Experiment is nearing completion???

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Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:30 pm

Suppose the word experiment is most often associated with science ... though less prominent ... experiment also figures in philosophy and religion/spirituality.

So what experiment am I talking about?

I'll use simple language so the really bright members of ILP can grasp it. :D

Lest I be accused of posting religious/spiritual comments in the philosophy forum let me say this ... philosophy is all about life ... as are the following comments.

1) I'm warming up to a comment Surreptitious posted 'somewhere' recently ... can't find it at the moment ... paraphrasing ...
"when humans become extinct ..."


2) God put Himself in form ... biosphere ... for two reasons
a)so He could see/perceive Himself.
b)to determine how long it would take for Himself to recognize Himself through the veil of form.

3) Seems both the above purposes are nearing completion ... ergo: extinction is the next logical step ... no?

Felix Dakat wrote in another OP

I agree. Being itself is the the unknowable noumenon the "thing-in-itself".
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby Amorphos » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:16 pm

2)God put Himself in form ... biosphere ... for two reasons
a)so He could see/perceive Himself.
b)to determine how long it would take for Himself to recognize Himself through the veil of form.


An omnipotent deity would imho already know everything including all perceptions and perspectives.

I do think that it [the experiment] is something like why we are here, but God isn’t here is he.
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby humunculus » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:42 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:2) God put Himself in form ... biosphere ... for two reasons
a)so He could see/perceive Himself.
b)to determine how long it would take for Himself to recognize Himself through the veil of form.


Sources for either or both of these assertions?
Who said God put himself in human form? That's proceeding from the anthropomorphic (not to mention naively conceited) notion that the entire incalculably vast universe centers on this one infinitesimal bio-hazard. Where does such a notion get its factual support?

3) Seems both the above purposes are nearing completion ... ergo: extinction is the next logical step ... no?

What are the criteria? How do you know?

Form can be anything or everything: nebulae, meteorites, helium, black holes, red stars, yellow rocks, dark matter....
and all the living organisms that arise on millions and billions of planets, evolve, decline, become extinct, an uncountable number of times and ways.
If the extinction of one species on one planet is of significance to God, it might be any one of the thousands of species humans have recently been,
or are in the process of, or intent on in the near future, destroying.
If an extinction signals the end of an experiment he's conducting, after which God leaves that work-bench forever,
he may be departing right now. Or have already done so, after the last dinosaur bit the ash.
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:03 am

Amorphos wrote:
2)God put Himself in form ... biosphere ... for two reasons
a)so He could see/perceive Himself.
b)to determine how long it would take for Himself to recognize Himself through the veil of form.


An omnipotent deity would imho already know everything including all perceptions and perspectives.

I do think that it [the experiment] is something like why we are here, but God isn’t here is he.


Amorphos ... thank you for the gentle tone of your post ... a rare treat in ILP.

A few comments on my OP:

1) I used simple language because simple language reaches a broader audience.

2) I subscribe to the idiom "Bullshit baffles brains" ... ergo: a brief post

3) Of course ... the "potential" embodied in the content of my OP is certainly not simple or brief.

Let me attempt to illucidate a bit:

In the OP ... "Intelligence: cosmic or personal" Sanjab argues ... if I understand him correctly ... that consciousness is immutable. St Augustine argues for the same ... embodied in the word God.

IF both individuals are right the only difference between them is "Naming Convention".

I am hopeful that you and other readers will look for other similarities in the two OP's.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:08 am

humunculus wrote:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:2) God put Himself in form ... biosphere ... for two reasons
a)so He could see/perceive Himself.
b)to determine how long it would take for Himself to recognize Himself through the veil of form.


Sources for either or both of these assertions?
Who said God put himself in human form? That's proceeding from the anthropomorphic (not to mention naively conceited) notion that the entire incalculably vast universe centers on this one infinitesimal bio-hazard. Where does such a notion get its factual support?

