Paradox of vu

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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:28 pm

Two hypothetical scenarios:

Scenario One

A charismatic leader surfaces on the international scene ... issues a two page communique to all people in the world 7 billion plus people.

Page One

I have a dream ... for a better world
A better world for you ... and for me
I have a plan ... to make this dream come true
A better world for you and for me
I want you all to join me in making this dream come true.

Page Two

Trust me



Scenario Two

Page One

I have a dream ... for a better world
A better world for you ... and for me
I have a plan ... to make this dream come true
A better world for you and for me
I want you all to join me in making this dream come true.

Page Two

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace, you
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world, you
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Meno_ » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:59 pm

And the beat goes on, look what happens to charismatic people: the history full of accounts of their assasinations, murder, suicide, crucifixion.

The wise ones like Buddha are smart enough to
duplicate themselves into myriad bodshivatta, and buddhas so as to make themselves invisible. They are now, and then were egoless. Western civilization has to empty out which presents a huge problem for them in accountability, whereas in the East, no account of who they ever were, there is nothing to empty out there.

Here, it presents a dangerous situation, paradoxical and self destructive in others' estimation.

But Buddhism can't make it here, didn't Zen has a chance if strictly adhered to.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:26 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:IMO Amorphos is a serious thinker ... he wrote in another OP
Take away the roads, then people cannot go there

What else is there to say? In a causal universe people become criminals and then often get worse, yet if the same individual were given an alternate route, they wouldn’t have gone down that road in the first place.

All ‘evil’ and all crime, are wrong roads and not wrong people.


How many roads would be closed if competition was virtually eliminated?

Amorphos is one of the more intelligent people here. However I am more impressed by his discussion of consciousness than the quote you list here. The ephiphany you listed I discovered around the age of 4, it's like 2+2=4, it's really nothing advanced. And that is what I mean by humanity being 5000 years behind me...they can't even understand that criminals are people just like you and me.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:27 pm

If someone kills 5000 people, people say how evil and deranged the person is, yet people vote for politicians that carpet bomb civilians like no tommorow and don't even bat an eye. It's a sick and sad world
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:28 pm

If you kill one you are a murderer, if you kill 100 you are a loon, but if you kill 1000 you are a soldier and 1 million they call you Yahweh.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Meno_ » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:51 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:If you kill one you are a murderer, if you kill 100 you are a loon, but if you kill 1000 you are a soldier and 1 million they call you Yahweh.



Stalin said, 'To kill one man is a tragedy, but to kill a million men is a statistic'. Therefore his godly claims fit your description.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:48 pm

A charismatic leader ...
There's your problem.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Some Guy in History » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:01 pm

Yeah, but what did they actually know about intent, public satisfaction, diplomacy, etc.?
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Gloominary » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:12 am

@encode_decode

Thanks, I hope I find some relief from my sinus condition too.
When I'm strict with my diet and lifestyle I'm able to significantly improve it.

If you want to get paranormal about it, deja vu could be past life experiences that're similar to present life experiences (sorry if someones brought that up already).

At the other end of the spectrum, it could just be a brain malfunction.
The chemicals that give you a sense of familiarity accidentally get dumped into your brain at an inappropriate time, like when you've done something for the very first time.

There's no reason for this accident, it's not that you've dreamt about a similar event before, or predicted it, or a partly forgotten memory, your brain just randomly got flooded with familiarity chemicals giving you a false sense of having been through something you've never been through before, because brains can be like that, they can just totally malfunction for no reason once in a while, like a glitch.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:34 am

Gloominary wrote:@encode_decode
If you want to get paranormal about it, deja vu could be past life experiences that're similar to present life experiences (sorry if someones brought that up already). <-- Not to my knowledge - so thank you.

At the other end of the spectrum, it could just be a brain malfunction.
The chemicals that give you a sense of familiarity accidentally get dumped into your brain at an inappropriate time, like when you've done something for the very first time.

There's no reason for this accident, it's not that you've dreamt about a similar event before, or predicted it, or a partly forgotten memory, your brain just randomly got flooded with familiarity chemicals giving you a false sense of having been through something you've never been through before, because brains can be like that, they can just totally malfunction for no reason once in a while, like a glitch.

Now we are on to something - I appreciate that - this will allow me to formulate something more substantial relating back to the "Paradox of the sensed" including some paranormal stuff. Brain malfunction is very likely. But it is your last paragraph that gives me the insight.

:D

Gloominary wrote:Thanks, I hope I find some relief from my sinus condition too.
When I'm strict with my diet and lifestyle I'm able to significantly improve it.

I wonder whether it has anything to do with histamines in food.

:-k
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:26 pm

I remember about 10 years back we rode into some beach town area in Massachusetts. I can't even recall the name of the place now.
I love the beach and the ocean. It was summer. I was relaxed and content. But it couldn't have been or could it have been that but who knows? It might have been that with a part of something more. I'm a skeptic.

