a new philosophy

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a new philosophy

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:48 pm

Am I so bold as to proclaim a new philosophy?
Why yes, I am...

the universe flows from order to disorder and back again....
we can think of the universe and all the parts of the universe as being
on some stage between order and disorder.... everything is along the line
between order and disorder......

the next idea we need to understand is about systems......
we and everything in the universe is in a system of some sort...
and even our bodies are systems.....

we have various systems within the human body...
we have among other systems in the body,
the cardiovascular/circulatory system,
digestive/excretory system
endocrine system
lymphatic/ immune system...
these are some of the systems that exist within the human body....

and we can include into this idea of systems the solar system and the galaxy systems
and even the universe.... so we have this very large systems and we have the very small

just as we have the large and the small within the universe....

you exist on planet earth as you are part of the earths system
and the earth exists as part of the solar system which exist as
part of the galaxy system and so on but we can go down also.....
from the galaxy to the solar to the earth to you to even smaller as
dogs and then ants and then even smaller all the way down to atoms...
this is important to note, we have large systems and we have small systems....
what connects them? they are all connected and interconnected......as they exist
inside of each other like Russian Matryoshka dolls.........

every single system is at some point on the line between order
and disorder....... so what allows a system to continues?

that is the second brick in the wall.....

how do humans maintain their system?
we eat and drink and breath.... that eating and drinking and breathing are
resources of some sorts... we eat food, that is a resource, we drink water,
that is a resource, we breath air, that is a resource.... so resources such as
food, air and water allow us to maintain our system.... as we are just like
every single other system, that means every single system also requires
resources....now the resources any given system needs might be different but
every single system needs those resources to exist..... what are resources?

this is the interesting part.... a resource for a system could be anything....
we have as our resources for our system as being food and water and air but systems can
also use energy, fuel, time, money, effort, space are all resources needed for various
systems.....in other words, systems can use a wide variety of things as resources needed
to exist.........this is important to remember......

so let us return to the human body.... as I have aged, systems have gone from
ordered to disordered... as I grow old, my body doesn't work as well... my knees
are shot, my back is always hurting, I need hip replacements on at least one hip...
whereas in the past, my body work and worked very well as I ran cross country and
track and I rock climbed and I backpacked in the mountains... my body was in order...
it worked quite well... now my body is moving to disordered as everything living
does....when I was young, I could stay up all night drinking and still went to work the
next day and I could abuse my body and it was no big deal........as I age, to maintain
what I have now (which doesn't work that well) I need to put in greater resources
then I did when I was younger... I need resources like time and effort to accomplish
today, what I did with no effort when I was younger....I need resources like sleep
much more then when I was younger.. it takes greater effort to maintain my current
state then it did when I was younger....and this is important.....
and that greater effort is increased resources... in other words, to maintain
order in a system, it takes greater resources as the system gets older to maintain
that order....

resources needed to maintain my current state increase has I get older...
and as I am just another system among millions of systems, believe
this to be true of all systems... my body is going from order to disorder and
to maintain my order takes more resources like time, money, effort energy,

at some point, no matter how much resources I use, I cannot maintain my
"order" and thus at that point, I die.. the disorder overcomes the order....
and this is true of everything in the universe..... at some point, disorder overcomes
order..... so does disorder eventually overtakes the universe? Perhaps, that remains
to be seen...

but order is created every single day with the birth of living beings who then
travel from order to disorder which last a lifetime by the way......

but as we have mentioned, we have the large and we have the small
I am describing the small, what about the large? what resources do they
use to get and maintain order.... here is where it gets interesting.....

we have the universe and we have the solar system and we have earth
what are their resources? We call them the 4 forces of physics..
gravity, the electromagnetic, the strong nuclear and the weak nuclear....

the solar system is kept in order by gravity.. our solar system is
keeps revolving around the sun and that is accomplished by gravity,
that gravity is a resource is hard to understand but it is true....as
time is a resource and space is a resource.....in fact, to return to the
human being, time is one of the key resources that help create human beings..
for life to exist, time is a key factor in the creation of life and the
continuation of life......anyway.......so we have the large like the galaxies
and the solar system which use resources like gravity to maintain order....

now we have the underpinning of my philosophy.. we can connect

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6040
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new philosophy

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:40 pm

ok, so we have a basic understanding of the situation...
we have systems which require resources to maintain those
systems in a state of order.... as the systems gets older as in
biological systems, they require more resources to maintain their
order and at some point, no matter how many resources we use,
we cannot prevent the disorder from conquering the order....
as everything is on a sliding line between order and disorder
we need resources to maintain the order, we must think in terms
of resources we need to maintain our systems.........