3) Seems both the above purposes are nearing completion ... ergo: extinction is the next logical step ... no?

What are the criteria? How do you know?

Form can be anything or everything: nebulae, meteorites, helium, black holes, red stars, yellow rocks, dark matter....
and all the living organisms that arise on millions and billions of planets, evolve, decline, become extinct, an uncountable number of times and ways.
If the extinction of one species on one planet is of significance to God, it might be any one of the thousands of species humans have recently been,
or are in the process of, or intent on in the near future, destroying.
If an extinction signals the end of an experiment he's conducting, after which God leaves that work-bench forever,
he may be departing right now. Or have already done so, after the last dinosaur bit the ash.


Humunculous ... you are a brutally pragmatic individual ... I say this as a complement ... humanity could use more individuals like you.

The essence of my post and pragmatism are irreconcilable ...

Though ... pragmatism and discovery are brothers/sisters ... one following the other ... at times close behind and at other times ... not.

The good news is the window of discovery remains open.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby humunculus » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:11 pm

Fine.
But do you know what you are talking about?
The only thing people defend more fiercely than their illusion is their denial.
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:21 pm

humunculus wrote:Fine.
But do you know what you are talking about?


I don't know ... with any degree of certainty ... that I don't know. :-)
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby Amorphos » Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:35 pm

that consciousness is immutable.


Firstly may I point out that you didn’t answer my point that God doesn’t require an experiment [even if we do].

I think I get where you are going though, but with one small caveat; we often use the term consciousness as if it is what the soul, spirit or mind is. I think consciousness if part of brain function but that it is our experiencing of that which make consciousness conscious - if you see what I mean. In other words, we could probably make conscious robots, but that doesn’t also mean they will have souls or be experiencing consciousness the way we do. Equally there are life-forms which do experience but don’t have the complexity required to produce consciousness.

The soul is immutable. Consciousness is variable and in many ways.

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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:14 am

Amorphos wrote:Firstly may I point out that you didn’t answer my point that God doesn’t require an experiment [even if we do].


Seems I do that a lot ... probably my arrogance seeping out ... too anxious to get on with pressing my opinion.

Amorphos wrote:I do think that it [the experiment] is something like why we are here, but God isn’t here is he.


Amorphos ... there is no question mark at the end of your statement ... maybe I didn't realize you were asking a question. :-) My answer is below.

Amorphos wrote:I think I get where you are going though, but with one small caveat; we often use the term consciousness as if it is what the soul, spirit or mind is.


When I post in this forum it feels like being in the Roman arena of antiquity... facing the best gladiators of the day ... without a shield or a sword. I lack the formal training/education ... result being I don't have the language required to discuss such incredibly complex issues.

Having said that ... this is the best forum to learn ... expose my wayward thoughts to a learned audience.

I seem to be waffling on my feeling about words ... colored marks on a screen ... do these words in and of themselves have potency or not?

Amorphos let me take a word you wrote several weeks ago ... the word "thang". Reflecting on this word and it's potential potency leads me to believe words in and of themselves have potency. The word "thang" ... for English people ... delivers a slight jolt to the mind ... a slight disturbance to the mind's lethargy. We expect to see "thing" ... what is this "thang" thing? :-)

Ditto for the word "God" ... when we read it we expect it to conform to all the patterns in our memory associated with the word "God" ... that was not my intention. My intention ... perhaps somewhat unconscious ... perhaps somewhat unkind ... was to deliver a gentle jolt to the readers mind ... a slight disturbance to the lethargy of the reader's mind.

Now for a more direct answer to your question ... I believe God ... or Dao ... is here.
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby WendyDarling » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:18 am

Amen. O:)
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby Amorphos » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:44 pm

Amorphos ... there is no question mark at the end of your statement ... maybe I didn't realize you were asking a question.