This feeling came over me all of a sudden. I had never experienced it before. I see many things as being beautiful but the sudden sight of this area translated into something beyond the beautiful. It really was a feeling or a sense of being swept away by the knowledge of "having been there before" even though I knew I hadn't ever been there. It was like some strange familiar sensation, like having come home. It was so familiar and yet on a higher consciousness level, I knew I hadn't been there. It was a really profound moment and sensation. Normally beauty doesn't leave me disturbed but it wasn't a negative disturbance-it was just some kind emotional upheaval. I know that sounds weird. Shivers...

I realize that perhaps at times we may have this experience because our brains and our minds pick up on things which we observe in a book, magazine, tv program ~~ whatever ~~ or pick on things which we hear but our conscious level doesn't really see or hear them at all. They are stored in a part of our brain until something comes along and acts as a catylyst or a trigger. Who knows but that perhaps that was the reason I had that experience. Coming face to face with the physical reality of it - kind of like a mind meld lol - as opposed to just some unconscious click of the camera and unremembered image.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Amorphos » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:23 pm

Ultimate philosophy 10001

Wow I didn’t think you rated me lol
.they can't even understand that criminals are people just like you and me.


That’s what the quote also meant.

Arc

Have you ever wondered if people leave an imprint upon the fabric of reality? How can something occur without doing that? Well I suppose physicists would disagree, but if the original thingness of existence is the philosophers stone, then everything is making an impact upon it - that’s how it all works, info tells the stone what it wants etc. ….sry, in short what I mean is that you could have been there before and re-experienced a previous experience, or even someone else's experience.

its all imprints.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:09 am

I turn 42 today - I have to go and help a friend dig a trench to run data and power - so I am going to be absent for around 6 - 12 hours. I have read all the posts and will be back to respond. I hope you all have the type of day that you enjoy.

See you all soon.

:greetings-cya:
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:33 am

@ Arcturus Descending - thanks for sharing your experience - I found it most interesting.
Arcturus Descending wrote:This feeling came over me all of a sudden. I had never experienced it before. I see many things as being beautiful but the sudden sight of this area translated into something beyond the beautiful.
This sounds like a real "WOW" moment but an internal "wow" if that makes sense. I enjoy these types of sensations - I have some of the beauty ones that are not associated with vu but instead my other senses including higher ones. It is really difficult to explain. Your experience transported me to a different time and place.

Arcturus Descending wrote:It was like some strange familiar sensation, like having come home
I have had this before - a very strong feeling of it.

Arcturus Descending wrote:Normally beauty doesn't leave me disturbed but it wasn't a negative disturbance-it was just some kind emotional upheaval
Another wow moment - I have these memories from my childhood that are so much brighter than that of other memories - vivid. What you explain is certainly a paradox of some sort. I like the way you wrote that. Disturbed by beauty - not negative - rather an emotional upheaval.

Arcturus Descending wrote:Coming face to face with the physical reality of it - kind of like a mind meld lol - as opposed to just some unconscious click of the camera and unremembered image.
Very deep.

Thanks again.

:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:44 am

Amorphos
Even after something dies it has left its impact on the fabric of reality. Like a footprint in the sand. Maybe "its" imprint gets washed away over time but its impact would still remain diluted among the remaining fabric - maybe I am crazy but it makes sense to me.
Amorphos wrote:Have you ever wondered if people leave an imprint upon the fabric of reality? How can something occur without doing that? Well I suppose physicists would disagree, but if the original thingness of existence is the philosophers stone, then everything is making an impact upon it - that’s how it all works, info tells the stone what it wants etc. ….sry, in short what I mean is that you could have been there before and re-experienced a previous experience, or even someone else's experience.

its all imprints.
I have wondered whether people leave an imprint upon the fabric of reality - in fact I have a theory about that - in my giant theory basket. I am sure physics would disagree on a lot of stuff. Philosophers Stone - if my memory serves me - as is above so it is below - or something along those lines - I know there is more to it than that. You seem to have covered a lot of ground Amorphos. I must admit it tempts my brain to start thinking about past lives and all that.

:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:14 am

its all imprints.


