            (Anomaly654 - 2017)

            But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
            - which is to say there is always meaning.

            (gib - 2017)

            Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
            (Myself - 2017)
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            Re: Weakness is strength??

            Postby gib » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:22 pm

            pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:A "will" divided points to a reluctant saint. :-)


            Ooooh, I get it. Yeah. That problem will be resolved after the summer of 2018, when I intend to quit all drugs and alcohol for at least a year (more like a year and a half).
            My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

            It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
            Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
            - surreptitious75

            The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
            - encode_decode

            Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
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            Re: Weakness is strength??

            Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:03 am

            Was Augustine speaking here of "human" nature or Nature?


            I think the source of the comment you are referring to is the person commenting on Augustine's actual words. I don't know for certain.

            Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

            Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
            "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

            Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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            Re: Weakness is strength??

            Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:15 am

            Arcturus Descending wrote:Pilgrim Tom,

            The below caught my eye...

            A bad decision is better than no decision. Pick a horse ... get on it and ride ... you will eventually know.


            It seems almost to be a mantra which you are adopting. You repeated the words at least a few times.

            You first made the remark as per the idea of which was more important - imagination or knowledge.

            So, my question to you is: Does one size fit all here?
            Do you believe, feel, intuit that in all situations and circumstances the best decision is simply to make a decision ~ that even a bad decision is better than no decision?
            Is this what your experience and cognitive thinking has taught you?

            Even if you are ONLY thinking in terms of principals and ideas, is this the way you would go:
            A bad decision is better than no decision. Pick a horse ... get on it and ride ... you will eventually know

            I am a skeptic. I do not roll that way.

            I will wait for your answer before I go on.


            Your post may have the potential to start a meaningful digital conversation.

            Backdrop:

            1) I'm a small town, small minded old man.

            2) My only comfort in my old age is my pursuit of Truth.

            3) I genuinely believe ... rightly or wrongly ... at some point along the road words are no longer helpful ... in fact they are harmful.

            On to your question ...

            So, my question to you is: Does one size fit all here?


            Obviously not ... the notion of individuation refutes this possibility.
            "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

            Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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            Re: Weakness is strength??

            Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:24 am

            gib wrote:
            pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:A "will" divided points to a reluctant saint. :-)


            Ooooh, I get it. Yeah. That problem will be resolved after the summer of 2018, when I intend to quit all drugs and alcohol for at least a year (more like a year and a half).


            Gib ... drugs and alcohol are an important component of your journey.

            I learned yesterday ... listened to a bit of Jordan Petersen ... apparently he reveres Dostoevsky ... and apparently Dostoevsky's insights came just before an epileptic fit. While I have never witnessed an epileptic fit ... my impression is they are not pleasant. Apparently Dostoevsky said he would gladly exchange all his other life experiences for epileptic fits ... suggests he enjoyed his insights.

            I digress ... my feeling is the time will come when you least expect it. :-)
            "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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            Re: Weakness is strength??

            Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:26 am

            encode_decode wrote:
              In the meantime . . .

              Mind is a pattern

              Image

              The image represents a thought


              Aaron ... I'm not ignoring you ... just feel you are well past the point where words can help. Certainly words can help your AI project but I'm more interested in "I" than "AI" :-)
              "Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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