It was meant [rhetorically kinda]. oh and yea we all speed through post forgetting to answer specific points lol. No issues.
God isn’t here because here isn’t God [or his domain] imho. That’s not strictly true of course, an infinite being is kinda everywhere, but he isn’t physically here. I see it more like 1 [oneness] is the root of all things, so God can be at once here and not here, because when we define anything which is here we are not describing the oneness. My only issue [apart from my being pagan lol [and the living form of the god mercury 8) ]] is that I equally think the oneness is the root of me and you and everything. Not sure how that would sit with monotheists.

When I post in this forum it feels like being in the Roman arena of antiquity... facing the best gladiators of the day ... without a shield or a sword. I lack the formal training/education ... result being I don't have the language required to discuss such incredibly complex issues.


I also came here with no formal training in philosophy. You soon get to learn the lingo.
Yea it is a bit like an arena. My favourite philosopher is Socrates, he used to go around challenging people and I guess he rubbed off on most of us. I take it with a large pinch of salt. …I think actually we challenge ourselves perhaps more harshly? Aren’t we all seeking philosophical honesty?

The word "thang" ... for English people ... delivers a slight jolt to the mind


Haha, well I like america and its culture, I am an NFL fan [of the green bay packers] but also like the new england patriots, I bet that would erk americans too lol.

Now for a more direct answer to your question ... I believe God ... or Dao ... is here.


The chinese bible says in the beginning was the Tao, something which really erks my bones. I like to think of the Tao as a flow and virtually the opposite of the word [of God], though I could be wrong, and who am I to say what the Tao or God is or if they are here.

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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:52 pm

The chinese bible says in the beginning was the Tao, something which really erks my bones. I like to think of the Tao as a flow and virtually the opposite of the word [of God], though I could be wrong, and who am I to say what the Tao or God is or if they are here.


The concept of the Tao(Dao) has very likely been in human consciousness longer than the Western concept of God. People in the west have lots of stuff ... scripture, dogma, doctrine, Nietzsche, lives of the saints and so on to form an opinion concerning the concept of God.

Seems to me ... people in the west who sincerely attempt to form an opinion concerning the concept of Tao(God) woefully lack substantive information.

For example ... some western people expound on the notion of Yin Yang ... as if it could be understood in isolation ... isolated from other ancient Chinese phenomenology such as the Yi Jing. Hogwash!
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby Amorphos » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:18 am

So is ‘the word’ [of God] ~ an absolute, the same as flow?
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby encode_decode » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:42 am

I am going to cheer away on the sidelines here for a bit.
Amorphos wrote:My favorite philosopher is Socrates
That is interesting - Socrates is one of my favorites too.
Amorphos wrote:So is ‘the word’ [of God] ~ an absolute, the same as flow?
I am interested in the answer to this.
Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:40 am

First a few more words on the Dao(Tao) ...

While I have invested 11 years of my life reflecting on ancient Chinese phenomenology, Xunzian described my progress eloquently ... though he wasn't referring to me specifically at the time.

Crazy Shallow

Obviously shallow because of the short duration of my interest and a timid effort at research ... to say nothing of my lack of Chinese DNA/Genetics.

CRAZY ... because my shallow understanding/knowledge not withstanding ... I share my thoughts ... which are obviously virtually worthless.

[quote="Amorphos"]So is ‘the word’ [of God] ~ an absolute, the same as flow?[/quote]

I humbly share my thoughts/opinions ... while making no claim as to their veracity.

1) Is "flow" absolute? Not for me. Flow infers movement ... I don't 'see' any movement. I'm OK using the terms "Immutable Consciousness" and "God" interchangeably. Perhaps people who are comfortable with the word "flow" perceive some movement from the Immutable Consciousness into the mutable and finite human consciousness.

Rather I 'see' humans possessing ... yet consciously unaware of such possession ... the totality ... or at least access to the totality ... of Immutable Consciousness. For me, a growing awareness of Immutable Consciousness occurs when doors are opened that were previously locked. For example ... in REM dreaming. St Augustine argued that we don't actually learn anything during our physical sojourn on this planet ... rather, doors to memory ... that is memory not available for conscious recall ... are opened somehow.