The following words were written mid 19th century by George Sand (pen name)

" ... there is a lack of hands to work the land but every profession has a host of aspirants; where human beings, hideously massed together around palaces, crawl and lick the footprints of the rich; where enormous capital, accumulated in accordance with the laws of social wealth ... in a few men's hands, is the prize in a never ending lottery of avarice, immorality, and ineptness ... in this country of lewdness and misery, of vice and desolation, in this civilization, rotten to its very roots, you want me to be a loyal citizen? You want me sacrifice my will, desires, imagination to its needs, being either its dupe or its victim, so the penny I might toss to a beggar will end up in a millionaire's coffers?"


see any "imprints" ???
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:13 am

The unsensed versus the sensed. When the two come together as a collision of the "chaotic infinity" versus the internal conscious space. The "chaotic infinity" being the unsensed - an infinity of potentially "sensible" and "not sensible" impressions from the ultimate reality. When something "sensible" already exists as a part of our conscious space and some new sensible impression is plucked from the "chaotic infinity" a collision happens. Something magnetic; something resonating and when these two impressions overlap a "sense paradox" happens. This "sense paradox" presents itself in the form of a strong feeling.

That feeling people describe when they find their soulmate. That feeling of Déjà vu. Experiences of feelings discussed in this thread . . . I am not sure how far this can be extended but I imagine quite a way.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:21 pm

encode_decode ... seems the scope of your OP is sprouting like mushrooms ... today your choice of "vu" rather than "déjà vu" in the title seems prescient. Déjà vu is a tiny piece of the puzzle.

Amorphos ... with the introduction of the word "imprint" has created a certain resonance with the French word "vu" ... exploding the scope of your OP ... for me ... in a positive direction.

You wrote:

Even after something dies it has left its impact on the fabric of reality. Like a footprint in the sand. Maybe "its" imprint gets washed away over time but its impact would still remain diluted among the remaining fabric - maybe I am crazy but it makes sense to me.


... maybe "its" imprint gets washed away over time struck a chord with me ... for me though ... I think the opposite is sometimes true. Seems to me any repetition of a specific "imprint" increases the longevity of the "imprint".

The above thought prompted me to post George Sand's comments ... I'll repeat them here for ease of reference:

" ... there is a lack of hands to work the land but every profession has a host of aspirants; where human beings, hideously massed together around palaces, crawl and lick the footprints of the rich; where enormous capital, accumulated in accordance with the laws of social wealth ... in a few men's hands, is the prize in a never ending lottery of avarice, immorality, and ineptness ... in this country of lewdness and misery, of vice and desolation, in this civilization, rotten to its very roots, you want me to be a loyal citizen? You want me sacrifice my will, desires, imagination to its needs, being either its dupe or its victim, so the penny I might toss to a beggar will end up in a millionaire's coffers?"


The "imprint" George Sand describes ... mid 19th century France ... seems not only to have survived the past 175 years or so as a "vu" (imprint) ... it seems to have hardened ... as in become permanent ... in human consciousness.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:54 pm

Maybe we have a "paradox of the social sensed" or "social vu".
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Seems to me any repetition of a specific "imprint" increases the longevity of the "imprint".

I really like it - I hope you don't mind I will work it into an example as follows - just for the visual impact:

    Even after something dies it has left its impact on the fabric of reality. Like a footprint in the sand. Maybe "its" imprint gets washed away over time but its impact would still remain diluted among the fabric of reality.

    Conversely it > Seems to me any repetition of a specific "imprint" increases the longevity of the "imprint" < upon the fabric of reality.

    Anything or everything that is alive is constantly modifying and reinforcing "imprints" among the fabric of reality. Like a tree that branches but it's general leafness stays the same.


pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:The "imprint" George Sand describes ... mid 19th century France ... seems not only to have survived the past 175 years or so as a "vu" (imprint) ... it seems to have hardened ... as in become permanent ... in human consciousness.

I do have some thoughts on this for example, some things would have changed but most would have stayed the same. As per the quote of George Sand's it seems that it does resemble the modern day in a few ways; where the palaces are even more numerous as well as more diverse*; the people still envy the rich**; the wealth is still in a few men's hands; avarice, immorality, and ineptness remains***;

* by this I mean the old palaces are still there but new palaces have arisen like palaces of corporation.
** Even at the expense of there own happiness.
*** People want everything the easy way these days. Sometimes they will break the law to achieve it.

In some ways it seems we have reached a cultural and spiritual entropy by keeping specific "imprints" strong. Hence a paradox.

:banana-dance:

Enter the new banana republics - makes you wonder that is for sure.

:-k
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:51 pm

I also think emotions warrant some thought given that mental processes are essential to forming any given emotion in the first place.

We have been talking about strong feelings - these feelings could lead to emotions that are in themselves strange.

:-k

I guess you could say anything is up for analyses. Anyway I am just spraying my thoughts around here as someone else I know puts it.

:lol:
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:39 am

encode_decode wrote:I also think emotions warrant some thought given that mental processes are essential to forming any given emotion in the first place.

We have been talking about strong feelings - these feelings could lead to emotions that are in themselves strange.

:-k

I guess you could say anything is up for analyses. Anyway I am just spraying my thoughts around here as someone else I know puts it.

:lol:


encode_decode ... spraying thoughts ... like scattering seeds ... has merit.

