To truth or not to truth, that is the...?

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To truth or not to truth, that is the...?

Postby Gamer » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:35 pm

Because we are human, the consequences of belief supersede the importance of truth for its own sake. This leads to some pretty interesting thought experiments. My takeaway is it becomes an argument for tolerance and psychology. I don't want to expound on any of this but invite y'all to do so.
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Re: To truth or not to truth, that is the...?

Postby Some Guy in History » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:29 pm

You've got to be able to tolerate the intolerable to at least learn from it to bring it to its knees and break it. To that extent, truth is necessary, but in every waking moment of every persons life? No; restore to us our dignity.
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Re: To truth or not to truth, that is the...?

Postby StevenBert » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:39 am

Each of us has the right to say truth or lie, nobody can settle special pattern for he society how to reply or how to behave in certain cases. We are all free.
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Re: To truth or not to truth, that is the...?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:17 pm

Gamer

Because we are human, the consequences of belief supersede the importance of truth for its own sake
.

How are YOU using the word "supersede" here? I know what the word means.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "for its own sake".
But I will agree that sometimes the consequences of belief can be tragic and horrible and there may be no turning back from them; ergo, truth then is both for its own sake and for the sake of what may occur in the present or sometime in the immediate future or even later on. lol


I somehow intuit that you are saying this backwards. The way I look at it truth itself or the seeking of it (or the questioning and examining what one is about to do and its consequences), far more supersedes the consequences or results effected by belief. Truth can be seen like chess in this regard. How many choices or jumps ahead must one see in order to make the right move[s]?


This leads to some pretty interesting thought experiments.


For instance?

My takeaway is it becomes an argument for tolerance and psychology.


Wouldn't arguing for tolerance necessarily depend on what the consequences are?

I
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If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: To truth or not to truth, that is the...?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:52 pm

StevenBert wrote:Each of us has the right to say truth or lie, nobody can settle special pattern for he society how to reply or how to behave in certain cases. We are all free.


I may be wrong but you seem to be using the word "right" in the same way in which people use the term "freedom of speech" as if there are "no holds barred and no sense of responsibility which comes from lying for instance.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: To truth or not to truth, that is the...?

Postby Some Guy in History » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:26 pm

StevenBert wrote:Each of us has the right to say truth or lie, nobody can settle special pattern for he society how to reply or how to behave in certain cases. We are all free.


No you're not. None of us are free. Only the illusion bred by ignorance on a mass scale and packaged for so many at a cost too high to bear enables you to perceive any of it as freedom. Every freedom in this reality becomes and enslavement and a signing out of our senses, our choices, etc. That is the truth of freedom in our reality and out eternal existence. A true freedom does not exist just like pure good and pure evil and pure peace and put nothingness do not exist. How could they when we see all around us the blend of them all as they dance upon each other and through each other and with each other? And that is divine at the same time as not divine and past any religious bullshit sentiment of divinity. What rights do you actually have that you fought to obtain and what rights do you still have after fighting to enslave yourself to the rights you felt the need to fight for?
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Re: To truth or not to truth, that is the...?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:16 pm

Some Guy in History


No you're not. None of us are free.


What do you mean by free - having no restraints at all?

Have you never ever felt any sense of being free - where there was nothing to you but a sense of being and wanting for nothing...knowing that you are simply a speck of existence and embracing that?


What rights do you actually have that you fought to obtain


The right to come to both like and love myself ~ to affirm myself ~~ to know myself no matter what that knowledge brings me. That battle at times still goes on...it is an ad continuum.
The right to embrace the knowledge that I deserve happiness even if it is the simple thrill of observing dragonflies as they dance in the sky. lol


and what rights do you still have after fighting to enslave yourself to the rights you felt the need to fight for


The same. The enslavement only comes when I forget those rights believing myself to be only what others taught me to believe of myself, not being true to my SELF or when I don't give myself permission to falter and to be human.
I am after all human and with faults and weaknesses and despite the fact that i sometimes even now can find that exhausting and terrible as I can be terrible, I disallow the enslavement by laughing at myself and liking that which I find exhausting and terrible.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


I learn as I write!
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Re: To truth or not to truth, that is the...?

Postby Some Guy in History » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:30 pm

What do you mean by free - having no restraints at all?

Have you never ever felt any sense of being free - where there was nothing to you but a sense of being and wanting for nothing...knowing that you are simply a speck of existence and embracing that?


After I put each and every single person into a straitjacket, I realized I couldn't very well put myself in one and perform that impossible act and so had to learn self-restraint of another variety. I couldn't afford to let myself be fooled by their cries to be free from their straitjackets, because the truth of it was that they wanted them on, but couldn't stand the itching, the urges, the wants. To undergo the madness of it all, unrestrained, was not a virtue, but an act of necessity. An act of necessity made possible by equivalent exchange where others put me to the straitjacket in other portions of reality. Freedom and slavery go hand in hand, just like love and hate, evil and good, predator and prey, life and death, order and chaos, balance and imbalance, morality and immorality. The only fallibility of thought at all, which isn't a fallibility at all for what we need and want at times, is to ever construe them as exact and perfect opposites. Perfection and imperfection go hand in hand through it all, too.

Some specks of existence are very powerful and can affect quite a lot. Each one is powerful even in not seeming powerful for the variance and the degree and the equivalence of it all. Have I answered nothing or something? Haven't I answered everything?
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Re: To truth or not to truth, that is the...?

Postby D3R7 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:49 am

Gamer wrote:Because we are human, the consequences of belief supersede the importance of truth for its own sake. This leads to some pretty interesting thought experiments. My takeaway is it becomes an argument for tolerance and psychology. I don't want to expound on any of this but invite y'all to do so.

Like yourself I think a threshold exists, where we can look at the truth as reasonable people and say "Yes, let's teach it".
Do you, by virtue of possessing grace in the natural order of things, feel above and beyond your fellow man?
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