2) Ditto for 'the word' of God. I have no complaint against people who sincerely attempt(ed) ... to better understand God ... better know God ... and subsequently translate(d) their personal findings to the written human word. If all this activity in so many different regions/cultures/times has brought us no better understanding of God ... at least it got us sharing thoughts/ideas about God.
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby encode_decode » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:17 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:When I post in this forum it feels like being in the Roman arena of antiquity... facing the best gladiators of the day ... without a shield or a sword.
That is exactly how I feel - I prefer to minus the Roman stuff and add back in the Greek stuff and keep the best of the Roman stuff. Still I feel I have no shield or sword.
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Dao ... is here
Indeed.
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:at least it got us sharing thoughts/ideas about God
Good answer.
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:39 pm

Amorphos wrote:So is ‘the word’ [of God] ~ an absolute, the same as flow?


Amorphos,

how could flow be an absolute since flow IS fluid?

I suppose that if one believes or "sees" a LIVING GOD, (not living by our standards) then wouldn't God and the word of God be necessarily flow and not absolute?

Didn't God say to Moses from the burning bush: "I Am Who I Am...Becoming.

Becoming connotes flow. If there is a God, wouldn't God and God's word change and be transformed as we are as we gain knowledge of this energy, for lack of a better word. As history changes, flows and ebbs, wouldn't this God and its Logos necessarily change to?

Perhaps the god which we "see" is the god which is becoming within US.
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If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby Amorphos » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:49 pm

Amorphos,

how could flow be an absolute since flow IS fluid?

I suppose that if one believes or "sees" a LIVING GOD, (not living by our standards) then wouldn't God and the word of God be necessarily flow and not absolute?

Didn't God say to Moses from the burning bush: "I Am Who I Am...Becoming.

Becoming connotes flow. If there is a God, wouldn't God and God's word change and be transformed as we are as we gain knowledge of this energy, for lack of a better word. As history changes, flows and ebbs, wouldn't this God and its Logos necessarily change to?

Perhaps the god which we "see" is the god which is becoming within US.


Flow is fluid - which is why I feel the Tao is not the same as the word. The bible is the word of God and not changeable, as is God’s plan, no? We could go so far as to say that if in Christian theology, they are saying that God’s word is God’s word, [~ didn’t they scoff at philosophers!] ergo, you can’t say that and then in the Chinese bible try to compare flow with the absolute word of God.

To make sense Christain theologers would have to choose one way or another. Either God’s word is the word of God with a massive capital G, or that the bible is just another book, so the Tao and every religion under the sun have equal importance.
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby encode_decode » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:48 am

Flow is fluid - which is why I feel the Tao is not the same as the word.
I agree that flow is fluid - but I thought the idea of the Tao is that the combination of yin and yang form the Tao as equal entities. The Tao being the absolute - do you thing the absolute is flowing because that would make no sense to me? Unless the idea of the absolute is that it is forever flowing.
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Re: Experiment is nearing completion???

Postby Amorphos » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:00 pm

I agree that flow is fluid - but I thought the idea of the Tao is that the combination of yin and yang form the Tao as equal entities. The Tao being the absolute - do you thing the absolute is flowing because that would make no sense to me? Unless the idea of the absolute is that it is forever flowing.


I thought that the Tao didn’t have an absolute, and that reality is divided in two at root. Taoists I’ve spoken to don’t speak of a one, they speak of a duality, then if they consider anything beyond that they get into Buddhist notions of emptiness.

In other words existence [not reality itself] is divided into two, but as everything then contains a duality you have to find the flow/Tao in amongst that chaos. If it were absolute like the word of God, existence would move, expand and generate in exact proportions, 1 then 2 and so on and so forth.

Tao is likened to the wind/weather, because it is not absolutely this then absolutely that.

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