Yet ... the 'spraying' is a two edged sword.

How so?

In spraying additional thoughts you distract readers from the 'beauty' of your previous post ... and that wasn't your intent ... was it?
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:47 am

Oh I don't know . . . I think it has merit . . .
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:In spraying additional thoughts you distract readers from the 'beauty' of your previous post ... and that wasn't your intent ... was it?
I guess I am used to going through the posts that I haven't read but I see what you mean in that a lot of people just read the first and last post in a thread.

I like the duality you present with the double edge sword. But then again it is all one in the same when considering totality.

Take emotions alongside "social vu" - "social e vu" or "social emotional vu" or "social e sense" or "social emotional sense" . . . it could be a part of conscious . . .

When one person is down they tend to bring another person down and when one person is up they tend to bring another person up. You can see this on the mass scale too with the sophism politicians bring to the equation when they speak - thereby making the people feel the upwardness of happiness(albeit temporary) when in fact they have brought the fabric down(not all the way); bringing the fabric down with just enough force to leave a negative impact that they were unaware might happen. Leaving an awkward situation in the wake of nontruths.

Lao Tzu wrote:
SINCERE words are not sweet,
Sweet words are not sincere.
Good men are not argumentative,
The argumentative are not good.
The wise are not erudite,
The erudite are not wise.

The Sage does not take to hoarding.
The more he lives for others, the fuller is his life.
The more he gives, the more he abounds.

The Way of Heaven is to benefit, not to harm.
The Way of the Sage is to do his duty, not to strive with anyone.

Translated by John C. H. Wu, 1961


If people want honest governments then people have to be honest themselves. The way things are now is just that people do not know what to do so they internalize their actions to become self centered instead of selfless.

So as you say:
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:encode_decode ... spraying thoughts ... like scattering seeds ... has merit.

Indeed it has merit - as do you - thank you for the compliment on the other post - most of all thank you for making me think - I think you may have brought my ego down a couple of notches which I am most happy about.

PS: Just in case I give you the wrong impression; I will say this now; I am not offended. I can not imagine being offended by you pilgrim-seeker_tom.

:D
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:26 am

Indeed it has merit - as do you - thank you for the compliment on the other post - most of all thank you for making me think - I think you may have brought my ego down a couple of notches which I am most happy about.


Perhaps progress ... progress as in higher consciousness ... progress as in deeper wisdom ... is conditional on putting one's ego in one's pocket ... if only temporarily.

Reminds me of some thoughts we exchanged recently ... discrete frames of consciousness ... the birth/death dance ... the constipation in the absence of the dance.

I''ll get back to you on your Lao Tzu quote later ... I'm washing the dishes at the moment. :lol:
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby Amorphos » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:35 am

Philosophers Stone - if my memory serves me - as is above so it is below - or something along those lines


The philosophers stone is that ‘which can become anything’ ~ like the empty oneness at the beginnings of all things. as above so below is a contemplation upon its mirror-like aspectation [reflection is akin to duality].

... maybe "its" imprint gets washed away over time struck a chord with me ...


That I would say is what happens to the present, where each moment is washed away. I don’t suppose there would be a beach they all end up at, like a place of all moments. Some eastern scholars suggest each and every moment is an eternity. On the other hand, I also like the notion that everything changes and nothing is permanent [also a kind of eternal, like it just keeps rolling along or something] ~ as you suggest.

Seems to me any repetition of a specific "imprint" increases the longevity of the "imprint".


yes, then perhaps it is so that we become more real the greater the duration of said repetition which elapses. Like how infant to child to adult is that happening. Especially noticeable is the lack of memory we have respective to that duration, like when we are babies.
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Re: Paradox of vu

Postby encode_decode » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:55 am

Awesome pilgrim-seeker_tom. I think we have the metaphorical cogs ticking over in the mind.
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Perhaps progress ... progress as in higher consciousness ... progress as in deeper wisdom ... is conditional on putting one's ego in one's pocket ... if only temporarily.
I believe so.
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Reminds me of some thoughts we exchanged recently ... discrete frames of consciousness ... the birth/death dance ... the constipation in the absence of the dance.
Now that you mention it - it seems to fit in well. It made me smile when I read this.
pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:I''ll get back to you on your Lao Tzu quote later ... I'm washing the dishes at the moment. :lol:
I was adding this quote for intensity - I find connections between it and what we are talking about - in oneness and twoness. But much more - I think we have known the truth for many thousands of years but most of us have chosen to ignore it and make up fantasies to justify actions.

So when dissecting the duality to make it one again - or more wholesome - we have so much rubbish to sift through - even tricks of our own mind. But I like to think we are on the right track.

:lol:

Enjoy the dishes.
Bounded Rationality is always at work - the flow of mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. Possibly and probably more. There are more versions of reality than people.
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