everything in the universe exist on this scale or line between order
and disorder and everything uses resources to maintain order..
it must mean at some level, order is important....
that everything single thing in the universe tries to maintain
and increase order which means that the goal of the universe is order...
now we don't use "goal" in a "my goal is to win the race" goal
but in terms of the basic theme of the universe is order and
disorder.... it is inherent in the universe, a part of the universe....
that exists regardless of whether we approve or disapprove or even
notice or care... the basic elements of the universe is order vs disorder
and everything in the universe is at some point along the line of order
vs disorder.....

so we can follow the universe and think in terms of order and disorder
in our systems... what systems do we have beside biological systems?
we have political systems which have the same requirements as any
biological system which is to maintain order, the political system needs
resources to maintain itself.....and those resources are time, money, effort,
energy, just like any biological system.... all systems must have resources to
exists, to maintain order, and political systems are no different.....
as systems age they need more resources to maintain their order...

think of a car, as the car ages, it needs to more resources to keep working,
you need to replace the tires and then the spark plugs and then changing the oil,
otherwise the system, the car, will begin to fail, to go from order to disorder and then
if enough disorder enters the system, the car will die and no longer work.... so it is
with any system and biological and otherwise....
think of a human being who needs more resources as we age to maintain our
order, our ability to function.......

so we have political systems....ours is known as democracy.....
we must use resources to maintain order in a democracy and
as a democracy ages, it needs more resources to maintain its basic
order or like a car, it will begin to fail.......we have the energy and
resources to maintain the political system known as democracy...
the question becomes, do we want to?

now we come to a tricky part of systems...
for example, a man and a women, you can use any two people
for this example, decide to become a couple, to become a system...
and like any system, it takes resources to maintain this system..
(I have been married for over 20 years and it does take resources to
maintain the system known as marriage, energy, time, effort, money
are all resources needed to maintain this system of marriage)
now perhaps, at some point, one person or another might come
to a decision point, where they aren't sure if the use of resources isn't
worth the effort to keep the current system alive... the relationship,
the system, may not be worth the energy to keep the system/relationship
alive.....and at that point, the person needs to make a decision as to whether
to keep the relationship alive....... this decision is what I call a "value judgment"
is the relationship/system worth keeping alive given the resources expended to
keep the relationship/system alive......and we all know, sometimes, the answer
is to kill the relationship/system given the fact that one side or another,
has decided the relationship/system isn't worth the effort, time, money,
the resources to keep it alive.... this value judgement is made all the time
on all sorts of systems.... do we pull the plug on this old man because he
is brain dead and cannot survive without the machines? or do we buy a new
car because it is draining our resources? we make value judgements all the time....
the system that we know as our car is no longer worth the resources we are
using to keep it moving, to keep it in order? so we buy another car and get rid
of our car..... we replace one system with another system that uses less resources...
we make a value judgement that we can replace one system that isn't worth
the resources with another system that uses less resources and thus is worth it.....

once again the idea here is a system that we need to keep in order in order
to use that system.....in the past we have used value judgements to decide
if a system be it political or economic or social, is worth the resources
maintain....so we have in the United States, decided against the political system
of monarchy and we have decided against dictatorships as a system... we have
used value judgements to decide on which political system we are using......

our question now is simple..... is democracy worth the resources needed
to maintain its order, worth it?
or is our economic system worth the resources needed to maintain order, worth
it? I have answer both of these questions... I believe democracy is worth
the resources needed to maintain it and capitalism, our economic system,
is not worth the effort, the resources, to maintain its order.....

I have made a value judgment on our political system and a value
judgement on our economic system......

as the primary goal of every system in the universe to maintain the order
of that system, but and this is important... the systems in question don't
make value judgements about their own existence....all they do is attempt
to maintain order in which to prevent disorder... there is no judgement
as to whether keeping that system is "good" or "bad"... no moral judgements
are made as to the value of the system....how are we to judge systems?
systems that operate blindly make no judgements as to their value if they
are "good" or "bad".... they simply are.....we have no standards in which to judge
them......systems just are and they are on that sliding line between order
and disorder....... this makes the universe a neutral place....there is no good
and evil, just order and disorder......with disorder being avoided by
all systems and we should understand that..... all systems attempt to do
is maintain their systems by the consumption of resources.... in other words,
systems attempt to maintain order and avoid disorder and we should do the same.....

but we can make value judgements unlike any other aspects of systems.....
unlike any other system, we can make a judgement about the value of
a system, even if we don't have a standard in which to do so....
the only standard I can see is this, is this system worth the amount
of resources we put into it to maintain its order?

much to think about.....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6040
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new philosophy

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:38 pm

we have two different types of systems... we have biological
systems and we have non-biological systems......... they are the same
except that they require different types of resources to maintain their
existence, their order.... non-biological systems such as the solar system
requires resources such as gravity and electromagnetic, the fundamental
systems/forces of the universe to maintain their order, their existence.........
we humans, biological systems require energy, water, sun, air, to maintain
our existence, our order...........but in terms of our operation,
we operate and exist the same way

so how are we to make judgements on other systems?

we cannot make a judgement about non-biological systems like the solar
system because it cannot exist any other way.....it didn't have any conscience
choice or desire to exist or to maintain in any other way... it must be what it must be....

biological systems such as ourselves need conscience to be able to judge ourselves,
a dog system or a cat system or a bee hive system cannot make judgements about
themselves, they don't have the separation needed to be able to make such a judgment
about their own existence.... but human systems, we can make such judgements
about ourselves and about the systems we have created such as our political systems
or our economic systems.....I can value, judge a system as to being worth the effort
and time and money and energy needed to maintain that system.....so how
do I make such a judgement?

what criteria would I use to make a judgement about systems and especially
such systems such as political systems and human systems?

we can judge such matters in several terms such as resources used, time
and energy usage..... so we can judge a system on how much or how many
resources it uses.... as resources are finite and limited, we cannot maintain
a system that uses a vast amount of resources for a limited amount
of return.... so in other words.... capitalism uses up a vast amount of resources,
and does the amount of resources used benefit enough systems as to make it worth
its effort..... I say no.... the wealthy get rich, but not enough people get enough
return from capitalism to justify it existence..... capitalism is not cost effective
to justify its existence..... it benefits the minority but not the majority and thus
isn't worth the time, money, effort, resources, and energy we put into it to maintain
its existence.... capitalism should be eliminated as not being worth its effort...

as democracy does benefit the majority, it is worth the effort, it is worth
the resources we put into it to justify its existence...

so should we as the 45 administration justify the existence of programs
such as meal on wheels and feeding the children on a value judgment such
as we used on capitalism......how would we justify programs like meals on wheels
and feeding the children in terms of systems and their use of resources?
the point of a system, any system is to maintain its existence and increase
it order or avoid disorder..... we can say, given the resources needed to maintain these
programs and the benefit they give, they are worth the effort and energy and time spent
on them because they maintain and increase the order of the system, both in a
personal and a system wide sense.....remember, systems are not only huge in size
like solar systems and galaxies but small in terms of humans and dogs and cells and
atoms... we must account for both the large and the small in any accounting
of a review of any system as to whither it has any value........
meals on wheels and feeding children systems help maintain the order
of our system by keeping all parts of the system healthy... for any system to
survive it must keep its part viable... in other words, if enough parts of the system
go to disorder, it risks the viability of that system...... if a car runs and runs nicely,
is allowed to have parts to become disorder and thus not work as well, the car becomes
disordered enough to stop working... if we allow the starter motor to stop and the
wheels to become disordered and the spark plugs not to work, if enough of the car
parts are unable to work, to become disorder enough the car will no longer work...
and this is true of any system... if enough parts of that system become disorder enough
the system will fail.... if enough cells in a human being become disordered enough
with say, cancer cells, the human body will fail and stop.. it will die.. so it is true
of any system.. we must keep the parts of the system working, so to maintain
the viability of any given system.....keeping meals on wheels and feeding the
children programs help keep the overall system working and that is the criteria
we must used..... how do we keep the system working? how do we maintain
the order of the system, so the system will keep working..... that is the question
we must keep asking ourselves........how do we keep the system working
and in order?

so in terms of government, whose idea's make more sense, the GOP or
the democrats? Clearly it is the democrats as democrats are trying to
maintain the order of the system and the GOP is trying to remove
resources from the system and it the GOP succeeds in removing enough
resources from the government, as with ALL systems, it will become
disordered and will begin to fail... you must to maintain any system,
keep resources going to that system to maintain its order......
and as we have greater and greater number of people in our system,
just to maintain the current standard of our system, we need to
increase the amount of resources going to that system, that is basic
systems 101.... the larger the system, the larger amount of resources that
system needs to maintain that systems order..... if all you do is maintain
the amount of resources for the system to work at 20 people and the system
has 25 or 30 or 50 people, then the system cannot function and will fail...
resources must increase with every increase in size of the system... that
is the law of systems..... you must increase the size of the amount of resources
for any increase in size of the system or the system will become disorder and
if it becomes disordered enough, it will fail.... and our system of government
is becoming disorder because we don't have enough resources going to
the government/system to allow it to maintain its order....that is the real
reason why government is becoming disorder... it doesn't have enough resources
to maintain itself at its current level....it is becoming harder and harder to
keep up with a growing population without any increase in resources to
account for such a growth of population.......

so we must begin anew in our understanding of the universe and
the systems in our universe... we must think of everything in terms
of systems and resources to maintain the order in that system......

this is the new philosophy... thinking about the universe in terms
of systems and thinking about the resources to maintain that
system at its current level of order... we must avoid falling into
the trap of allowing disorder to enter our system because every time
we allow disorder, we weaken the system, our system to the possible
point of disorder and possible failure.........

it is a new way to look at things.....
how to maintain order in a system.....
that is our new criteria and that is our new philosophy....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6040
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new philosophy

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:10 pm

The new vision of the universe is to see the universe as a series of systems,
most systems are out of our reach..... We cannot influence the solar system
and we cannot influence those forces that help maintain those systems like
gravity and the strong nuclear force.....we can influence smaller systems and
influence the forces needed to maintain those systems... we can influence
smaller systems like our bodies and the animals and the land, sea and sky
of planet earth... we can change or modify any of those systems because
we have the power and the resources to make changes....which leads us to
the understanding that a key aspect of systems is the resources part of it....

in thinking about systems, we must always be thinking about the resources
needed to change or influence or to maintain any given system....
in systems understanding, one of the principle aspects is thinking about resources....
another aspect of thinking about systems is time.....in systems understanding,
time is just another resource, just like space .......

I am a system and as such, I must think about time as a resource and I must
think about space as a resource.....and any biological system that can reason,
must consider time and space as resources, no different then thinking about
food and energy as resources for system understanding.....if we are to maintain
our system which we call "our way of life", we must begin with a understanding
of how our system works and what resources we use to maintain that system.....

this removes any need for judgment understanding of that system, just an understanding
of what resources a system needs to maintain that system and we must understand
that the health of any system lies in maintaining the health of all aspects of that system....

so within a human being, we have a digestive system which takes care of digesting
food and reducing it to waste, what if one part of that system, the stomach, has
issues.... say, ulcers.... stomach ulcers... that one aspect of the digestive system suddenly
becomes compromised, becomes less efficient, no longer works as well, that in turn
compromises the body ability to be efficient, compromises my ability to eat and I get less
sleep because I lay awake at night in pain... suddenly one part of my digestive system
creates a system wide problem and that is an aspect of systems.... that they are connected
and one part of the system becomes less useful and more compromised, it threatens the
entire system.... which is why we cannot allow any part of any system to become
compromised and less efficient... the system is connected and no part of the system
operates separately which means when one part of the system is compromised,
the entire system is compromised which means we cannot allow parts of our system
to become compromised and less efficient.... this means in the political system, we
cannot allow parts of the political system to become compromised and less efficient...
we cannot reduce the number of people voting, the way the GOP is disenfranchising
voters... this weakens and makes the system less efficient, it compromises the political
system and any thing that compromises the system, political or otherwise, must be changed
and or modified to make the system stronger.... more voters does make the system stronger
because it gives more people, more of a say in their lives and that engages people in the
system and the more engaged in the system the parts of the system are, the better for
the system......people voting is a resource and resources are what keep a system alive
and moving.....if you disenfranchise enough people, you have effectively have ended
their participation in that system and people give up... that creates a burden on the system
and every single person who gives up creates a bigger and bigger burden on the system...
just like a system that has too many broken parts won't work anymore, any system that
has too many parts not engaged in it, won't work anymore....

too understand society, you have to understand the systems that allow that
society to function..... and if enough systems fail in that society, the system
then fails...... that is the bottom line here..... to improve our society, we
must engage resources and energy to better improve the systems that
allow our society to work.....schools are one such system and the justice system
is another system that needs energy and resources......
reduce the resources each system needs and that system fails and if enough
systems fail, society fails and we go down with that failure........

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 6040
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new philosophy

Postby encode_decode » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:03 am

@ Peter Kropotkin - I just wanted to let you know that I am enjoying this set of posts "a new philosophy".

I totally agree we have quite a problem with capitalism - I have always thought it to be a little too extreme for the well being of the human race. Good democracy has much potential but I am not even sure we have good democracy anymore. So on one end of the stick we have communism and on the other end of the stick we have capitalism and it seems that neither really work. I think there has to be some push and pull between the two. Your idea of systems seems to me to be on a good path to help solve this.

With each member of the globe willing to keep the systems healthy, the human race would start to be like a system that has an immune system.

I am no expert on any of this so I will leave you with my original statement which is where I was going to originally stop but felt the need to say more.

@ Peter Kropotkin - I just wanted to let you know that I am enjoying this set of posts "a new philosophy".
It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
(Anomaly654 - 2017)

But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
- which is to say there is always meaning.

(gib - 2017)

Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
(Myself - 2017)
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